does atabek deny "Divine Anger" or 'ghaDab'?

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by abu Hasan, May 7, 2016.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    brother mohamed shaksi has summarised it well.

    but this needs to be discussed in a separate thread, as promised. in sha'Allah wa billahi't tawfiq.
    and as courtesy to brother mohamed shaksi - i will try not to scold atabek.

    : )
     
  2. Mohamed shaksi

    Mohamed shaksi New Member

    Update:

    The Salaf take it as a Sifah of Allah on which the Kitab Sunnah and Ijma of Ummah Salaf rests. They prove it by the Ayat and Ahadith which mention it. But they take it as one without a resemblance or Tashbeeh.

    The Khalaf: what He will do upon the ones who trangressed, namely punishing the Kuffar and the humiliation that awaits them.

    Just like Rida of Allah which is the Zuhur of His Grace and Rahmah.

    Change is Mustaheel for Allah, it is from the Mutashabihaat.
     
  3. Mohamed shaksi

    Mohamed shaksi New Member

    What is meant by it is, what He will do upon the ones who trangressed, namely punishing the Kuffar and the humiliation that awaits them.

    Just like Rida of Allah which is the Zuhur of His Grace and Rahmah.

    Change is Mustaheel for Allah, it is from the Mutashabihaat.
     
  4. Juwayni

    Juwayni Veteran

    As Salamu ʾAlaykum Wa RaHmatullahi Wa Barakatu,

    I was wondering, would we say that Allah's (ﷻ) Anger is an Attribute?
     
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    my objective is to call atabek, a donkey until he is known by that name - as long as he lives and long after he is dead. the mutazili zindiq will be known as 'atabek the donkey' for posterity, Allah willing.

    besides, it is also a test to tell the hypocrite apart. those who get offended with my calling atabek 'a donkey' seem to be unruffled when he calls saHiH hadith "silly lies" and "idiotic insults to God" apart from other insults the donkey has dished at sunni ulama.

    there are men and there are donkeys. men will be curious to investigate why atabek is being called a donkey. donkeys will be offended that a mirror is held to their ugly faces - and wonder why they are calling him a donkey. sunnis who don't agree with atabek's idiotic rants, but don't like to call him a donkey are perfectly fine with us - we respect their choice of handling things differently.

    it may sound insulting to them when we say that the 'emperor has no clothes' ; but not saying that won't alter the fact that he is stark naked. a donkey on a talk show is a donkey; a donkey on facebook remains a donkey.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
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  6. Mohamed shaksi

    Mohamed shaksi New Member

    Do it with Hikmah. scolding etc keeps people away. I tried sharing but this is what happens.
     
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    whose? yours?

    assuming they are talking of our forum:
    whoever said that, is a depraved faithless individual. he is saying that simply due to the vaccum in his heart.
    isn't it ironic that he/she doesn't have the shame to condemn atabek the donkey for his filthy words calling hadith and (which implies verses of the of qur'an) as "silly lies" "idiotic insults to God"?

    not atabek, a hundred of his silly and mindless zombie followers cannot answer for his idiotic rants that i have refuted. in sha'Allah. and we are still not done with that stupid donkey - whose ignorance of aqidah, fiqh and hadith is bigger than his foul mouth.


    [​IMG]

    ---
    but why are you posting that here? even you don't seem to be sufficiently outraged - maybe if someone called your father or mother names or [or who knows - maybe your ghayrat won't tolerate getting angry at that either] maybe, maybe, you may get miffed.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
  8. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    As if we care for any reaction from jahils who do not have the faintest clue about the core essentials of the religion. The purpose of a true muslim will be to please Allah and his Rasool and not fear any fault finding or accusations from the ignorants. So therefore we do not care about their reaction or what they think, rather our focus is on what Allah and his Rasool like best.

    When Ala Hazrat lifted the pen against similar murtadds he did not fear the barrage of attacks that came his way from that group. In fact he stated that it were better that he be at the receiving end than these slanderers open their dirty tongues against the best of creation.

    Atabek is bound on destroying the deen and taking his followers down with him. Throughout history we have had staunch followers of the Ahle Sunnat lift the pen against such murtadds and as always it has left a big scar on such people and their admirers!
     
  9. Mohamed shaksi

    Mohamed shaksi New Member

    The first reaction after seeing all those insults.

    "I just clicked on the link. Are the people on the forum mentally stable?"
     
  10. Mohamed shaksi

    Mohamed shaksi New Member

    I don't like Atabek nor his clan for saying such horror. It however gives me no right to claim something is Mutawatir without proof. If you can show me at least reference of Muhaddithin Ulama who stated it is Mutawatir Ma'ana or Lafziy, I will surely look into that. However I did not come a cross such. With it I mean the exact content of Anger of such which will never be before or after.

    After my own istigradj I noticed that the Hadith of bukhari and Muslim and Musnad originated from one the same (or two) Sahabi. Based on this I can't say it is Mutawatir so am totally at the mercy of past scholars, but my Naqis Tahqeeq did not come across such statement.

