Jinnah from the Awliya?

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by abu Hasan, Jan 7, 2018.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    please understand that my posts (though brothers have questioned their utility) are to remind us of our mistakes.

    in my opinion, the mistakes made by muslim countries (not just pakistan) in the previous century were that of nationalism as a political/geographic concept - and we are paying for it all around.

    dr. iqbal was accurate in his criticism of this concept - and he conveyed it superbly.

    ===
    we must learn from history, lest we repeat those mistakes. the key takeaways are:

    1. we cannot make decisions for one demographic among muslims at the expense of another.

    2. we should look at strategic wins, not just tactical and short-term victories.

    3. we must emphasise on islam as the binding force - not ethnicity, language or geographical descriptors. "islam tera des hai tu mustafawi hai"!
    islam is your country and your nationality is mustafawi!

    4. we should actively work to stem this feeling of nationalism among muslims. while members on this forum are full of bonhomie regardless of origins, muslims are becoming inert to this concept of universal brotherhood and are identifying themselves from where they belong to. islam and muslims first is our motto and we should strive to inculcate this zeal in the newer generations. [as brother aqib has mentioned in his post below].

    RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "muslims in their love and mercy to one another are like a body; whenever a part complains of pain, the entire body feels [the discomfort] and becomes feverish and loses sleep." [non-literal translation]

    jsd.png

    just to make it clear - yes, i strongly feel that the creation of pakistan was a strategic mistake. but after it became a country, it is a sovereign muslim country. we wish the best for pakistan as a muslim country and love pakistani muslims as our brothers.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
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  2. naqshbandi

    naqshbandi New Member

    Just to be clear I completely agree with what brother Aqib al Qadri has said and I love my Indian Muslim brothers. An Indian Muslim over a Pakistani non-Muslim imo any day!! At the same time, Pakistan Zindabad. Sadly Indian Muslims are stuck in an unenviable situation -- but as for Sidi Abu Hasan's question if Pakistan would accept all Indian Muslims -- I hope so inshallah. The example of the Ansar and Mohajir of Medina is in front of us of Islamic brotherhood.

    --
    Sadly, I do think that as things between Pakistan and India deteriorate Indian's Muslims will be an easy scapegoat for the RSS and the like.
    I mostly still agree with it but can Allah not turn a man's heart in the last few years of his life? So that a one time Uncle Tom leaves the world a wali (according to Sayyid Jama'at Ali Shah sahib, and some Deobandis like Shabbir Uthmani who read the Quaid's janazah). Anyway this is my last post on the matter. Whether one believes he was a wali or not is a matter of personal belief. Allah and His Messenger know best who is a wali and who isn't! Whether one is Indian or Pakistani shouldn't effect that decision but sadly on Iqbal and Jinnah's case it does.
     
  3. naqshbandi

    naqshbandi New Member

    Just to be clear I completely agree with what brother Aqib al Qadri has said and I love my Indian Muslim brothers. An Indian Muslim over a Pakistani non-Muslim imo any day!! At the same time, Pakistan Zindabad. Sadly Indian Muslims are stuck in an unenviable situation -- but as for Sidi Abu Hasan's question if Pakistan would accept all Indian Muslims -- I hope so inshallah. The example of the Ansar and Mohajir of Medina is in front of us of Islamic brotherhood.

    --
    Sadly, I do think that as things between Pakistan and India deteriorate Indian's Muslims will be an easy scapegoat for the RSS and the like.
     
  4. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    almost every person loves his land of birth, and the country he has permanently migrated to.

    what binds Muslims is far greater than the love of their countries, culture, caste, creed or color; the common love they have for Allah & His Messenger holds the foremost place - there is no greater brotherhood than this; this is what will give immense benefit to Muslims on a day when worldly friends - nay even blood relations will not benefit each other - but sincere love for the sake of Allah will.

    -----------------------

    Pakistanis consider Jinnah & Iqbal to be "heroes" - fine; let us not forget that it is the Shariah that defines "a wali' (friend of Allah). so every "wali" is our hero, but every 'hero' is not necessarily a "wali".

    ----------------------

    so let us not get carried away; let not the partition, divide us further into yet smaller parts.

    I agree. this thread should be closed for further comments, before someone starts taking things personal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  5. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I wonder what nJ will now make of his own old post on Jinnah here.

    nJ:
    I had completely forgotten about that old thread; thanks aH for digging it up.
     
