the meaning of Divine Anger or 'ghaDab'

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Mohamed shaksi, May 12, 2016.

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  1. Mohamed shaksi

    Mohamed shaksi New Member

    Atabek is a student of uthaymin and called him Radiallah Anh. I have the screen shot. He did this even after knowing uthaymin attributed direction to Allah in the sense of Makan and Jism. His chubby student even acknowledged it.

    You should open a seperate thread in which people can find his citations.

    Attadonk and his chubby Sikh looking student.
     
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  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    how so?
    you probably did not bother to read. or if you did you didn't understand.
    if neither then you dont know the meaning of tafwid and ta'wil (hint: read the part from sh.fiqh al akbar)

    ----
    whether tafwid or ta'wil anyone who calls that sahih hadith as "silly lies" is donkey and a zindiq.
     
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  3. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    Historically ahl al-sunnah have utilized two approaches to explain the attributes: tafwid and ta'wil. A framework that had been overlooked in this discussion.
     
  4. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    One can summarise, Allah's attribute of anger means His will to punish or His punishing.

    Allah's attribute of mercy means His willing good or His giving good..... and so on.
     
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    and all other verses that recount the terror on that day - these are mutawatir. alas! we have reached a stage where the explicit verses of the qur'an need to be proven as mutawatir.

    the verses that describe the immense horrors on that day are numerous to list here.

    ---
    have you ever seen such horror or expect to say until judgement day?
    and after that day, when will it be seen?

    then why should the following statement seem "silly lies" "idiotic insult to God?"

    "never Angry as on this day and never will be Angry ever after"
    because it means never has the manifestation of His Wrath been witnessed before, and never will it be after.

    ---
    within itself and within that context, the hadith has nothing contradicting nor problematic for pseudo maturidis to throw a fit and insult the hadith - and by implication [al-iyadhu billah] insulting the words of Prophets alayhimu's salatu wa's salam.
     
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  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    so, this hadith is an explanation of the qur'anic verse: surah al-fajr, v25.

    fajr,v25.jpg

    ====
    imam maturidi said, one of the explanations of this verse is:

    ...that is whatever the torment, kings in this world may inflict upon humans - that will never reach the likeness of the punishment Allah ta'ala will inflict upon His enemies in the hereafter, even if it is less.



    maturidi,10-528.jpg
     
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  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is clear that while the objection as stated by nawaz is valid...at the outset:
    in the light of explanations of imams, however, the objection is pointless. it is not that Allah ta'ala changes due to anger - it is just that the consequences of His Anger, manifestation of His Wrath was never before and never will be ever again.

    perfectly consistent with everything else. only people ignorant of aqidah, hadith and tafsir will get into knots over such a simple concept.
     
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  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in umdat al-qari of ayni, 15/304

    "Anger" here means, the consequences of it; and that is His Will to give them punishment.

    nawawi said: "by Anger [ghaDab] of Allah ta'ala, it means what will be manifest as His Retribution to sinners and what they will behold from painful torment, and that horror and terrible events [ahwal] which is witnessed on that day by all those assembled; terror like which that was never seen before; undoubtedly nothing similar to this will have occurred previously - nor will it happen thereafter."


    umdatqari, 15-304.jpg
     
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  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in dibaj of suyuti, 1/263:

    by Anger, it is meant that what will manifest from Divine Retribution and painful punishment from Him;
    and that which the assembled people will witness from the terrifying happenings and the horror on that day.

    just like Pleasure is manifestation of His Mercy and Benevolence, because it is impossible to attribute Allah ta'ala with actual 'anger' and 'pleasure' [as we understand].



    dibajsuyuti, 1-263.jpg
     
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  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    imam nawawi in his commentary on sahih muslim: 3/68:
    ------------------
    by Anger [ghaDab] of Allah ta'ala, it means what will be manifest as His Retribution to sinners and what they will behold from painful torment, and that horror and terrible events [ahwal] which is witnessed on that day by all those assembled; terror like which that was never seen before; undoubtedly nothing similar to this will have occurred previously - nor will it happen thereafter.

    this is the meaning of "Wrath of Allah ta'ala" similar to His "Pleasure" [riDaa] which is the manifestation of His Mercy and His Benevolence towards those whom He has Willed to give goodness and honour.

    this is because it is impossible [mustaHil] for Allah ta'ala to transform [taghyir] in Anger or in Pleasure.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.


    minhajnawawi, 3-68.jpg
     
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  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    now we have an idea of what "ghaDab" means.
    we also know that Divine Attributes are not subject to change or transformation.

    then, what does this part of the hadith: "never Angry as on this day and never will be angry ever after" mean?
     
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  12. Mohamed shaksi

    Mohamed shaksi New Member

    Beautiful takhreedj from multiple masadir. Djazak Allah.
     
