Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by AR Ahmed, Apr 4, 2023.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    so according to irfan sahib's group - is jalaali sahib a kafir (blasphemer) or not?

    and all those who awaam and ulema who still consider him sunni - are they too blasphemers - their nikahs invalidated?

    if not, what do we consider someone who hints that a sunni is a kafir (in so many words)?

    is a fatwa some kind of a button - which changes the state of a person? or is it something that describes his state?

    as a favor for the awaam - shah sahib should clarify this - should people consider jalali sahib a kafir or not?

    if he speaks in hints - he seems OK with putting the imaan of so many at risk - why not aar ya paar?
     
  2. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    The above is the key. It will also show us who are the true flag bearers of the Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaah.

    May Allah protect Mufti Jalali sahib from these gundas and keep him steadfast
     
  3. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator


    Question:

    1h30m55s

    (Tasleem Sabri speaking…)

    Huzoor, there are just few more issues. It has been quite late now. We are less in status compared to the AhleBayt, but what are the implications of accusing a Sunni like me, the Ulama or the AhleBayt of being a Shia? Is it not a sin?

    Answer:

    1h31m28s

    (Shah Saheb speaking…)

    [Tr: Implications of accusing a Sunni of being a Shia]

    One who believes in the necessities of Deen, now, to call such a person a deviant, it is one of major sins in the Shariah of Islam. Such a person is stripped of all authorities of giving Fatwa or any verdict. Why is that so? He loses his credibility. I would like to tell everyone this, whoever you talk about in this fashion by calling them Shia, then for as long as you did not clearly find them deviating from any of the necessities of Islam¸ then to say such things about them is utter ignorance and misfortune. It is forbidden and such a Mufti who goes about taking people out of the folds of Islam, he can be condemned. I would like share a piece of advice that if you are in favour of Ahlus Sunnah Hanafi Matureedi to flourish then approach someone who has different ways but not in Aqeedah, but rather in the way he may present himself or has connection with someone which he can fairly justify, then if you still strive for his reform, do not approach him by taking harsh measures, for it will not result positive. People are born free from their mothers’ wombs, they are not born as your slaves nor does it suite you to go about enslaving people and be on their case. If you want to rule over someone’s head then start by approaching his feet, and if the person feels that your intention is not to crush his head but you wanted to massage it then he will allow you. One must firstly feel comfortable with you and know that you are sincere. Understand this much that extremism does not solve anything. There is nothing in division. It is for this reason that I stopped inviting you to conferences because you were being extreme. These were my words during the conference that I need not the chopping block of a butcher but rather the needle of Baba Fareed which can unite the damaged hearts. We need more of those who can unite, and for that, all you need is love and compassion for the Ummah and sincerity. There should no show off. It is only then you start to see the fruits of your labour.

    -------

    Question:

    1h21m19s

    (Tasleem Sabri speaking…)

    Huzoor, apart from the questions I had written down to ask you, you have also answered even those that were further from the reach of my intellect. There are however two minor things I seek clarity on, one that people have been requesting that the Muftis and Ulama should place a verdict on it, why are they shying away from it? Is there no such thing or that the matter is beyond Shariah parameters? How would you respond to things like these that are being said? Would you place a verdict on it?

    Answer:

    1h21m49s

    (Shah Saheb speaking…)

    [Tr: We are not those to cause a fire but those who put it off]

    Sabri saheb, what you have just said. As teachers, we have been teaching the lesson and leave little chance for someone to pose a question. There is something called answering something before it could surface and cloud the mind. What you have asked afterwards is a fundamental question. In this regard, I would like to address those who have asked the question and those youngster Ulama who have resorted to some rebellious measures, do not try so hard to seek personal verdict, otherwise there will be chaos. If we are saying that it is disrespectful then you are wise enough to assess that it is not hard for us to pass a verdict on blasphemy, but we do not need bloodshed nor fitnah and fasaad. Understand the sensitivity of the matter. It would take less than a minute to pass a verdict if required. I know that you put people into fitnah and caused bloodshed among the Ummah. And your mission seems to set this country on fire, it’s not what we do. My father used to say that we are Sayyed, and as Sayyed, if we step into a fire, we transform it into a garden. We are not those to cause a fire but those who put it off. You may call it my weakness but if you have some wisdom then you can understand it from the mere fact that we are calling it an insult and it will not take much to place a verdict on it but we leave it to those who are in proper position to pass the verdict. If they pass a verdict then SubhanAllah, which will save the country from fitnah and the issue will also be resolved at the same time.