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in a slightly lengthy fatwa, alahazrat says which means (not verbatim): 'why do they want to migrate? is it only because the british have become our rulers? then why didn't their forefathers migrate? what about the millions of properties of muslims etc that remain?"

    fatawa ridawiyyah, vol.21 p.290-294:

    FR v21p290.png

    FR v21p291.png

    FR v21p292.png
    FR v21p293.png

    FR v21p294.png
     
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  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in another fatwa, fatawa ridawiyyah, vol.14, p536, he says why the kuffar/mushrikin want you to leave india.

    every word of this fatwa came true, because some muslims thought that abandoning an established home for a smaller place, was a good idea.

    he said:"...they (kuffar) incited them to migrate (hijrat) so that somehow muslims go away from here and this country remains for playing our own kabbadi (idiom: we can run on our whims). so they would abandon their estates and properties - or sell them for throwaway prices; and then their masjids, shrines and graves will remain for us to plunder..."

    ---
    and the muslims who remained in india prevented that. REMEMBER THAT.

    ----
    FR-v14,p536.png
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in another fatwa, fatawa ridawiyyah, vol.21 p.281-282:

    FR-v21p281.png

    FR-v21p282.png
     
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  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    fatawa ridawiyah vol.14, p131:

    FR-v14, p131.png

    FR-v14, p132a.png
     
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  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    but who is responsible for this? whose fault is this? one big section of muslims thought that these muslims were not worth bothering about and they just said: 'take care of yourselves, good bye.' very kind of them.

    of course you will - because it doesn't hurt you. if i were born in punjab or north-western provinces, i would probably say that too. but i thank Allah ta'ala that being born where i was, i can clearly see that narrow-thinking and regionalism is the bane of islam. for me, i wish well for pakistan - because of muslims, even though we (indian muslims) suffer (partly) because of their selfish act of cutting us out to break free. and the way mohajirs have been treated in pakistan, tells you a lot about this 'muslim haven'. but that is for another day.

    do not forget that it is because of indian muslims that millions of masjids and muslim graveyards and mazaars of awliya stand in india. you got a nation and we are rebuked for your sake; and we are paying the price for your nation everyday. we are deprived, and disenfranchised and chided that we should go to pakistan. you must be glad that you got a prize - and know, that we are denied a slice of the pie for that very reason. anyway, india was very kind for us until the resurgence of hindutva. it was only after advani's rath-yatra (may Allah ta'ala humiliate that scoundrel furthermore) that we became the 'others'. the 'pakistanis who did not go away'.

    will pakistan take us? we are just around 170-180 million, in case you want to know - or really care.* if you do not have a home for us, then why do you celebrate? just because you were lucky to get away with your own piece of land? so say it like that - it was a political decision, not the interest of ALL muslims. if it were, what was the crime of muslims from the rest of the country who could never make it?

    in 1951, the number of muslims in india was 54 million; pakistan was 75 million. (west:33.4m + east:45m)

    today's populations:
    muslims in india: 172 million (indian census; cia factbook: 182million)
    muslims in pakistan: 196 million (cia factbook)
    muslims in bangladesh: 148 million

    one could ask for proof whether the shaykh said so - and even if he did, would a personal opinion suffice for a man whose general comportment was far removed from being a pious and observant muslim. i do not deny the possibility that Allah ta'ala can grant wilayah to a man for a single deed, or in the last hours of his life - but that cannot be used to justify the previous life of that person or deem saintly every word or deed of his past. anyway, let it go.

    yes, but they do not claim super-special status as a 'second madinah' like uber-nationalist pakistanis do.

    while muslims spread all over the world - taking the message of islam to foreign lands and establish islam; the creation of pakistan wanted to uproot muslims from where they lived for centuries and abandon that land. and now, THIS pakistan dreams of waging the 'ghazwah e hind' and winning the land they abandoned...

    i simply cannot get this around my head. sorry.

    ----
    the creation of pakistan was a geo-political event. if you want to wash it in ultra islamic colours and the 'dreams and visions' that RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam himself suggested/created pakistan, (wAllahu a'alam) would mean that those who stayed back in india were unwanted (al-iyadhu billah). in other words, you are saying: 'RasulALlah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam did not want (or care for) muslims who languished in india'. [al-iyadhu billah].

    if it is not this, then explain to me, what is it about. what was the plan for indian muslims? did it mean: "fend for yourselves and you are not the 'chosen' people?" sub'HanAllah.

    did any of the afore mentioned respected ulama migrate to pakistan or not? if not, why not?

    i heard from my elders that when some rash young men wanted huzur mufti azam e hind to go to pakistan with them, the great shaykh apparently said: "faqeer bareilly chhor kar nahin jayega". please don't ask for proof - i heard it from a shaykh. you are free to label it as hearsay and ignore it. but the undeniable truth is that huzur mufti azam hind raHimahullah stayed back in india.


