Tragedy at Mina 2015

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Aqib alQadri, Oct 22, 2015.

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  1. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Saudi Arabia does not hate or dislike all shias. Saudi Arabia has political differences with Iran due to regional power struggle. It is true that one of the reason they hate Iran is for being a Shia country. But as per my study and observation ( I may be wrong) the political, military and regional power struggle between Saudi Arabia and Iran is presented to the normal sunni population as being 'shia vs sunni". If Saudi Arabia really dislikes Shias, then why do they give special facility to the filthiest shia sect ( bora and khoja ) from India during hajj? Bora shias who dress in a way so that they can be easily identified that they belong to shia sect, were given special entry to Riad al Jannah. All other people were told to vacate Riad al Jannah and Bora shia group along with their spiritual leader were given special entry to it. If people don't trust me then a top ranking Sunni Rizvi Mufti sahab from India can testify to this incidence.

    What is the official death toll in Mina tragedy as per Saudi Arabia? I have the figures from a Salafi /Wahabi who was positioned at the place where dead bodies were kept.

    Why is there two different version of the cause of the incidence? Were they Iranians or the Africans who caused it?

    Different newspapers have given different story, without trying to know the fact. [ I went to the site of incidence twice. First time, next day after the incidence and second time, after the hajj was over and Mina camp was empty]

    What is the meaning of the statement issued by top Saudi Wahabi Scholar who said:
    " authorities not responsible for deadly crush"
    " fate and destiny are inevitable"
    " the incidence was beyond human control"
     
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  2. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

  3. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Another Nigerian first hand account. He says that it was mostly the Egyptians who took the wrong way among others. Perhaps this explains the 146 and rising Egyptian toll. He says that his group pleaded with the big group of Egyptians to take a detour and go around. But the Egyptians did not listen. He says that Egyptians were taking a short cut back because they could reach their camp in much less time. But why did the saudis allow the Egyptians to come back the same way ??

    He then says other roads were blocked by the Saudis for no obvious reason.

    http://www.punchng.com/feature/interview/how-nigerians-died-in-hajj-stampede-survivor-prof-akintola/
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  4. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Sushma Swaraj, indian BJP minister, releases new death toll for india, saying the saudis have released a "new" list ??????? External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj tweeted: "Hajj stampede - Saudi Arabia has released a further list. The Indian toll is now 74." i do not think she is talking about deaths due to heat strokes or other natural causes
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  5. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Brother @Aqib alQadri , the mullahs encourage the common shia to do evil things in the Haramayn. i am a witness to countless acts as well. One of which i will tell you but please keep a strong heart ! i saw a wretched twelver iranian mullah telling followers to spit at the grave of Sayyiduna Usman raDyAllahu 'anhu and send la'nat on him whilst hiding their face and sitting down.

    They organize them to attack other pilgrims by making their worship very difficult. But other pilgrims know how to push away the iranians.

    Sunni iranians will never be found doing this and are like the Malaysians.

    However, this Hajj disaster is on the verge of becoming the worst. Pakistan is reporting 87 martyrs. India 74, Mali 70, Egypt 146, Ethiopia 31, indonesia 103, making the total [ excluding half the iranian figure ] almost 1200.

    The Mauritian Hajj Minister is saying 3000 Hujjaj have lost their lives. The Pakistani foreign minister is saying 1200 more bodies have not been identified. Naheed Kausar, a UK national was identified by her husband by head-scarf and jewelry, not the face, as she was unrecognizable. Probably her face got crushed in the stampede. She was found in a hospital morgue
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  6. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    Continued

    2. THE PILGRIMS’ SITUATION


    a. THE WALK TO JAMAARAT
    The tour operator (especially local) makes sure that he rents the hotel in Makkah for a minimum number of days. He therefore takes the Hajis to Mina tents in the evening of the 7th of Zi-alHajj. He scares them about the train and bus schedule and rushes them again to Arafat on 8th evening or late night. Again, before Maghrib he takes them to the train station or forces them inside the bus. The pilgrim stands at the train station for not less than an hour; the bus ride to Muzdalifah is anywhere between 30 minutes to 3 hours. Then the Haji spends the night in Muzdalifah under the open sky – most simply stay awake engrossed in prayer. On the morning of the 10th of Zi-alHajj, the Hajis are taken by bus to their tents & those who chose the train go straight to Jamaraat. However, the majority prefers to walk.

    The Jamaraat is approximately 5 km – 7 km away from Muzdalifah (from the closest & farthest points). Those who go by bus or train also need to walk at least 2 – 4 km. Add to it the walk back to the tent in Mina.

    Except for one walkway, all the roads inside Mina are unshaded, i.e. open to the sky. The already sapped Haji walks this distance (sometimes saddled with baggage), along with thousands of others, sweating and unable to breathe freely.

    And on the 12th of Zi-alHajj , the tour operators insist that the Haji must come back after the stoning, to the tent by 4 pm – OR THE BUS WILL LEAVE TO HARAM without them. This is because the local tour operator wants the Haji to perform the Tawaaf e Widaa immediately after Maghrib, so he can transport them to Medina (or other places in KSA), on the same night.


    b. EDUCATION
    The Shariah allows late stoning due to various reasons; however most people are unaware and they wish to accomplish this as soon as possible i.e. within the first prescribed time.