    ----
     
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Yeah. If only the Darul Ulooms of Pakistan did their duty and spoke about the issue itself, awam like us wouldn't be talking about personalities. The current Sunniyat dynamics of the subcontinent are programmed in such a way that people talk about personalities not issues, even if they try their best not to want to. Our current elders see it as a salient feature of Sunniyat, not a bug!
     
  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    yeah, at this point, jalaali sahib has become the public face of authentic sunnism (whether he intended it or not) - and it has become essential for him to dig his heels in and stand his ground (easier said than done). May Allah keep him steadfast and turn the tide against the schemers.

    that thought crossed my mind too - "misapply the law against one of their own ranks and see them begging for it to be repealed".

    @AbdalQadir @sherkhan @AR Ahmed

    this is now appearing to be a brazen game of chess - and I am far behind the curve, so henceforth I will refrain from expressing opinions about individual personalities - as my comments are likely to cause confusion.

    wa's salaam
     
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    an utterly disgusting and shameful episode conducted by so-called "tigers" of Ahlus Sunnah

    now the only way for Ahlus Sunnah is if any Allah fearing muftis from the reputable Darul Uloom's of Pakistan issue explicit fatawa stating the proper Sunni aqaid and position and the hukm of Shariah on Jalali, if they have any shame that is.

    i'm hearing conspiracies that it is all a game played by a collaboration of iran and qadianis to repeal the blasphemy laws so that the rawafid can openly conduct their tabarra, and qadianis too can do their thing in peace.

    someone told me, let these so-called flea market peers give audits of their and their institutions' bank accounts and we'll see where they're getting money from.

    someone else said a fatwa from Sunni scholars wouldn't do much. politicians, lawyers, judges, police, commercial peers etc. are all sold out to the european union, ngo's etc. etc. and will only do what their western masters tell them. what happened with Mumtaz Qadri? i replied to the dear brother, that is a separate issue what happens to Jalali. that is up to mashiat of Allah. the police, politicians, mafia etc. can easily even just kill him in a fake encounter, cook up fake cases of narcotics or anything. what ensues with him is up to Allah's mashiat. he's neither the first nor the last person of Islam jailed, tortured, or killed for his faith.

    what the honest fatawa WILL achieve is offer the jahil awam some clarity of the position of the Ahlus Sunnah on the matter, and the proper hukm of Shariah on Jalali, and expose the fake peers - if the muftis have any shame that is.

    i think Muhaddithe Kabeer should step up really and offer a more stronger ruling/position on the matter from across the border. Mufti Nizamuddin should also issue a proper fatwa.

    whoever has a hand in getting Jalali arrested, he is a zalim. period. zalim not just on Jalali, but Ahlus Sunnah as a whole, for sitting in the laps of the rawafid!

    Allah knows the hearts but right now on the outwardly what Jaleeli is doing is following Imam Hussein radi Allahu 3anhu, and what his detractors are doing is... yeah you guessed it!

    here the western media is blasting trump for his narcissism. he's a little fish really

    our subcontinental peers are masters and they could still teach him a thing or two more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
    shahnawazgm and Unbeknown like this.
  7. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    posted


    may Allah protect the mawlana from these low-life juhala
    shia + rawafid + closet tafzeelis all have joined hands to make extra buck.

    pir-i-muridi is dangerous business in indian sub continent.

    this has exposed the fake charlatan characters from real scholars.
     
