that is probably because of your servitude to the word. being adroit with words is not directly proportional to comprehension, as it has been unfortunately demonstrated in your case. your analogy - the imaginary dialogue - is also flawed; like tariq ali basing his hatred of islam on some foolish man of religion he had encountered in HIS childhood. this counterfeit experience, he tries to pass off as a universal truth. i am sorry for drawing parallels here, but what option do you leave us when you show scant respect for our elders as a rule? [though you suddenly seem to develop a great esteem for imam ibrahim nakha'i because he allowed nabidh!] --- imam shafi'yi's poem is thus:kullu'l `ulumi siwa'l qur'ani mashghalah illa'l Haditha wa `ilma'l fiqhi fi'd deeni al-`ilmu maa kaana feehi qaala Haddathana wa maa siwaa dhaaka waswaasu'sh shayaTeeni all sciences other than that of qur'an is an indulgence and except Hadith and the knowledge of religion even within that, true knowledge in that is when it is [accompanied by] 'it was narrated us..' other that, everything else is a whisper of satan. you should belch at your incomprehension. i pity your students who endure your poetry lessons - the meaning is contorted in your version of the verse because you have skipped lines. in the above lines, imam shafiyi did not deny 'other' knowledge; he simply said that 'as far as i am concerned all branches of knowledge other than qur'an and hadith are a mere indulgence.' even though he says 'fiqh' here, he uses it both as a branch of knowledge [fiqh] and in the literal meaning: 'understanding'. he simply valued qur'an, hadith, fiqh and islamic knowledge in general more than anything else. and the final line about everything else being 'a whisper of satan': sad that an english teacher fails to understand figures of speech. i can imagine someone teaching shakespeare:'all the perfumes of arabia': oh that? shakespeare was a liar. how did he ever count the number of perfumes in arabia? if he did not enumerate them, then how could he say 'ALL'? and is he [the bard] a fool? it is common sense that nobody washes blood with perfumes. show her the basin mate.. ----- the rest of your argument needs to go down the drain with lady mac's handwash... as usual, your incomprehension coupled with your disdain for reason makes you hallucinate. and to find an excuse for a 'proof', you just quote whatever suits your whims. and not content with it, you twist it.
akh naqsh, my point is that science (technology production) and islam are sadly unrelated. where in the awliya' is the master of pure mathematics, the oracle of medicine, the sage of electrical engineering? we search in vain but there is richness of this in men like ibn siina whom are shund by ghazzali. the sunnis accuse the shi'i of kafir-ising the Companions but the Ahmad b Hanbal kafir-ised millions upon millions upon millions of muslims: man Qaala al-quraan makhluuq fa-huwa kaafirun. whoever says the qur'an is created is an unbeliever. thus Ma'moon the khaleefah of the muslims (786-833 ce) who actively promoted qur'an is created, wrote 4 epistles to the fact...was the wun under whose aegis science blossoms, who obtains greek manuscripts and has them translated and the 'muslim' scientists effloresce. it is arrant deceit to say that islamic revelation led to scientific revolution..what a load of old crock. and so many who promote islam do so by citing al-Razi - the same who writes: mod: [blasphemous passage deleted. we get the point. one can see a drunk and understand drunkenness without touching the drink...if you get my draft] aha' Reason logic. on this forum, one tawkt about reasonableness steering us to the tru understanding of e.g. "how how the earth is made flat" Can I desist citing Umar al-khayyaam that superlative mathematician, astronomer excelsior... If Madrasahs of those drunks Became the educational institutes Of teaching philosophy of Epicures, Plato and Aristotle; If Abode and Mazars of Peer and Dervish Is turned into research institutes, If men instead of following blind faith of religion Should have cultivated ethics, If the abode of worships were turned into Centers of learning of all academic activities, If instead of studying religion, men Would have devoted to develop mathematics - algebra, If logic of science would have occupied the place of Sufism, faith and superstition, Religion that divides human beings Would have replaced by humanism… Then world would have turned into haven, The world on other side then would have extinguished The world would then become full of Love-affection-freedom-joy, And there is no doubt about it."