    Not liking atabek does not give me the right to leave the principle of Usul.

    Please if you did find such info share with me. Djazak-Allah.
     
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in sha'Allah, we will deal will this in another thread, but at the outset, nawaz sahib's point is valid.
     
  12. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    you don't know the context (not surprising), but come to a conclusion that the words of the Hadeeth (corroborated by the Nusus of the Qur'an) are against the aqeedah of ahle Sunnah! can you explain how it "changes" Allah's attributes?

    for example: Allah ta'ala is alRazzaq: He gives more to some; He gives less to some: and increases or decreases it for the same person over time. How does that change His trait of being alRazzaq??
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
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  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i don't know what level of hadith scholarship you possess, but the hadith is mutawatir.

    if you weren't so eager to preach before reading, you would not have lost your focus yourself, you would probably read all the verses i quoted which effectively mean what is in that phrase of the hadith. here is another verse:

    surah anbiya'a, v103.

    [​IMG]


    ---
    there are many more verses and hadith that talk of "immense terror on that day"

    that is why i call him a donkey - so they snap out of their hallucination.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
     
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  14. izz al-Din

    izz al-Din Well-Known Member

    It is Bukhari Sharif.
    Not "bugari" al'iyadhubillah
     
  15. Mohamed shaksi

    Mohamed shaksi New Member

    Can you show me by Isnad why the Hadith part of "so angry as never before" is Mutawatir ma'na or lafziy?

    I extracted the Isnad from the few Ahadith in Bugari and Muslim and Musnad Ahmad, but I cannot see how it is Mutawatir.

    After that I will pm you how he can slip away from Kufr. Atabek and his followers are reading as well so he might use it if posted on this page.
     
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    alright. here goes. [and out of courtesy to you, i will leave the scolding part]

    this much is about one statement - the 'ghaDab' of Allah ta'ala. there are other mutazili/qadar-denying statements in that blaspheming post of mr.atabek shukurov,* which i will deal separately. wa billahi't tawfiq.

    1. atabek said:​
    2. in this statement - one or more (or all) of the following are true:

    2a. atabek denies that God will be angry.

    2b. atabek considers 'anger of God' as an insult to God.

    2c. atabek considers 'anger of God' as a "silly lies".

    2d. atabek considers the hadith that "In (sic) the day of Judgement God will be so angry as he never was before!"

    2e. atabek considers it as "fabrication", "insult to God", "silly lies".​
    3. now as we have shown in this thread (by citing numerous verses of the qur'an) to mention the "ghaDab" of Allah ta'ala is proven by nuSuS of the qur'an. anyone who denies this is a kafir, undoubtedly. i will concede that atabek may not have denied it - hence the question in the title of this thread.

    now let us call the portion of hadith that atabek calls "silly lies" as "the portion" henceforth.

    4. the hadith that mentions this portion is a mutawatir hadith - even if one contends its being mutawatir, at the least, it is muttafaq alayh hadith, as has been proven.

    5. atabek is calling a SaHiH hadith - muttafaq alayh - to be "silly lies" "fabrication" and "idiotic insult to God".

    6. the hadith in question is a marfu'u hadith. thus atabek is by implication terming the words of the Master, sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam as: "silly lies", "fabrication" and "idiotic insult to God." i do not want to explain that further, as anyone with average intelligence can understand what it means. [na'udhu billah wa nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah]​
    one should ask is what is so shocking and unbelievable in this portion, that is unpalatable to atabek? does this contradict any established aqidah or causes any other problem which leaves you with no choice except to reject it in such a derogatory manner?

    7. anyway, this portion of hadith is consistent and explanatory of the rest - only a person who is ignorant of aqidah, hadith and tafsir will rile against it in such a manner. in which case, atabek has emphatically proved that he is jahil of all sciences.​

    ونور الله لا يهدى لعاصي

    8. furthermore, this portion of hadith is the tafsir of many verses of the qur'an. the implication therefore is that atabek mocks at the qur'anic verses - and calls this idea (proven by qur'anic verses) as "silly lies" "idiotic insults to God."
    then atabek tried to justify his insult and made more blunders - we covered in another thread.

    9. finally, the point which you seem to have missed by a mile is the consequence of atabek's blasphemous statement, which he called "silly lies" "fabrications" "idiotic insult to God."

    9a. SaHiH hadith, where the statement is attributed as the saying of RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam. [marfu'u hadith]

    9b. the statement is mutawatir bi'l ma'ana as that idea is expressed in other words, in the verses of the qur'an.

    9c. the hadith is itself mutawatir - being the hadith of shafa'ah. [see the other thread where i will post about its being mutawatir]


    ----
    doesn't matter, if he is a spy - but he is serving their agenda nevertheless.

    what? if you mean what atabek said, i am surprised that you even expect this kind of talk from sunni scholars.

    denying a riwayat by critiquing its sanad , or arguing against the implication of a hadith/verse IS NOT THE SAME as calling a saHih, muttafaq alayh hadith as: "silly lies" "fabrications" and "idiotic insult to God."

    anyone who is not outraged by this patent insults and blasphemous remarks, needs to examine his own faith and reflect upon his own knowledge.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.


