the ruling of the beard according to hanafi fiqh

Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by abu Hasan, Aug 19, 2018.

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  1. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    You see, we are fair with everyone. Shaykh Asrar is correct here. We don't just criticise for the sake of it.

    So if and when we do question Shaykh Asrar, it is for good reason and not a witch hunt. Otherwise we would criticise him for every ambiguity.

     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    babies should not get into serious discussions. if you are ignorant of usul, qarinah is for you to keep your mouth shut and learn. not dispense ahkam arising from jahalat.

    when RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam commands something, it is indication of wujub.

    now go and find how many hadith and in how many ways you have been enjoined to grow a beard. if you are capable of reading alahazrat's lama'ah al-duHaa, first read it and then come back explaining how alahazrat did not understand as you have done.

    ---
    whoever wrote that book maslak-e-ikhtilal (مسلك إختلال) also makes exceedingly stupid arguments. incidentally, i got to read the book, last night and found that the author does not even understand what he is himself quoting!


    وداء الجهل ليس له طبيب
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  3. ridawi

    ridawi Muhammadi Sunni Hanafi

    Show a hadith where RasulAllah (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) or any of his companions reduced the beard to less than a fistful.
     
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  4. sahir.980

    sahir.980 New Member

    1) according to the first definition of wujub which u mentioned above...... proofs that growing beard is not wajib because there is a qarina (indication) against it i.e from the amal of nabi alaihis salaam of cutting his own beard and from the amal of sahaba ikram of the cutting their own beard (tirmizi).
     
  5. sahir.980

    sahir.980 New Member

    1) according to the first definition of wujub which u mentioned above...... proves that growing beard is not wajib because there is a qarina (indication) against it i.e from the amal of nabi alaihis salaam that he cut his own beard and from the amal of sahaba ikram that they cut their own beard

    2) qarina (indication) against growing beard is cutting the beard, is present in hadis so bcos of this qarina the command of growing beard doesn't become wajib.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  6. kaydani1

    kaydani1 Active Member

  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator


    "not conceivable" is about as academic as it gets.

    and "dude" is the modern academic equivalent of the olde english "sir"

    another academic argument - whine and throw a tantrum and hey, argument proved!

    lol
     
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  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    start a new thread please. and please don't spam this thread when it is clearly marked "hanafi".

    fine. readers will judge. mere denial cannot change the fact, no matter how vociferously you contend.

    yeah, zabidi wasted paper and he should have taken tips from you on what is hujjah and what is not. it is unfortunate that zabidi did not have eminent thinkers like yourself to coach him on how to compile a book.

    also, you write as if you are basirqadri's twin, unless you are the same person. so when are you embarking on a purge of all fiqh books that mention other opinions?

    btw, it'Haf is a sharh of iHya. just so that you know - and there is no monopoly of shafiyis on iHya nor is it useless for Hanafis.

    don't waste your time. now that i have seen your depth, i won't waste mine. wa's salam.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
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  9. ashrafisunni

    ashrafisunni New Member

    That's not true. Just because you say distorted, it doesn't become distorted. Secondly, why would Hanafi scholars quote Shafi, Maliki, Hanbali scholars when they aren't Hujjah or can be used as Hujjah. Waste of paper and time unless there is another reason which you don't want to the readers to know which will blow up your preconceived notions, that you can take the Rajih Qawl.

    anyway dude, it is not conceivable that all 100,000+ sahaba had Minimum and Maximum length of beard as HANDFUL or FISTFUL, if that is your definition of beard (minimum and max lenght handful or fistful otherwise it is not appropriate beard)

    Can we make it academic and scholarly. Can you cite the names of scholars who defined BEARD ONLY AS HANDFUL OR FISTFUL Length.

    What is the minimum and maximum lengths for beard in all school of thoughts ?

    Waiting for your reply.
     
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    sub'HanAllah.

    please read your own quote. you have yourself quoted from zabidi's it'haf and quoted it in a distorted fashion.
    i am just correcting it, as a response to your accusation that i didn't read/understand the citation, which you posted twice.

    as for subki, iraqi etc - it is pertinent to that discussion and in the context of what other posters have said.

    besides, please get this right: our position is only according to Hanafi fuqaha, and that the prescribed length of the beard is fist-length. notice the title of the thread.
     
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  11. ashrafisunni

    ashrafisunni New Member

    @Bazdawi @abu Hasan


    I don't understand why you Abu Hasan quote Imams Ibn Subki, Iraqi, Subki and other shafi in some of his threads, and I also don't understand why would Imam Murtaza Zabidi who is a hanafi quoting Maliki scholars.

    Still waiting for Abu Hasan or Bazdawi to answer

    Can we make it academic and scholarly. Can you cite the names of scholars who defined BEARD ONLY AS HANDFUL OR FISTFUL Length.