    Add to this the tour operators’ insistence that – on the 12th of Zi-alHajj – the Haji must come back to the tent by 4 pm.


    c. ROWDINESS OF CERTAIN NATIONALITIES
    Some nationalities form large groups to stick together. No problems with that, but when they hold hands to form circles or scream at the top of their voice during Tawaf & Sayee they do cause a lot of problems for others. Some groups, such as Malaysians, do not harm anyone. And on the other hand, the Irani Shias not only block others’ way, they bully around - walking with elbows bent and armpits exposed. I have witnessed them walking the other way round after completing the Tawaaf, during Hajj season, just to take a short cut. And also witnessed them screaming out political slogans whilst marching in Mina.

    Note: The largest number of casualties in 2015 stampede is that of Iranis – were they forcing their way against the tide?


    SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS.

    Ø Build shades ALL ALONG the entire roads of Mina, preferable with good height and ample ventilation. This will reduce help reduce the fatigue of the Hajis. This will also do away with the dangerous little umbrellas.

    Ø Install fans or mist sprays all along the roads of Mina. These must be operational at least during the day. Remember that most accidents (if not all) occur during day-time.

    Ø Hajj guides should explain the timing allowed for stoning.

    Ø Hajj guides should teach Hajis to be thoughtful of others.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2015
  7. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    AlHamdolillah, I have been to the Holy City several times during Ramadaan & Hajj, the most crowded days of the year. The following are some of the things my family and friends have noticed.

    I hope the suggestions for improvements reach the authorities in some way or the other:-


    1. THE POLICE & CADETS DEPLOYED
    Thousands of police and cadets are deployed in the days of Hajj and Ramadaan – which is all fine to keep the situation under control. They do exert a considerable effort, but they could mend the following:-


    a. CLOSING MANY OF THE DOORS OF THE HARAM, FORCING PEOPLE TO PUSH THEIR WAY THROUGH OTHER DOORS.
    Many visitors have seen this already: but I will cite an example to show how frustrating this is, and how much inconvenience this causes.

    My family & I were performing the Sayee, in the basement: we found it extremely suffocating because of the sheer number of people and the fact that the ceiling in the basement is very low. After the first round we decided to move to the ground floor, taking the right exit from Marwah to go upstairs. Of the 4 exits (2 stairs, 2 escalators), 3 were CLOSED, which was baffling. Everyone was being forced to take the one open staircase. When we reached the ground level, again the first door to Marwah was closed, forcing us to step out of the Haram. After that next 7 doors were also CLOSED (with 1-2 policemen blocking it with Green Plastic Barriers). None of the policemen knew why the gate was closed. The only answer was “mamnoo” (not allowed) or “guddaam” (go ahead). Finally we took a 180 degree detour to the other side, (which faces the toilets), to find that ONLY one big gate was open. You can imagine the rush and commotion with thousands of people forcing their way in or out, though this single gate at Marwah. And the blessed date? The 10th of Zi-alHajj.


    b. CLOSING THE ROUTES INSIDE MINA / WAY TO JAMARAT.
    Letting more people pass creates more crowds at the destinations. Fine. But what about the pressure build-up at the points where the crowds are being stopped?

    When you stop the march of thousands of people, you are stopping only the 100 odd people at the front – what about the thousands who are relentlessly pushing from behind and who do not even see the police or do not even know that the road is blocked?? Any school student will tell you that the dam will burst if the lake behind is rising and the water is not released.

    Furthermore, most of the Hajis are first time visitors, and when diverted to “other” routes, they simply do not have a clue of where to go.

    A first hand experience we will not forget: It was the 13th of Zi-alHajj and Mina was EMPTY. My family and I (5 persons) prayed Asr at Masjid e Kheif, and then proceeded for stoning the Jamaraat. The direct road was blocked by a barrier, with a policeman sitting behind it. We approached him to open it for us so we could cross over. Despite seeing that we were a family, with women and children, he refused our request. We walked backwards (in the opposite direction), and made a U turn after about 400 meters, going right past him near the same barrier. Remember, it was 13th Zi-alHajj with no crowd, no other pedestrian along the way. When we reached Jamaraat about 30 minutes before Maghrib, there was no one else there. We thanked Allah that we walked some additional steps in His way.


    c. SPEAKING ONLY ARABIC.

    d. CLOSING THE LIFTS AND ESCALATORS NEAR THE JAMAARAT
    These facilities are not open even for the old or disabled, or even when the rush has abated. The already tired Hajis are forced to take LONG walks back to or out of Mina.

    e. BLOWING OF SIRENS AND LOUDSPEAKERS.
    If one is anywhere near the Land Cruisers that these policemen drive around, he will wish that he was deaf. They keep on blowing sirens or saying “Harrik, harrik” (move, move) through their loudspeakers installed on top of their vehicles. And additionally, if it is night time, the vehicle’s harsh, flashing emergency lights are ALWAYS ON. Imagine all this happening when it is done near a semi-closed space such as the Jamaraat, or near the walls of Masjid e Kheif.