    ----
    *of avicenna academy.



    ----
    *also, known as atabek the donkey. [if you are copying it elsewhere, feel free to omit this part - for those who may be offended with my scolding. ]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2016
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  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    so what is your problem? don't tell me you want us to investigate what is inside atabek's donkey-heart.
     
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    guilty as charged. certainly, i am disgusted, revolted and i make no attempt to conceal that. unfortunately, words are too limited to express that anger and revulsion. people come in late to preach to us, without looking at the context. all the excuses are valid only for heretics and enemies of deen.

    وإلى الله المشتكى

    maybe it is just my imagination - but at least my repeatedly calling him a donkey and a scoundrel might have made some people sit up and notice. in an age of indifference and apathy, when people sit up an notice only when there something is shocking, why should we leave that only for heretics? as i said, i could be nice and polite and fret over how people would think about my speech, but in this age even blunt and in-your-face criticism won't budge people. iqbal understood this better than you did:

    phool ki patti se kaT sakta hai heere ka jigar
    mard e naadan par kalam e narm o nazuk be asar

    [a diamond can be split by the petal of a flower
    nice speech has no effect on an ignorant boor]

    did that blur my focus? that may be your opinion - i tend to think i am clear about my point. if there is anything that i have said, sounds confusing or confuses you, feel free to point out. what you have listed is what i have tried to explain. maybe this time, i didn't do a listing, which you have.

    but you won't call the person who insults qur'anic nusus as kafir. sub'HanAllah! where is your ghayrah for deen?

    ----
    besides, i have still not completed my refutation of atabek the donkey - as i have indicated in my previous post.

    sub'HanAllah. denies tawatur and makes fun of "sareeh quranic nusus" and is just a bid'ati.

    it is clearly kufr. denying it could be deemed ignorance. but atabek the donkey clearly insults by calling "silly lies". i don't know your madh'hab, but that is clear kufr. that is why i call atabek a murtad. i don't know if you will be like those people who will have all the ta'wil and bleeding hearts for filthy heretics spewing insults - but will be quick to warn sunni muslims who are angry for the sake of Allah that they might have become kafir themselves! the irony!

    that is the first point i made - as you can see, the title of the post.

    wAllahu a'alam.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
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  19. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    About the above quoted statement- I don't know the context- but when you say at Time 1, the state of God was X and then at Time 2 it became Y renders this type of conception of God extremely problematic to say the least. God is eternal and any change in His attributes affects his Eternity hence renders Him temporal.
     
  20. Mohamed shaksi

    Mohamed shaksi New Member

    Abu Hasan, you are reaction is too much with emotion that it blurs your focus. It effects your writing and makes it unclear for the readers.

    The two bid'atis you address to as:
    Atabek (donkey)
    Sulaiman (little donkey)


    No doubt what they have insulted is Kufr.

    1. The notion of an "angry" God is found in many Ahadith which reaches tawatur.
    2. Rather sareeh Quranic Nusus are found
    3. The notion of Anger on Qiyamah in such an extent that wont happen after or before again, not sure if it reaches Tawatur.
    However the Ridjal are all thiqah whether the versions of Bugari are taken or Muslim. Furthermore many other mustadrak mention exactly the same, which strengthen the Hadith. But nevertheless not sure if it reaches tawatur.
    4. The sifat of Anger is manqul by the Aslaf and there is an Idjma on. To deem it silly, insult, and other insults (as bukhari worship) as atabek and his student (sulaiman) do is another Kufr. Rather sareeh explanation are found regarding this sifat by nawawi.
    5. The Asha'irah creed is perfectly in line of this Hadith, rather you will find it in baab as shafa'ah. To deem the content silly, wheter yone accepts the Hadith or not, the contents meaning is found in our Aqaaid books, on which there has been unanimity. To deem this silly, insulting is to deem God Almighty silly. Allah can do Zuhur of his Sifah as He likes. Do deem this silly is Kufr, whether He does it or not. Rather the Zuhur of this has been mentioned in Tawatur and in the noble Quran.
    6. Ahadith of Rahmah and Anger do not contradict, how can Quran contradict, or Mutawatir Ahadith contradict in case of His Sifaat? This shows their other kufriy Aqeedah.
    7. To deem their Mazhab as kufriy is a must.
    With consensus they are bid'ati.

    After showing him the clear signs, await his retraction, if he retracts good for him, if not he is a Kafir. Together with his student. However don't expect him to retract by calling him names etc. Your way of talking has not as goal to do Islah. But rather forces him in taking a position which will further damage the Aqaaid of his blind followers.

    If you could reorganize your findings and perhaps leave the scolding parts it will save the iman of his followers at least.

    P.s. I truly doubt if he is a spy from the Kuffar, never before did any scholar of Ahlus Sunnah said such a thing.
     

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