Sunni Darul Ulooms vs Deobandi Darul Ulooms

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Adam Yahya, Mar 5, 2015.

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  1. Adam Yahya

    Adam Yahya Active Member

    Jazakallah brother. Thank you for the great response.
     
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    if that is a request for information then I don't claim to have it but if that's a sigh of frustration then all I can do is quote the hadith 'Islam began as something unfamiliar and soon will it become unfamiliar again. So glad tidings are for the unfamiliar ones'.

    These thousands of people are being told that it's an admirable thing to lick the boots of and honor the heads of kuffaar, and that honouring the Prophet (peace be upon him) is shirk and other such gumrahis and kufriyaat. This, it seems, was bound to happen.

    AlaHazrat's ('alayihirraHmah) arrival on the scene delayed the process a few decades and gave a haven for the sincere muslims to seek shelter in. After him and his khulafa, as the ummah becomes more and more materialistic and truth more and more precious, such things do not surprise me although they do sadden me.

    This is not to say that sunnis can shirk their responsibilities. I feel that a major reason is that the sunni populace is the least supportive of their ulema of all sects and also a good number of their contributions are diverted to fake leaders, whom learned sunnis disregard and don't count whereas devbandis count every single person who makes their jama'at grow big and look big. They don't care an ounce what anyone preaches or what his creed is, after all they themselves one of the biggest fakes.


    Allah knows best.

    wassalaam.
     
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i was surprised because i *KNOW* someone on the list personally, and also that he is a maududi-jamat veteran.
     
  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    jazakAllahu kyaran. that was a serious gaffe. wonder how I landed on that page, perhaps I clicked a link on google search unthinkingly. To be honest I was a tad surprised at not finding familiar names in the list and the SIO part i confused with MSO (I knew there was some students' org from keralites but didn't know its name: http://msoindia.blogspot.in/p/about-us.html)
     
  5. Adam Yahya

    Adam Yahya Active Member

    Reading of our subcontinental Darul Ulooms, I would like to share a little story that I was told a week ago.

    My respected uncle spoke to a scholar here in the UK not long ago. He told my uncle of his trip to Russia and what he was met with there.

    The scholar said that one day he walked into a clothes shop in his traditional shalwar kamees and was approached by a native Russian man who greeted him with salaam. What was more astonishing to him was that the Russian man could speak fluent Urdu. Upon further enquiry he found out that the man had studied at Darul Uloom Karachi for seven years. The man also disclosed that every year men go to Karachi in abundance from that part of the world.

    ...............


    It is no wonder that they are so popular across the entire world and host about 12000 students* at any one time; a production line churning out more and more preachers/scholars day in day out. Does anyone know of any Sunni places who are comparable in India and Pakistan, in terms of their size, popularity and numbers.


    *previously elsewhere on this forum I mentioned 40000 students. The correct number in around 12000 at the moment.
     
  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Have any of you gone through the syllabus of IEBI (link)?

    Useful links: scribd, news

    I had written about this syllabus earlier here. AlaHamdulillah, we have come a long way. The project is highly successful, and after we held the annual-day where the students (aged 7-11 years) demonstarted their skills (Mufti Mujeeb Ashraf Sahib, who was the chief-guest, lauded the efforts and distributed prizes among the students), the number of students has increased markedly and we are conducting two batches daily (Friday-off). Parents are eager to send their ward here, some of them are attending despite going to regular 'aapas' (aunties) to learn Qur'an al Kareem (not a good thing though since aapas teach without proper tajweed and students get confused). All in all we have high hopes that when this batch completes the course we'll have a team of youngsters strong in both fiqh and aqaid.

    The course is being taught by a Mangalorian A'alim, Mawlana Ashraf Sa'adi, garduate of Jamia Sa'adia, as the appellation suggests. A very capable scholar whose arrival has been very beneficial for all the sahfis of the area. Our locality now boasts no less than five shafi scholars (bi Hamdillah) and more are studying. Of these Mawlana Ashraf and Mufti Aaqib Kharbe are the more learned ones and Mufti Rafiq Sa'adi Sahib pays regular visits. These are in addition to resident Hanafi scholars of repute and other who visit often. So a good environment can be hoped for the future. InshaAllah.

    I have spoken to Mawlana Ashraf and he says he has a hard copy of the Hnafais' syllabus. If brothers are interested please let me know, I'll upload the scan (the copy has been borrowed by a hanafi scholar and shall be available soon).

    wassalaam.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2015
  7. Adam Yahya

    Adam Yahya Active Member

    It is difficult to say which Masjid is the best. In terms of Masajid i.e. the leading few Mosques, I would say that, at least in Birmingham, the Jamatia Centre (Woodlands Road) is leading the way. What is more the audio clip posted below should make us even more hopeful.

    Sultan Bahu, Birmingham, is also meant to have a good Qur'an Academy.
     
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  8. IrfaniQadri

    IrfaniQadri New Member

    Which Sunni Masjid or masjids would you say are leading the way in regards to teaching children from primary school all the way to 16?
     
  9. Adam Yahya

    Adam Yahya Active Member


    Salaam

    The course I was referring to collapsed about a year after its inauguration and the scholar has set it up elsewhere.

    So its not the one you refer to, which I think is a brilliant course and doing very well. It's one of the best if not the best part-time darse nizami courses in the country.
     
  10. ahmad786

    ahmad786 Active Member

    Shaykh Asrar Rashid speaking about Dars Nizami in Woodlands Road Masjid (Jumu'ah lecture)

     
  11. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran


    I know what you refer to brother but the course would be considered watered down because the teachers complained they cannot teach the books.. or the excuse that students cannot do too many texts.

    Also people are preoccupied with school, college, university and work.

