Sajdah to ghayr Allah

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by sunni_porter, Jun 26, 2018.

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  1. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    I wrote my post after seeing this online:

    Imam Ahmad Raza Al-Baraylawi [may Allah be pleased with him] said: "The prostration to other than Allah is Haraam, Haraam, Haraam! it is worse than consuming pork" [Fataawa Ridawiyya, Volume 22, Risaalah Az-Zubdah, Point 88]

    So the 'to' used here must be referring to direction since it is considered haraam and not shirk/kufr, no? But, as pointed out below, it is free from that connotation when we say "prostration to Allah ta'ala".
     
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well, I don't see in the list (or maybe I have overlooked it) the usage of 'to' as 'for'.

    For example, when someone dedicates anything, say a book, to someone, they usually write, 'To my most beloved teacher' or 'To my parents' etc.

    When we used to write letters (in the jurrasisc age when emails were still "techie" stuff), we would write: To, so-and-so

    In both the above instances we see that 'to' has an implicit connotation of 'for'. No one says: hey 'to' where? North, South, East, West?

    If a Muslim is asked, who do you people prostate to in your prayers? No one will answer, oh, we prostrate to no one in particular, but yes, we prostrate 'for' Allah, and 'towards' the ka'ba.

    I don't think it is right to say that 'to' necessarily connotes direction.

    See these nine translations of Surah Fussilat verse-37.

    All but one have translated li as 'to', even-though you will see it being translated as 'for' in the majority of the cases.

    The obvious intended meaning of the verse is do not bow down or prostrate 'in worship for' the Sun/Moon - not that do not bow in the direction of the Sun and Moon. Otherwise one would not be able to prostrate in the direction of the ka'ba in many places around the world!

    In fact, in this verse, using 'for' would change the meaning altogether.

    Here's another example. It's such a sublime verse that even in translation it fills one with awe.

    Using anything other than 'to' would destroy the meaning and the profound effect of the verse altogether.

    'We prostrate to Allah ta'ala' is an accurate, innocent, error-free and unblemished expression having no connotations of direction or place whatsoever.

    And Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    and the 'for' is here.
     
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    good question.

    because the word 'to' is used in many meanings. the above meaning as in 'towards' is one of the many many meanings:

    check this:

    (used for expressing motion or direction toward a point, person, place, or thing approached and reached, as opposed to from): They came to the house.

    (used for expressing direction or motion or direction toward something) in the direction of; toward: from north to south.


    (used for expressing limit of movement or extension): He grew to six feet.

    (used for expressing contact or contiguity) on; against; beside; upon: a right uppercut to the jaw; Apply varnish to the surface.

    (used for expressing a point of limit in time) before; until: to this day; It is ten minutes to six. We work from nine to five.

    (used for expressing aim, purpose, or intention): going to the rescue.


    (used for expressing destination or appointed end): sentenced to jail.

    (used for expressing agency, result, or consequence): to my dismay; The flowers opened to the sun.

    (used for expressing a resulting state or condition): He tore it to pieces.

    (used for expressing the object of inclination or desire): They drank to her health.


    (used for expressing the object of a right or claim): claimants to an estate.


    (used for expressing limit in degree, condition, or amount): wet to the skin; goods amounting to $1000; Tomorrow's high will be 75 to 80°.

    (used for expressing addition or accompaniment) with: He added insult to injury. They danced to the music. Where is the top to this box?

    (used for expressing attachment or adherence): She held to her opinion.

    (used for expressing comparison or opposition): inferior to last year's crop; The score is eight to seven.

    (used for expressing agreement or accordance) according to; by: a position to one's liking; to the best of my knowledge.

    (used for expressing reference, reaction, or relation): What will he say to this?

    (used for expressing a relative position): parallel to the roof.

    (used for expressing a proportion of number or quantity) in; making up: 12 to the dozen; 20 miles to the gallon.

    (used for indicating the indirect object of a verb, for connecting a verb with its complement, or for indicating or limiting the application of an adjective, noun, or pronoun): Give it to me. I refer to your work.


    (used as the ordinary sign or accompaniment of the infinitive, as in expressing motion, direction, or purpose, in ordinary uses with a substantive object.)


    adverb

    toward a point, person, place, or thing, implied or understood.


    toward a contact point or closed position: Pull the door to.


    toward a matter, action, or work: We turned to with a will.

    into a state of consciousness; out of unconsciousness: after he came to.
     
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  5. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Should we say our prostration is to Allah ta'ala or for Allah ta'ala?

    As Allah ta'ala is not an object and is free from directions, so how can we say we are making sajdah to Him?

    If we say - we are making du`aa to Allah ta'ala - then I get that, as du`aa is not physical.
     