brother kunh, again what point are you trying to make my pointing out that people like ar-Razi were considered heretix by some?
who said aught taking deen from them? why do people twist? 'why as muslims should we care' do you take an interest in the natural world or the world of linguistics? if you do =, then Noam's your man. Ask the people of the Dhikr if you don't know. This verse used to mean the people of the book before this meaning was found to be embarrassing and then used only by the muqallids (I speak non-derogatively) as the muslims scholars. one goes to the expert scholar all the same if he's muslim or she's not. the qur'an says the earth is flat..but people say well flat doesn't really mean flat because now our experience overrides the meaning. we know invest the quranic words with different senses. I ask about production of technology, and people start talking about permission... well siidaani (my wolves) I was talking about 'ilm and the possessors of knowledge. and david attenborough knows more than any muslim scholar I know of. please correct me. unless of course you want to say that 'ilm and deen are the same. therefore mathematics, science, gynecology, natural history is are not 'ilm. David Attenborough demonstrably possesses for more ilm on natural history. he is an aalim in that. those who who know c++, java script are aalims in that. I admit, I almost vomited, as nausea took hold of me.. when I read shafi'i's poem in one of the subki's writings (Tabaqat al-shaafi'iyyah) al-ilm: qur'an sunnah wa fiqh al-diin ...wa kull shay duna dhalika wiswaas al-shayaaTeen. knowledge is quran, sunnah and the understanding of religion and everything else is the whisperings of the devils. Just as you can dismiss suyuTi's blunder with the flat earth as being against sense so in kind is shaf'i's. MuHammad b Abi Bakr al-Raazi..a stupendous aalim in medicine and music therapy yet he denies revelation as 'old wives tales' (wikipedia). btw it's meningless to say no, no, this is ilm shar'i it is meant. oh right. why bother inventing hearing aids because it's really ghayr shar'i..and so are motor mechanics.. if it's only so called ilm shar'i that is lauded...once again we see islam is against science, advancement and technology production. the toothpaste epitomises this. I can see the dialogue. Aalim shar'i: so afzal, why are you in your lab wasting your life on non-ilm.. afzal: well I'm inventing/formulating a substances to clean one's teeth. aalim shar'i: What?! we have the shar'i siwaak..you dare venture to displace it?! TUB! afzal: well I can add siwaak extract.. aalim shar'i: why do you want to change Allah's creation.. a week later (new toothpaste with free brush on the market) aalim shari: you heretic, you destroyer of the sunnah..arrest him forthwith! afzal: but it will augment.. aalimshar'i: what?! are you saying the siwwak is deficient?! Guards! take him to the heretics dungeon along with John Logie Baird who dared to bring Singers into a muslims living room... aalim: oh, and don't forget your toothbrush. do you see how islam is against science, against technology production since the proof is in the pudding....more on this later.
why, as muslims, should we care what naom chomsky or david attenboroughs beliefs are? we dont take our deen from these people? as for ala hazrat azeem al barakat he is a towering MUslim scholar and a wali of Allah and a mujaddid of his century so takling our belief in Allah and making it like his :ra: makes sense! again je ne comprends pas! your comments are often tangential to each other!
david attenborough there are scholars like noam chomsky or biologists, naturalists like David Attenborough, Ibn Siina (a heretic) Muhammad b Abu Bakr a phenomenol scholar, who don't have the belief in Allah such as a scholar like ala hazrat.
innamā yakhsha Allāha min íbādihi’l ulamā’u [Sūrah Fāţir, v.28] verily, those who [truly] fear Allāh among His slaves are the knowledgeable ------------------ innama is for 'hasr' and here it has its effects on a 'jumla'. and jumla is composed of 'fa'ill' and 'maf'uol' ...now, hasr is either upon fa'ill or maf'uol. if it is upon fa'ill then it means 'ulema are the ONLY ones that fear Allah' and if the hasr is upon 'maf'uol' then it means 'ulema ONLY fear Allah and no one else'.... both meanings are correct but the better meaning is the one where the 'hasr' is upon 'maf'uol' because ulema only fear Allah....if hasr is upon fa'ill then it means only ulema fear Allah which in reality does not seem right because there are other non-ulema who also fear Allah.