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    IMG-20200721-WA0005.jpg
    I didn't see in news when Aqdas posted but got this from elsewhere
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  9. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    a peerzada, Jalil Ahmad Sharaqpuri, talking sense and telling other non-aalims how to react:
     
  10. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Furthermore, if I recall correctly a few years ago Shah Sahib were the leading proponents of desisting using Alayhis salaam for the Ahl ul Bayt because it could cause confusion even though there is no real issue in using it. That is how strict they were but today they are happy to give the impression it is okay to label Ahl ul Bayt Ma'sum. In reality it is the likes of Shah Sahib who should be questioned on their stance in this issue and their language. How is it okay to swear at someone's parents in public gathering, what impression does this give. Is this how you do Islah.
    I've just seen a post by one of their learned mureeds and it just highlights what Sh Asrar warns about 'Blind following of your pir'. How can we blame the deos if they do just the same for their elders? We need to be objective and it is the duty of our scholars to explain the masla correctly and not just let personal agendas get in the way
     
  11. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    @Abul Hasnayn. We have listened to this speech but we are not gullible just to take things at face value.
    First Tasleem Sabri was not asking masumama (no pun intended) questions but was trying hard to get Shah Sahib to put a fatwa on Jalali sahib.
    Secondly, Shah Sahib's distinction (or in reality lack of) between ma'soom and mahfuz leads to more questions than it answers. According to shah sahib in reality those personalities that have been termed mahfuz are or can be deemed ma'sum.
    2. Shah labels it kufr to associate khata with the ambiya if it is not qualified. He uses a statement from a scholar for this. We will ask is mukhtar mazhab or an aqwal because when you are addressing the awaam according to Shah Sahib, you only put forward mukhtar mazhab.
    3. As the brothers requested, Shah sahib needs to prove evidences of what is the ruling of someone who associates 'khata' with Sayida Fatima. We need something direct in this regard. A further point to note is Shah Sahib needs to clarify what about using the word 'khata' for Sayida Ayesha as Mufti Hanif Qureshi and his way of bayan was a lot worse. I ask this because Mufti Hanif Qureshi was in the conference with Shah Sahib after this interview
    4.Shah sahib has a sanad of Hadith from Muhadith e Kabeer, who clarified that it was a khata e itjihadi (this is how I understood it from what he said but I might have misunderstood) What do you have to say about Muhadith e Kabeer?
    5. I would like a ruling on Jalali sahib bssed on mukhtar mazhab too so in which case there should be a plethora of evidences for Shah Sahib to present.
    6. Okay, I can't recall a issue here.
    7 and 8: is it just to demand Jalali sahib only present evidences from the khair ul Quroon? As Jalali sahib mentioned could Shah sahib do a better commentary on Pir Mehr Ali Shah's answer to the objections from the shias. After all that is the context in which Jalali sahib made those statements.
    9. How about those scholars who called Jalali sahib all sorts before they sought clarification from him, i.e. concluded he did gustakhi before asking him about it. An additional point here Shah sahib said that it is not appropriate to label sunnis neem-Rafzis (at the behest of Sabri sahib) but how is it then okay to label Jalali sahib a Nasabi and a Kharji.
    10: Shah Sahib's point that associating khata e ijtihadi with syeda Fatima in this issue benefits the rafzis. That makes no sense or at the very least not in relation with the context that Jalali sahib said it.
    11. I agree that in this video that Shah sahib was more measured. However, every other video it has been just swears (including at Jalali sahib's parents). I struggle see what islah Shah sahib are doing.

    All in all the 11 points that you have mentioned that shah sahib addressed, 10 of them are in reality insufficient in addressing the issue. We are not persisting in ignorance, we are trying to be objective. Don't mention hatred because we both know from the latest speeches who is spewing hate.

    @Aftab Malik: I really think you are the one that does not understand this issue. If we accept that Sayida Fatima did know the hadith, then it gives even more credence to Jalali Sahib's claim about Sayida Fatima doing itjihad. It actually weakens Sayyid Irfan Shah's claim that sayyida Fatima did not do ijtihad.