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  6. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    it is very clear, we do not worship ka'bah, we only prostrate towards it to worship our Lord subhanu wa ta'ala. Our hearts prostrate to the beloved Prophet alihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem because we respect him more than ka'bah, and respecting the beloved alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem is also worship of Allah subh'anu wa ta'ala. Sayyiduna Ali raDiAllahu an'h didn't disturb Rasulullah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem in his sleep and he missed his 'asr prayer, but he only missed his physical prostration towards ka'bah otherwise at heart he was doing the best of the worships of his Lord subh'anu wa'tala. This was the sajjdah of his heart that made sun come back for him.

    this sajjdah is for ta'zim, only a sick heart will interpret it otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
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  7. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    It's the negative insinuation that bothered me. But how's it different to azhari miyan's sheyr:

    Sajda e Sar hay Soo e Ka'bah
    Sajda e Dil hay Soo e Muhammad (sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam)
     
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    no doubt the language/translation is poor, it certainly has a negative insinuation. ala hazrat's radiAllahu a'nh kalam is free from this contradiction.
     
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  9. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    sang e dar e Huzoor se hum ko Khuda na sabr dey,
    jaana hai sar ko ja chuke, dil ko qaraar aaye kyuN?

    aye shawq e dil, gar un ko yeh sajdah rawaa nahiN,
    achha, woh sajdah keejey ke sar ko khabar na ho!
     
  10. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    The head prostrates to Allah
    While the heart prostrates to Mustafa

    sigh ! The language/translation (?) is poor and so are the meanings so imho one should not say such things as they could mislead others.

    imho, the problem with the above two sentences are that they are together, and can mislead, individually they can be fine.

    but whats the harm if one wishes to prostrate , like the sahaba wished ? nothing inherently wrong with the thought itself, if it is out of adab, as was the norm of respect earlier ( as in surah yusuf ) except that now its against the hukm sharayi as we know from the hadith.

    if your head prostates to Allah , and you know al-muStafa, you will also know that He is rabb.e.muStafa sall allahu alayhi wa sallam
    that one connection by itself is sufficient to make the sajdah beautiful for the Ashiq of al muStafa sall allahu alayhi wa sallam.

    such connections are not needed as the muStafawi connection is never lost on the ashiq, his heart beats for the beloved of Allah, he loves al muStafa sall allahu alayhi wa sallam for Allah taala has given him comfort and sweetness in it and then he loves Allah azza wa jall for the sake of al muStafa sall allahu alayhi wa sallam, in awe of Him, trying to emulate the Chosen One's love for Allah azza wa jall.
     
  11. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    poetic play of words must be interpreted with correct aqidah and fiqh in mind, hence such ashaar though effective, understanding them must be dealt with carefully.

    Ush'shaq rawzah sajdah meiN su e haram jhuke
    Allah jaanta hai ke niyyat kidhar ki hai

    its beautiful , and can be interpreted in several ways

    but primarily it shows the longing/betaabi of the usshaq of the rawzah to be at the beloved's rawDah saharif

    - to finish the obligation of prayer, and go back there, if in madina munawwara
    - to finish one's umrah and set towards al madina munawwara

    in essence for someone afar

    - to be good with the Lord so that He blesses them with His beloved's company

    wallahu alam
     
  12. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    why do you feel that it implies NOT to Allah?? without the heart, even the sajdah with one's head to Allah, is meaningless!
     
  13. ghulam-e-raza

    ghulam-e-raza Well-Known Member

    Sajda e Sar hay Soo e Ka'bah
    Sajda e Dil hay Soo e Muhammad (sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam)

    Huzur Taajush Shari'ah Allamah Mufti Akhtar Rida

    And a Q&A along the lines of this topic -
    http://jamiaturraza.com/session/21Nov10/14.mp3
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2015
  14. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Yes. I'm unsure. That's why the query.

    The example I've cited above talks about Allah and RasulAllah and could imply that we make physical sajdah to Allah but our hearts prostrate not to Allah but RasulAllah. That's why I'm not comfortable. Jalla jalaluhu wa sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    Alahazrat does have a sheyr though:

    Ush'shaq rawzah sajdah meiN su e haram jhuke
    Allah jaanta hai ke niyyat kidhar ki hai
     
  15. YaMustafa

    YaMustafa Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Nov 30, 2015
  16. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Someone said it and I didn't feel comfortable.
     
  17. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    why not say both the body and soul worship Allah and honor the Prophet 3alaihis salam as His most chosen and esteemed creation.

    did someone say that or it's just a what-if kind of query?

    personally, i would not say that and put people's minds in a conundrum (even if a mufti might rule permissible upon being queried). even if some big name like Ala Hazrat (or someone of his stature) has said something like this, i wouldn't say it to some random guy and leave it at that unless i'm in a position (my own knowledge, capacity, time, willingness of the other guy to listen) to properly explain the meaning of those words.
     
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  18. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    The head prostrates to Allah
    While the heart prostrates to Mustafa

    How is it to say this?
     

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