    ==============
    sources:
    http://www.epw.in/system/files/pdf/1961_13/15/migration_from_east_pakistan_19511961.pdf
    https://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/ReapingtheDividendFINAL.pdf

    http://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/files//tables/POPULATION BY RELIGION.pdf

    http://www.censusindia.gov.in/2011census/C-01.html
    http://www.censusindia.gov.in/2011census/C-01/DDW00C-01 MDDS.XLS

    http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bg.html

    https://theprint.in/2018/01/05/a-tale-of-indian-and-american-prisoners/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2018
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  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I think after these comments it's clear that there's no point in continuing this discussion any further.

    wa's salaam
     
  13. naqshbandi

    naqshbandi New Member

    Every single passing day makes me glad for the creation of Pakistan. India is rapidly leaving its secularism behind to become a Hindutva nation where Muslims and other non Hindus will be treated even worse than now. Yes, Pakistan isn’t perfect but it’s getting better inshallah and gradually becoming closer to the Nizam e Mustafa (long way to go but the public are increasingly for it despite the politicians; with the decision of Sunni ulema to enter politics this will only increase with the success of Tahreek e Labbayk of Allama Khadim Rizvi. They won’t win in 2018 but they will possibly be kingmakers and control the agenda by splitting the Muslim League and PPP vote.

    As for Quaid e Azam’s Wilayah it is a principle that “wali raa wali daanad” (only a wali knows a wali) and the sainthood of Pir Sayyid Jamaal Ali Shah (q) is not disputed by anyone so unless you are accusing Pir Sahib of playing politics or, naudhibillah, lying about Jinnah isn’t it better to give him the benefit of doubt? For sure Jinnah didn’t look externally like a wali but that is neither here nor there. I trust the words of Amir e Millat. Ditto for Allama Iqbal. Again these are not matters that take one out of Sunniyat whichever belief one has.
    I love my Indian Muslim brethren and inshallah in the not too distant future Pakistan will become a safe haven for all Muslims especially Indian Muslims. As the world’s only Muslim nuclear power we are a guarantor of the safety of Indian Muslims inshallah too. Just let the right government come into power.

    “Welcome to Radio Delhi, Pakistan!” *
    * when Imam Mahdi comes with the army of Ghazwah e Hind.
     
  14. Abu Darda

    Abu Darda New Member

    " aH's main beef is against anointing Jinnah & Iqbal as awliyas. I too concur with him."

    I concur with Sayyid Jamaat Ali Shah sb rahmatullah alaihi (who was appointed the chair of the AISC by none other than the son of Ala Hazrat rahimullah, Hamid Raza Khan rahimullah after he himself had been voted in) who said regarding Muhammad Ali Jinnah: "For certain, Jinnah Sahib enjoys a special position in the realm of sainthood!”
     
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  15. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    You are confused, and haven't made any attempt to understand aH's comments. aH's main beef is against anointing Jinnah & Iqbal as awliyas. I too concur with him.

    aH's view is, for justifiable reasons, India centric and he closely identifies and relates with the sorry plight of Indian Muslims (who have been reduced to being emasculated 3rd class citizens, with worst still to come). When one looks on the other side of the fence, one can't see Pakistani Muslims much better off. So what did the partition achieve?

    Would a 35-40% Muslim population in united India (Akhand Bharat!) have been any better off? May be, may be not. There would have a natural and inevitable ghettoisation or clustering of Muslims to safer areas/regions and resulting in several "mini-Pakistans" (as hindus refer to Muslim pockets in India) within a larger India. Deadly communal riots would still have been a common occurrence. Yes, economically and politically, Muslims would have been much better off.

    Yes, creation of Pakistan has created a secure enclave for Muslims (secure from non-Muslims, not necessarily secure from wahabi extremists), allowed Urdu to survive etc. But has it created a strong, independent nation? Masses have been badly let down by corrupt political class, and the country is in economic and political shambles. If you can't see and feel the obvious pain, you are just a jingoist Pakistani. aH only wishes that Pakistan were better than what it is now.