    I don't know how knowing a hadith or not is linked to sayida Fatima's knowledge of the unseen. It is certainly not repugnant.

    This is not a new issue and has been discussed at length by our pious predecessors. These sort of claims that you have just brought up are questionable at best.
     
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    According to fuqahaa's opinion that makes her kafir and murtad, but why bother with her when you can spend months drawing circles around gullible awam.
     
  13. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran


    Is this true? I can't see this news anywhere else.

    ...and I presume nothing has yet happened to rafizi "kanjari" lawyer who first calumniated Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (RadiAllahu anhu)
     
  14. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    I think Huzoor Muhaddith-e-Kabeer has summed this up correctly, even though many of these 'peers' disagree with him. Let us see what is wriiten in Sahih Bukhari first related to this subject (take note of the text in RED).

    Sahih al-Bukhari 4240, 4241 Narrated `Aisha:



    Some translations use the word "unpalatable" instead of angry, but nonetheless we can see that there is a disagreement with Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddique (ra) here.

    I have quoted the above as some of the 'ulema' and some people have been stating that Sayyida Fatima (ra) had accepted the decision when she heard about the hadith and since she was not aware of the hadith at the time therefore it cannot even be termed as khata-e-ijtihadi; however this is not what has been narrated by Sayyida Ayesha (ra) as documented in Bukhari Shareef.

    I have repeatedly seen open usage of the term "Khata-e-Ijtihadi" when it comes to Sayyida Ayesha (ra) and Hazrat Ameer Muawiya (ra) for example pertaining to Siffin and none of these 'peers' have any objections whatsoever. If we go by Irfan Shah sahibs logic then we can also see the hadith where the Messenger of Allah (Swallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) has mentioned that Sayyida Ayesha is the most beloved to him, so why isn't he so pumped up defending her against all those who have labelled khata-e-ijtihadi against her?

    As the brothers have pointed out before it neither takes one out of the folds of Islam nor is it a gustakhi if khata-e-ijtihadi is mentioned against a non-prophet. In fact the disagreements between Sahaba are best not to be mentioned and such topics rather only be brought up by ulema when addressing Rafdi's and their like.

    We ought to remember that extreme caution needs to be exercised when any Sahabi are mentioned. And these 'peers' need to be extremely cautious before labelling another Muslim as a kafir, a heretic, verbal abuse etc lest the kufr returns on them!

    And more importantly we are not going to be questioned on the day of Qiyamah on our belief regarding Fadak/Siffin etc, so its best for us to concentrate on protecting our own Imaan rather than blowing such incidents out of proportion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    https://www.change.org/p/prime-minister-pakistan-imran-khan-arrest-prosecute-ashraf-jalali

    That is EXACTLY what Munawwar shah and co allege.

    Notice how Irfan Shah and his associates are speaking the exact same language of Shias.

    These mean people have made accusations of gustakhi a light matter and a means to settle personal scores.

    They're all boys who cry wolf.

    I wonder if making light of gustakhi rulings itself counts as gustakhi!
     
  16. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Jalali sahib has been arrested.

    I'm disgusted. That these people turned such a simple issue into this. It was badly worded at worst and was nowhere near fatwas of gustakhi and kufr.

    An innocent sunni scholar in police custody because "ulama" don't understand basics or let personal grudges get in the way of legal rulings.
     
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  17. Abul Hasnayn

    Abul Hasnayn musjidulhaq.com

    https://musjidulhaq.com/2020/07/20/sayyed-irfan-shah-mashhadi-audio-transcription-on-the-status-of-sayyidah-fatimah-pertaining-to-the-issue-of-fadak-13-july-2020/

    Downloadable PDF available at above link.