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    thus, brother mohamed posted in another thread is a summary:

     
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  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    sharh al-TaHawiyyah - babarti al-Hanafi, p140:

    -----
    {and Allah ta'ala is Angry and is Pleased, unlike [the anger and pleasure] of anyone else in the creation}

    this is because Allah ta'ala has attributed himself with Wrath and Pleasure [ghaDab, riDaa]

    as he has said: "and the Wrath of Allah is upon them" [surah al-fat'H, v6]
    and he has said: "Allah ta'ala is Pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him" [surah al-mayidah, v119]

    ---
    thus it is evident that He can be Attributed with Pleasure and Wrath/Anger.

    however, His Anger/Wrath and Pleasure do not mean the same as the anger or pleasure of anyone in the creation.

    because anger when said about anyone in the creation describes a state which transforms [taghayyur] the face [because of it] and becomes red [with anger] and the veins on the neck bulge. pleasure means a beaming face and happiness one finds within oneself. Allah ta'ala is transcendent from transformation and changes of state.

    thus we say, the meaning of "Wrath of Allah" means, His Will to Avenge and Divine Retribution for sinners and to send down His punishment; and deal with them as a king deals with those under him, when he is angry.

    the meaning of "Pleasure of Allah" means His Will to give reward for those who obey him and to forgive those who disobey him. and He deals with His slaves, as a king deals with those under him when he is pleased with them - by honouring them and giving them reward.

    we ask Allah ta'ala to be Pleased with us and grant us His mercy.




    thwy,babarti p140.jpg
     
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    minahrawd,p124.jpg


    fiqh al-akbar, and its sharh by ali al-qari (ghawuji edition), p123-124
    ===================

    {His Anger and Pleasure are His Attributes - Attributes without modality [bila kayf]}

    that is, not going into its details whether they are Attributes of Action [Sifat af'aal] or Attributes of Self [nu'ut dhat]

    the meaning is, that the Attribute of "Divine Anger" [ghaDab] of Allah and "Divine Pleasure" [riDaa] are not similar/same as the attributes of all others in His creation. these are Attributes that are not describable [mutashabihat] when said about Allah ta'ala. imam a'azam said this following the general opinion of the elders [jumhur al-salaf]; and many later scholars follow this opinion and they do not explain [ta'wil] that the meaning of His Anger or His Pleasure, is His Will to Avenge or His Wish to give reward; or that it means that it means the consequence of both - meaning punishment and reward.
     
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  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    hadith in saHiH bukhari, kitab al-tafsir, #4549-4550: [aTraf etc are also included in the screenshot]

    bukhari, 4549-4550.jpg

    ====
    imam badruddin ayni explaining this hadith in umdat al-qari, 18/187:


    umdatayni, 18-187.jpg

    attribution of ghaDab on Allah ta'ala is figurative; the meaning is that which entails [consequence] of anger; and that is the meting of punishment.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
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  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    hadith in saHiH bukhari, kitab al-tafsir, #4549-4550: [aTraf etc are also included in the screenshot]

    bukhari, 4549-4550.jpg

    ====
    imam badruddin ayni explaining this hadith in umdat al-qari, 18/187:

    umdatayni, 18-187.jpg


    attribution of ghaDab on Allah ta'ala is figurative; the meaning is that which entails [consequence] of anger; and that is the meting of punishment.
     
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  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    imam bayhaqi in al-asma'a wa'l sifat: 2/480

    asmasifat,bayhaqi, 2-480.jpg


    the explanation concerning "ghaDab" [Anger] is the same as the explanation concerning "sukhT" [Displeasure].



    ====
    and this is explained previously, on p.476-477:

    asmasifat,bayhaqi, 2-477.jpg

    the shaykh said: "riDa" and "sukhT" [Divine pleasure and Divine Displeasure] according to some of our [sunni] scholars are Attributes of Action;
    however, [imam] abu'l Hasan [al-ash'ari] said that they are both related to Divine Will [iradah].

    riDa - or Divine Pleasure - is the Divine Will to give honour to believers and to give reward them for eternity [and everlasting reward];

    sukhT - or Divine Displeasure - is the Divine Will to punish disbelievers and to give them an everlasting punishment; and [for] sinning muslims, punishment until a time He Wishes. [not for eternity for fussaq among muslims.]
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
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  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    tafsir qurtubi, vol.9/p.344 surah al-a'araf, v.152:


    tfsrqrtby 9-344.jpg

    ghaDab [Divine Anger] from Allah means: "His punishment".

    ---


    tafsir kabir, imam razi, vol.22, p.101, under ta-ha, v86:


    tfsrkabir, taha,86.jpg


    ...and scholars have differentiated between rage [ightiyaDH] and anger [ghaDab]; and that Allah ta'ala cannot be attributed with "rage" [ghayDH] and can be attributed with Anger [ghaDab] because, ghaDab [Anger] is the Will to inflict harm on the person/entity who is the subject of that anger [maghDub alayh].

    however, ghayDH [rage] causes change in the one who gets angry - and this is not valid except on bodies, and so also things like laughing [DiHk] and crying [buka'a].


    ======
    in the same aayat, tafsir kabir:

    tfsrkbr, 22-102.jpg


    {Anger from your Lord Sustainer}
    ..scholars have argued that "ghaDab" [Divine Anger] is from Attributes of Action [Sifat al-af'al] and not Personal Attributes [Sifat al-dhat] because the Personal Attribute will not descend into bodies. [that is the effect of the Attribute]


    ====
    tafsir kabir, vol.20/p.125, surah naHl, v.106:

    tfsrkbr, 20-125.jpg

    {and upon them Anger from Allah} meaning Allah ta'ala has commanded that they be punished.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
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  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    brother shaksi answered it in brief here.
     
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