    -----

    Jinnah, along with few other leaders, can rightfully claim to have created Pakistan. So he does deserve the mantle of the father of nation (baba-e-qoum). Iqbal, a literary genius and prominent intellectual, can rightfully claim to be Pakistan's foremost poet laureate (even more deserving of Nobel prize than Tagore). But what have these worldly achievements got to do with wilayah?

    Ulemas' support for Jinnah's endeavour to create Pakistan, doesn't mean that they bestowed khirqah on him. Jinnah's personal life bore no resemblance to the comportment expected of a wali. A national icon yes, but wali?


    P.S.:
    It's not to say that sufis haven't participated in freedom struggle. Omar Mukhtar, the desert lion who valiantly fought for Libya's independence, was a sufi of Sanussi order.
     
  16. Abu Darda

    Abu Darda New Member

    Abu Hasan, your comment:

    frankly, those who extol the making of pakistan are local ulama - predominantly punjabi ulama - because they didn't have to face any consequences. but it is also a reality that today's pakistan is not an ideal islamic state - so how would you answer the objection that if RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam himself supported the creation of this state (vide dreams, visions etc.), then why the many failures?

    The simple answer... The entire Muslim world is in chaos, not just Pakistan. Show me one Muslim country which does not have a string of failures to its name. Madina sharif, the most holy of lands is under occupation by Khawarij. Syria, for which Rasulullah salallahu alaihi wasallam made special dua, has been ravaged by the Alawis. Yemen, another land for which Rasulullah salallahu alaihi wasallam made special dua, has been smashed to smithereens.

    The other point to mention is the students of Ala Hazrat alaihirrahmah and Breilly sharif supported the creation of Pakistan. Go and research the All India Sunni Conference.

    Amongst the ulama who supported the creation of Pakistan including Jamaat Ali Shah, Naeem-ud-Deen Muradabadi, Mustafa Raza Khan Qadri, Amjad Ali Azmi, Abdul Hamid Qadri Badayuni and Mohammad Abdul Ghafoor Hazarvi.

    Quaid had full support of Pir Jamaat Ali Shah sb.

    Please read history before making statements.
     
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  17. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    we do not know what the future holds, and can only hope for the best; only time will tell.

    We pray that Pakistan becomes a model, strong Sunni Islamic state, able to serve the Ummah.



    some very highly respected Sunni Ulema (names shall not be disclosed) had said the same thing; “if everyone leaves, who will take care of all these sacred places?”.

    alHamdolillah, the Muslim population in India is much more now, than it was BEFORE partition; may Allah ta’ala strengthen their hands!

    Yes, the British were not so naïve to grant independence to India, without breaking it up; they made sure of dividing it, and left the 'rajas' to decide which 'country' they wanted to join, thereby ensuring a continuous hatred filled history.

    If otherwise, an undivided India would become an economic (and military) superpower long time ago.

    ==========================================
    the British also knew that to weaken the Muslims, and cause bloodshed, they have to divide this huge country.

    Imagine the might of Muslims in India, if it was still undivided.

    COUNTRY POPULATION (mln) = MUSLIMS
    INDIA 1282 = 182 (official) / 250 (actual)
    PAKISTAN 205 = 199
    BANGLADESH 158 = 142
    TOTAL UNITED 1645 = 523 / 591

    The population of Indian Muslims would be anything between 32% to 36% of the total; Muslims would be the king-makers in that “democratic’ set-up. And look at the HUGE numbers! In excess of 500 million, it would be more than even the 3rd most populous country in the world. (1st would be India - 1645, 2nd China 1350, and 3rd USA at 326 million)
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
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  18. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    this is one of my favorites - a perfect blend of nostalgia, sadness, love, pride, hope and inspiration.

    this one religion, one community, one brotherhood - transcending the demarcations of geography, race, language, habits and cultures - all bowed in worship of One God and obedience and reverence to one Prophet (peace be upon him).

    this ummah is immense - spanning fourteen centuries and across seven continents.

    May Allah ta'ala revive it in all it's piety and grandeur - for the sake of the one:

    saalaar e kaarwaaN hai Mir e Hijaz apnaa
    is naam se hai baaqi aaraam e jaaN hamaara


    peace be upon him.
     
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  19. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    this.
     
  20. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah!
     
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