yes, you are right. i have corrected it; thanks. actually sabir means aloe; a shrub that yeilds bitter juice. ويلبسون جلود الضأن، قلوبهم أمرُّ من الصبر؛ فبي يغترّون
as-salamu alaikum sidi i found this a bit confusing... should it be "their hearts are more bitter than patience; they are heedless of Me" [i've not checked the arabic myself so i'm just guessing]
Ibn Kathir Ibn Kathīr in his Tafsīr: innamā yakhsha Allāha min íbādihi’l ulamā’u [Sūrah Fāţir, v.28] verily, those who [truly] fear Allāh among His slaves are the knowledgeable. That is, those who truly fear Him are the scholars; those who know Him; because it [fear] is as much as the knowledge of the Exalted, the Omnipotent, the Knower – He who has the Perfect Attributes and the Beautiful Names. As knowledge about Him grows in perfection and profoundness, so also do fear and awe amplify and increase. Álī ibn Abū Ţal’ĥah narrating from Ibn Ábbās said regarding this verse: Those people who know that Allāh táālā has Power over all things. Ibn Luhayáh narrates from Ibn Abū Úmrah from Íkrimah from Ibn Ábbās that he said: ‘A scholar [who knows] ar-Raĥmān is, that slave of His, who does not assign any partners unto Him; who is mindful of the permissible and the forbidden; who fulfils His Commandments; and has indubitable faith in meeting Him and that He shall call his deeds to account [on judgement day]. Saýīd ibn Jubayr said: ‘Fear is the barrier between you and your sinning against Allāh táālā.’ Ĥasan al-Başrī said: ‘A scholar is one who fears ar-Raĥmān without having seen Him; one who is inclined towards that which pleases Allāh; and renounces that which angers Him and then Ĥasan recited the verse: ‘Verily, those who [truly] fear Allāh among His slaves are the knowledgeable.’ Ibn Masúūd said: Knowledge is not merely plenty of talk [or copiousness in quoting hadith]; rather it is profuseness of fear. Aĥmed ibn Şāliĥ al-Mişrī narrates from Ibn Wahb reporting from Mālik that he said: Knowledge is not copious amounts of narrations; rather, knowledge is a light, that is instilled in hearts by Allāh táālā. Aĥmed ibn Şāliĥ al-Mişrī said: It means: knowledge is not attained by [merely] collecting plentiful narrations; rather it is that which Allāh táālā has made mandatory to follow – the Book and the Tradition [al-kitāb wa’s sunnah]; and that which has come [to us] from the Companions rađiyAllāhu ánhum and their successors, the Imāms of religion. This is not attained by mere narrations [bi’r riwāyah] and the explanation of his saying ‘light’ is that he means true understanding of knowledgeable matters. Sufyān ath-Thawrī narrated from Abū Ĥayyān at-Taymī from a man [unknown] that he said: It is said that there are three kinds of scholars: - a scholar who knows Allāh and knows the commandments of Allāh táālā - a scholar who knows Allāh but does not know the commandments of Allāh táālā - a scholar who knows the commandments of Allāh but does not know Allāh táālā. the first one fears Allāh táālā and he knows what has been made obligatory and the limits and bounds [of permissible and forbidden]; the second fears Allāh táālā but does know his obligations and the limits; the third knows the obligations and limits but he does not fear Allāh táālā.
Imam Razi Imām Fakhruddīn Rāzī, in Tafsīr al-Kabīr/Mafātīĥ al-Ghayb: innamā yakhsha Allāha min íbādihi’l ulamā’u [Sūrah Fāţir, v.28] verily, those who [truly] fear Allāh among His slaves are the knowledgeable, the learned. The degree of fear is as much as the knowledge of one who fears; the scholar has knowledge about Allāh táālā hence he fears Him and hopes from Him. This is proof that a scholar has superiority on a worshipper [áābid] because Allāh táālā said: inna akramakum índAllāhi atqākum [Al-Ĥujurāt, v.13] the most honorable amongst you are those fear Allāh the most. This demonstrates thas honor and eminence is proportionate to taqwā [or being fearful of Allāh] and fear is commensurate to knowledge. [the more the fear, the greater the honor; and the greater the knowledge, the greater the fear]. Therefore eminence and honor is according to knowledge, not proportionate to deeds. Yes, if a scholar neglects actions, he has tarnished his own knowledge; such that when one sees him [and his deeds not worthy of a scholar] remarks: ‘he would have done good deeds, if he had knowledge’.