    So therefore the course is part time.
     
  12. Golravi

    Golravi New Member

    There is no doubt that our senior scholars can take on the deobandi scholars in knowledge of the sciences and outclass them. However, one cannot say that all deobandi graduates are fools upon fools, due to a minority coming out below standard. The credit goes to them in terms of having a more emphasis on teaching and learning than we do. Sadly, we have more emphasis on mustahab amal, an emphasis on mehfils such as giyarween shareef, urs shareef and all the other shareefs, which one should hold these gatherings, but there should be more emphasis on ilm e deen as that is fard and as you all know has countless virtues and blessings. Not to mention we give more respect to naat khawan and mukarar than the mudariseen and the blessed mashaikah who are the defenders of the ahlus sunnah and are true khadims
     
  13. Adam Yahya

    Adam Yahya Active Member

    Those who are in the know will agree that the Dars e Nizami courses in the Deo Darul Ulooms are not all they are made out to be. Granted, they have more graduates than they could practically ever need; I've been told by one Sunni Scholar that the Deos don't have enough positions in schools and mosques to post their 'scholars' at any longer and graduates are going into alternative fields. Even the syllabus at Darul Uloom Deoband in Karachi, home to over 40,000 students, is just probably akin to 'satisfactory' and not as good as what it could be.

    Whatever the case though, they certainly have more people teaching and thus continuing the chain. How many of our scholars are teaching? Not many to my research I can tell you, and we have some very studied and capable ones in our midst. What will happen is that, should they neglect teaching for too long, they will forget a lot of what they learnt and, dare I say it, that I think is somewhat of a waste.

    I was fairly disappointed when I saw the syllabus made by a renowned young scholar in the Midlands, who has studied more than most others in the UK. Although he has studied much of the classical syllabus like our predecessors, his self-designed variant was dramatically watered down and and void of tried-and-tested classical primers and texts that undoubtedly made him a scholar and so many tens of thousands before him. If things go on like this, then there won't be any heavy-weight scholars to come in the future.

    Alhamdulillah, there a few individuals who have studied well though, who are teaching strong courses. These people must be promoted as much as possible if we are to stand a chance of reviving our state.

    May Allah forgive us for our shortcomings and grant us the ability to seek knowledge and then impart it with wisdom and sincerity.
     
  14. Adam Yahya

    Adam Yahya Active Member


    It will be a good start and

    There are such courses, spanning 4 year +. There just aren't many people committed to full time studying at the moment. The madrassa children of today should be the Dars Nizami/ Alim course students of tomorrow and the scholars of the distant future.
    Spot on.

    There is also a senior UK scholar working of a post 16 syllabus for our Masajid to follow. It will contain Fiqh, Aqidah and so on. I cannot disclose who and when just yet as it is not for me to do.
     
  15. kaydani1

    kaydani1 Active Member

    A point to mention. How many people are even qualified to teach Dars-i-Nizami?

    Also, Deobandi schools within the UK have been producing fools on top of fools. My own encounters with so called Shuyukh al-Hadith have left me shocked at how THEY play with titles. A brother recently mentioned to me that one Shaykh al-Hadith from the Bury Jamia (amongst the foremost Deobandi schools in the UK) did not even know which science the work Nur al-Anwar came under? Another Deobandi scholar in my area who was seen to be a great scholar mentioned that he studied Kafiya in Fiqh? Seriously, this is what it has come to. The guys are idiots, to say the least.

    One of our polished students would take on any of their Muftis.
     
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  16. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    agreed. we badly need a syllabus so that by the age of 8 they know x, by 9 they know y, by 10 they know z. so that when they step into their teens, they're ready to start Arabic and more advanced fiqh and aqidah etc.

    I think we have a great opportunity in the 5-7pm classes and need vibrant and inspirational teachers to push the kids.

    if kids can leave madrasah thinking, 'yes, I want to study more'; then our full time dars e nizami courses can be populated.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
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  17. inquisitive

    inquisitive Well-Known Member

    I think they should be prepared from a young age so that when they are 16 and stop going to the Madrasa classes (most people do) then they are equipped with enough knowledge to know basic Arabic grammar, Urdu (to a sufficient standard) along with the main and necessary rulings regarding the fard obligations.

    There is no organization in the curriculum of Sunni Madaris. We need a structured course so that people actually know Masala Masayil instead of coming out 'Nira Jahil', uttering Kufriya statements in jest, and quite often, thinking they are entitled to their own opinions in Islam.

    We need a Dars e Nizami course too which spans 4-5 years
     
  18. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    should we use the 5-7pm evening classes at the local masjid and turn it into a dars e nizami class for the eldest children?
     
  19. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    Those you are calling Sunnis in UK are into Pirs, Shayks and psuedo spirituality and not Qur'an and Hadith.

    It's a lost cause. Do not expect fish in urine.
     
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  20. Golravi

    Golravi New Member

    Alhamdulillah work is happening slowly in terms of education within the Ahlus Sunnah in the UK. However, Deobandis are taking over with their madrassas in every single major city and town within the UK. Our sunni madrassas have had their Dars E Nizami narrowed down so much having courses such as one year imam course, how can a person become an imam in one year is beyond me. Some of our institutions are failing to be competent with the deobandi madrassa, in terms of the layout and structure of the scholarship programme, in most of deobandi madrassa you'll find them to teach for a good seven to eight years, teaching a wide range of texts and the full texts, which in some of our center's is not the case, therefore when graduating do no come out well versed in the sciences. We are very quick to put titles next to our names, such as "ustad", "Allama", "Shaykh ul Hadith" etc,. We are producing more naat khawan and speakers then ever, less mudaris, intellects and academics are being produced.
     
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