    The objective is to make people move away from the spot, even if they are fainting from sheer exhaustion. It creates nothing but sows PANIC. An earthquake? A fire? Or another stampede? A first time visitor thinks that something has definitely gone wrong.

    SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS.

    Ø Train the Police Supervisors in the science of Crowd Management.

    Ø Post the supervisors NEAR the sites, equipped with latest gadgets and updated with minute by minute data.

    Ø Deploy non-Arabic speakers alongside the locals.

    Ø Stop blaring sirens and loudspeakers unless there is a real emergency.

    Ø VVIPs should use the Helipads near the Jamaraat – and should come and go when the rush is minimal (early morning on 10th, late night of 11th and 12th).

    Continued...
     
  8. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    a bit too soon.......

    http://www.dawn.com/news/1211072/saudi-carelessness-in-mina-stampede-criticised-in-senate
     
  9. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I am a witness that they do, not only (temporary) doors but they also divert the direction to reduce the crowed going towards jamarat, perhaps in 2009 or 2010 i had to go almost one and half km in the opposite direction of jamarat, i.e. towards muzdalfah, because police had blocked the entrances and people were forced to take a 1.5 km u-turn to go to jamaraat. But, when there is a VVIP movement (not just VIPs because i've seen them doing rami with other people but with 40/50 guards encircling them) then they forget everything. this VVIP movement had caused stampede (i guess in ) 2003 as well and several hundred people died, i had finished my rami from the ground level while that incident happened on the bridge. the main issue is not crowd management which they have over come, i guess very well, but it is VVIP movement that causes such incidents.
     
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  10. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Indonesia has raised its number of martyrs to 100, Egypt to 138, Nigeria to 75, India to 58, Pakistan to 60, Bangladesh to 43, Cameroon to 42, and the UK to 1. Morocco has gone down from initial media reports of 87 to 19, and so has Mali from 78 to 60. But both Morocco and Mali are reporting dozens still missing.

    The numbers keep on increasing with these martyrdoms specifically related to the Mina tragedy. Lets assume that the iranian figure is an exaggeration, and the real number of their dead is half of the 465. Even then the toll is 1000 +
     
  11. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    First hand account of a Nigerian victim. He tells of the gross carelessness and attitude of the police van in front of the crowd that actually worsened the stampede. The question now is what happened to that van and to those Saudi police. Many of these poor Hujjaj spent their live savings to come to Hajj amid assurances of security and comfort. That is what they paid for.

    http://allafrica.com/stories/201509282123.html
     
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  12. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    http://www.arabnews.com/saudi-arabia/news/812941

     
  15. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    Three top Saudis fired. i would like to see the health minister and the control room Saudis fired. The police present at the site should all be fired as well. Iran is right, this is a criminal case.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...-officials-in-wake-of-hajj-stampede-1.2370156

    The above good article delineates the economics of Hajj and Umra for the Saud kingdom At current exchange rates they earn like 21 billion dollars from Makkah Mukarramah and Madeena Munawwarah. While in the past more than 25 billion dollars an year, and i believe these numbers are conservative.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  16. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    the behavior of the pakistani govt is deplorable. the Pakistani govt should be ashamed of itself for colluding with the sly saudis and ignoring the sentiments of their own people. i applaud india and iran for getting tough

    pakistan has hidden the true number of their dead and missing. this country seems to not care about its own citizens. is human life so cheap in pakistan ???
     
  17. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

  18. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    no point. and it is not related or relevant to this tragedy, other than perhaps the topic of vip's and royals doing Hajj. just some trivia that i had come across some weeks earlier. don't know why it irked you. there were no hidden messages in it for you.

    no one perhaps (not me certainly), but at the same time who expects their arch enemies, the rafidis to not stir things up and politicize the Hajj, something they have done before too? i'm not saying one side is cleanskins and they're gonna hand the whole truth over to you on a silver platter (again, we're not living in Hazrat Umar's times, radi Allahu 3anhu), but at the same time the other side too won't shy away from trying to capitalize on this "opportunity" as best as they can.

    the kind of truth that you're after probably lies somewhere in between najd and isfahan, if you know what i mean

    just so you know, i also find this comment by Wadood perfectly believable

    as for the response to your comments on road closure, see my post #21
     
  19. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

  20. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    What's the point here? How is it relevant to this tragic event?

    Or have you turned a royalist after drinking kool-aid from arabnews.com, which drips of sycophancy. Who expects mouthpieces like arabnews to tell the truth unvarnished?

    Point is not whether the royals should be begrudged their participation in hajj. Point is should the roads have been closed; whether it was done to facilitate the rami for royals, as some have alleged, or royal visit had nothing to do with road closure.

    Was there a road closure? Or was there none? Why were the two sections made to converge on one road? Do authorities have any share of blame or none at all? Did the Iranians do this deliberately (and paid the ultimate price with their lives for their foolhardiness)? Why were Africans blamed initially and then the Iranians? Is the blame on Iranians anything to do with current geo-political situation or with Iran's trenchant denunciation of authority's failure which led to disaster?
     

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