    What is the minimum and maximum lengths for beard in all school of thoughts ?

    Waiting for your reply.
     
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    no did not.

    even in qurtubi's and qadi iyad's citation that you have mentioned once again, it is proof for fist-length. other than the fact that neither qurtubi nor qadi iyad are hanafis.

    you must understand the context of the statement and the age in which it was made. there was a time when wearing a beard WAS the normal and even fussaq and apostates did not shave their beards as it was deemed unmanly. so qaDi iyaD, talking about it 900 years ago might not be the same as hamza yusuf talking about it in a room full of clean shaven muslims.
    looks like you have not noticed wahabis, who do not trim their beard and leave it very long and grizzly. the statement above says, and below i am pasting it with the right emphasis:

    The scholar al-Qurtubi said in his Mufham: To cut the beard, to pluck it, and to cut most of it is not allowed. Qadhi Iyaadh has said: To cut the beard from length is “recommended” and to make it so long till the point where fun is made of it, is“disliked” similarly to cut it (excessively) is also “disliked” The early scholars have differed whether there is any limit for cutting the beard or not?​

    Some scholars said: There is no limit prescribed for it, however it should not be made so long that it reaches a point where fun is made of, so some of it should be cut.​

    ----
    i tried to highlight the emphasis but sadly, the above quote is incomplete and if deliberate, it is dishonest.

    here is what zabidi said, from the exact page number that has been cited (i.e., it is the same edition):

    it'Haf sadah al-muttaqin, volume 2 page 419:

    it'hafzabidi, v2p419.png


    =====

    ...al-iraqi deduced from this, that the majority position (jumhur) is to leave the beard untouched, just as it is and not to trim it at all; and this is the position of shafiyi and his companions.

    qaDi iyaD said that it is disliked to shave the beard or to trim it or to distort it [taHrif]; qurtubi in his mufhim said: it is impermissible [laa yajuz] to shave the beard, nor pluck it, nor trim most of it.

    qadi iyad said: to trim it along its length is a good thing [meaning not letting it go excessively lengthy; consistent with the fist-length premise]
     
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  13. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Well-Known Member

    perhaps you are unaware but if you had bothered to read the title, we are discussing the hanafi position; or maybe you are under the assumption that imam qurtubi al-maliki, qadi iyad al-maliki and imam malik were hanafis.
     
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  14. ashrafisunni

    ashrafisunni New Member

    Brother, I think you are not reading the entire text, you are just selecting what suits your purpose.

    From my post again:
    The scholar al-Qurtubi said in his Mufham: To cut the beard, to pluck it, and to cut most of it is not allowed. Qadhi Iyaadh has said: To cut the beard from length is “recommended” and to make it so long till the point where fun is made of it, is“disliked” similarly to cut it (excessively) is also “disliked” The early scholars have differed whether there is any limit for cutting the beard or not?

    Some scholars said: There is no limit prescribed for it, however it should not be made so long that it reaches a point where fun is made of, so some of it should be cut.

    Imam al-Malik has called “excessive length” of beard as “disliked” whereas some have put the limit of fistful for it and said: If the beard exceeds fistful then it should be cut, whereas others said: It is “disliked” to cut it except during Hajj or Umra. [Allama Sayyid Muhammad Murtaza al-Zubaydi Hussaini al-Hanafi, in Itihaaf as Sa’adat al Mutaqeen (2/419), Published by Matba Maymana, Egypt]

    Can we make it academic and scholarly. Can you cite the names of scholars who defined BEARD ONLY AS HANDFUL OR FISTFUL Length.

    What is the minimum and maximum lengths for beard in all school of thoughts ?

    Waiting for your reply.
     
  15. Arguing about the beard is arguing about whether to follow a Sunnah. Allah loves those who follow the Sunnah and the extent of that love being exponential to the degree to which a person follows the Sunnah in general. That is why the Sufiya Ikraam have reached what They reached as they are the people of Sunnah who have become drowned in the Ocean of the Sunnah reaching the Ocean bed and are anchored to it in a way they will never again be allowed to come up for air. For these people, they see the missing of even one Sunnah akin to punishment and the severing of a major life dependant limb.

    So rather than look at the length of the beard only, rather ask how many Sunnahs are attached to this one Sunnah and ask that you be honoured with Them all for arguing is what wastes time and distracts you from Worship. This is a subtle trap. those who argue on the beard seem to be finding an excuse and a way out but you should find every way in.

    Allah Knows Best
     
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  16. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Well-Known Member

    @ashrafisunni maybe you wouldnt have felt the need to copy and paste mawlana saeedis views if you had bothered to read even some of what i wrote. you should try actually reading some time - its not injurious to health; i promise!
     