this topic was broached in another post which took a different turn and can be found here innamā yakhsha Allāha min íbādihi’l ulamā’u [Sūrah Fāţir, v.28] verily, those who [truly] fear Allāh among His slaves are the knowledgeable, the learned. ---- Al-Qurţubī in his Tafsīr, Al-Jāmiý li Aĥkāmi’l Qur’ān: That is scholars who fear His [absolute] Power. Whosoever realized [by knowledge] that Allāh táālā is Omnipotent, then he is certain that He can punish His slave for sinning, like Álī ibn Abū Ţal’ĥah reports from Ibn Ábbās that he said regarding this verse: Those people who know that Allāh táālā has Power over all things. Rabīý ibn Anas said: He who does not fear Allāh táālā is not a scholar. Mujāhid said: Verily, a scholar is one who fears Allāh ázza wa jall. It is reported from Ibn Masúūd: It is sufficient knowledge to fear Allāh; and sufficient ignorance to be complacent [about Allāh’s threats]. Saád ibn Ibrāhīm was asked: ‘Who is the most knowledgeable [afqah] among the people of Madīnah?’ He replied: ‘The one who fears Allāh táālā the most.’ It is reported from Mujāhid that he said: ‘Verily, a sage, a scholar [faqīh] is one who fears Allāh táālā.’ It is reported from Álī rađiyAllāhu ánhu that he said: ‘He is a true scholar [faqīh] who does not make people to despair from the mercy of Allāh, yet who does not make concessions for them in the disobedience of their Lord; he, who does not make them feel safe from the punishment of Allāh; who is not inclined towards anything other than the Qur’ān; verily, there is no good in worship that is not governed by knowledge; and nothing useful in knowledge that has no understanding; and not [much] use in recitation [of the Qur’ān] that is not accompanied by pondering [on the meaning of verses]. Dārimī on the authority of Abū Muĥammad from Mak’ĥūl: RasūlAllāh şallAllāhu álayhi wa sallam said: ‘The superiority of a scholar upon a [mere] worshipper [áābid] is like my superiority among the lowest amongst you.’ and then he recited the verse: ‘Verily those who fear Allāh amongst His slaves are the scholars’. This is a mursal report. Dārimī said: Abu’n Númān narrated to us from Ĥammād ibn Zayd from Yazīd ibn Ĥāzim who said: my uncle Jarīr ibn Zayd said that he heard Tubaý reporting from Káab: I find the description of a people who obtain knowledge but not to act upon it; they achieve understanding [yatafaqqahun] but not to worship [Allāh]; they seek [to be successful in] this world by [doing] actions for the hereafter; their skin is that of sheep but their hearts are more bitter than aloe [*]; they are heedless of Me, and they seek to deceive Me and I shall put them in a tribulation which shall make even the patient to be perplexed and disturbed.’ Tirmidhī reported this with a marfúu chain from the ĥadīth of Abū Dardā’a like we have written in the introduction of the book. Zamakhsharī said: If you say, what is the reason it has been recited: innamā yakhsha Allāhu [with raf’] min íbādihi’l ulamā’a [with naşb] – that is by Úmar ibn Ábdu’l Ázīz and also attributed to Abū Ĥanīfah, i say: ‘khashiyah’ here is used as a metaphor [istiáārah]; its meaning is ‘he shall exalt them’ or ‘give them esteem’, just as those among men, who are feared and are awe-inspiring are treated. So also He shall exalt the fearful [of Allāh] among men and raise their esteem. ---- * sabir is aloe; and aloe is a shrub which yeilds bitter juice. hence the idiom.