    "Hujjat ul Islam Pir Syed Irfan Shah Mash'hadi exclusive explanation on folllwing issues:-

    1- What is Mahfooz & Ma'soom and its difference

    2- Associating the word Khata with the Prophets of Allah علیھم اکسلام

    3- What is the Hukum on using the word khata for Sayyida Fatima رضی اللہ عنھا

    4- Did Sayyida Paak do Ijtihad on the Issue of Fadak

    5- Is a ruling given on Aqwaal or Mazhab e Mukhtar

    6- The reality of the hadith of Fadak

    7- How to answer the Rawafidh on the issue of Fadak

    8- How to defend the integrity of the companions without having to dishonour the Ahlul bayt

    9- How young people today are moving further away from knowledge & rushing to conclude issues

    10- Those fighting to prove Khata are in reality promoting the Rawafidh

    11- Islah to Dr Ashraf Asif Jalali Sahib

    I would request every person to take time and listen to the whole interview with an open heart. All questions & issues have been answered.

    Not listening and persisiting in ignorance is only hatred and not having the will to accept the truth."
     
  18. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Sayyid Muzaffar shah sahib's repugnant statement towards Huzoor Muhaddith e Kabeer `Allamah Ziya al Mustafa sahib damat barakatahum ul aliya shows he has little to no respect for elderly scholars and disregards his own elders as is the habit of the two Shah sahiban.
     
  19. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    There are no points of contention from Shah sahib other than calling Mawlana jalali names and insults. All of your arguments are based on emotion. No dalil for it.
     
  20. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Veteran

    Note that Muzaffar shah sahib tried to compare the term baghi with khata. However Alahazrat رضى الله عنه used khata for sayyidina amir muawiya رضى الله عنه .

    (24:09)

    Baghi has come in arabic as a term to sometimes describe ijtihad and is now in urf referring to rebellion (a`udhubillah) whereas khata itself in urf refers to ijtihadi although khata has both meanings as well

    Muzaffar shah sahib quotes sadrus sharia رحمة الله تعلى عليه



    (‎عرفِ شرع میں بغاوت مطلقاً مقابلۂ امامِ برحق کو کہتے ہیں ، عناداً ہو، خواہ اجتہاداً ،

    ‎ان حضرات (حضرت امیر معاویہ، حضرت طلحہ و حضرت زبیر ) پر بوجہ رجوع اس کا اطلاق نہیں ہو سکتا،
    ‎گروہِ امیرِ معاویہ رضی ﷲ تعالیٰ عنہ پر حسبِ اصطلاحِ شرع اِطلاق فئہ باغیہ آیا ہے،
    ‎مگر اب کہ باغی بمعنی مُفسِد ومُعانِد وسرکش ہو گیا اور دُشنام سمجھا جاتا ہے،

    ‎اب کسی صحابی پر اس کا اِطلاق جائز نہیں

    ‎(بہار شریعت،حصہ 1، امامت کا بیان)

    Shah sahib states one cannot do nisbat of khata to even later sahaba رضى الله عنهم

    But alahazrat رضى الله عنه writes about sayyidina amir muawiya رضى الله عنه in Fatawa Ridawiyya Sharif volume 29 :

    ہم اہلسنت ان میں حق،جانب جناب مولٰی علی(مانتے)اور ان سب کو مورد لغزش)بر غلط و خطا اور حضرت اسد اللہّی کو بدرجہا ان سے اکمل واعلٰی جانتے ہیں مگر بایں ہمہ بلحاظ احادیث مذکورہ(کہ ان حضرات کے مناقب و فضائل میں مروی ہیں)زبان طعن وشنیع ان دوسروں کے حق میں نہیں کھولتے اور انہیں ان کے مراتب پر جوان کے لیے شرع میں ثابت ہوئے رکھتے ہیں،کسی کو کسی پر اپنی ہوائے نفس سے فضیلت نہیں دیتے۔اور ان کے مشاجرات میں دخل اندازی کو حرام جانتے ہی

    What then will Shah sahib's fatwa be on AlaHazrat quddisa sirruhu?!
     

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