  17. Bazdawi

    Bazdawi Well-Known Member

    Definition of five-o'clock shadow
    1. : the beginning of a beard that shows up late in the afternoon on the face of a man who has not shaved since morning
    (for those people who may have missed the idiom)
     
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  18. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    :) didn't get what you hinted at? what has beard length to do with prayer times?
     
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    if you have noticed, all the citations you've posted (assuming they are accurate) are proofs for fist-length. i wonder how people ignore the obvious and try to insist that it is proof for five o'clock shadow.
     
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  20. ashrafisunni

    ashrafisunni New Member

    The discussion amongst jurists of Hanafi school in regards to issue of “FISTFUL (beard)” Some latter scholars have called fistful to be necessary. Shaykh Abdul Haq Muhadith Dhelvi was the first one to call fistful as necessary (wajib), however this is the personal
    opinion of this researching scholar, however all our other jurists have written that fistful is “masnoon (sunnah)” and that which scholar Ibn Hammam has written: And to reduce (i.e. major part of beard) just like some westerners and heterosexuals do is not allowed (mubah) according to anyone [Allama Kamal ud din Ibn Hammam, in Fath ul Qadeer (2/270)]

    Some scholars say that in this statement Imam Ibn Hammam has called fistful as necessary (wajib), however, this is not correct. First of all this statement is not in regards to fistful but is rather in regards to “major or prevalent part of the beard” and this is separate from issue of fistful. Secondly, this is correct as none has called this Mubah (allowed) but at the same time no one has called cutting the beard less than
    fistful as haram or prohibitively disliked either until or unless the Wujoob (necessity) of fistful is established. Thirdly, Imam Ibn Hammam has said on same page that the Sunnah in regards to beard is Fistful and this is a categorical proof on the point that fistful is “sunnah not wajib”
    The scholar Ibn Hammam writes: The Sunnah in beard is fistful. [ibid] This is why it is necessary to interpret the second saying of Imam Ibn Hammam, so that his two statements do not become contradictory. This interpretation is that: Permissibility is in the category of being recommended, “hence none has called this Mubah” this means “that none has called this as praiseworthy” which means that none has called it praiseworthy to cut the beard less than fistful because the recommended way is that beard should be kept fistful, rather it is a Sunnah to keep such a long beard that it covers the upper part of chest as it has come in hadiths that the beard if Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) used to cover his chest, and this saying of some scholars is not correct that long beard establishes less intellect. This statement could only be said by that person who has not tasted the sweetness of Prophetic love. This way the scholar Ayni, Ibn Hammam and scholar Ibn Nakheem who have extracted from Nihayah that it is necessary to cut the beard after fistful is also not correct, except if this interpretation is made to prove the meaning of necessity (wajib) just like the scholar Alauddin Haskafi has given this interpretation. [Allama Muhammad bin Ali bin Muhammad Haskafi, in Dur ul Mukhtar ala Hamish Rad ul Mukhtar (2/155), Published
    by Matba Uthmaniyyah, Istanbul, Turkey]
    Similarly, Sayyid Abul Ala Mawdoodi is incorrect to write “In my opinion, somebody’s beard being small or big has no real effect if the emotions of sacrificing your lives and giving total obedience is scarce, then be sure that length of beard will have no benefit to you. [Syed Abul Ala Mawdoodi in Rasail o Masail (1/153), Published by Islamic Publishers, Lahore, Pakistan]
    It states in Qur’an al Majeed: So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see (reward) of it, And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see (punishment) of it. [Surah al-Zalzalah: 7-8]
    This is why anyone who in love of the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) keeps a long beard in order to follow the Sunnah will get reward for it, however if he followed his Nafs and did some sins due to satan overpowering him then he shall be liable for their punishment. Syed Mawdoodi’s this statement is in direct opposition of Qur’an. Some scholars have derived proof from this statement of Dur-e-Mukhtar in regards to necessity of keeping fistful (beard):

    And this is why the author of al-Bazaziyyah said: It is forbidden for man to cut his beard, the reasoning for this is that men resemble one another. [Allama Alauddin Muhammad bin Ali bin Muhammad al-Haskafi, In Dur ul Mukhtar ala Hamish Radul Mukhtar (5/359), Published by Matba Uthmaniyyah, Istanbul, Turkey] When cutting the beard is forbidden then fistful becomes necessary, but this deduction
    is not correct because there is no mention of fistful in this statement nor is it forbidden to cut the beard in totality. The scholar Ibn Bazzaz Kardari has mentioned this statement in context of women imitating men and similarly men imitating women.
    [Allama Muhammad Shahab ud din Ibn Bazzaz Kardari, in Fatawa Bazaziyah ala Hamishil Hindiyyah (6/379), Published by Bolaaq, Egypt]
    And women shall be imitated by cutting the beard when whole of the beard is cut, and to cut the beard completely is Haram even according to us whereas it is necessary to keep beard in totality.


    see the attachment for discussion.
     

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