Respect for a sayyid

Assalam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa barakatuhu,

This is my first post on this forum.

Ive been reading the threads for a while now and masha Allah they are very enlightening, particularly brother Abu Hasan's posts.

Just to give a quick background: Alhamdulillah im a Sunni Muslim with baya'h with Habib Umar and spent time in Tarim, Yemen at the dowra program in the summer of 2007. I

I was not too aware of the deo-brelwi conflict until a few years back since I never really paid it any attention. However, after spending some time with deobandis and considering them to be Sunnis (without realizing the true differences) I came to a realization that there were some oddities and ajeeb contradictions that this group displayed. This is when i began to do more research in to the conflict.

And of course, the thought crossed my mind that what does Habib Umar say about this?..etc. So there is the one audio on youtube that seems to explain Habib Umar's position that both groups are from Ahlussunnah...

However, if you pay attention to the audio, its a general message, and I think it needs to be interpreted correctly...if Habib Umar considers them Ahlusunnah, then he probably is not aware of the depth of the conflict or perhaps he is referring to the general awaam of deobandis who themselves dont know the issues, and by doing so is trying to pull them towards the correct understanding of Ahlusunnah with gentleness and hikmah

For example: if an Aami claims to be deobandi (without truly realizing what he is claiming), then perhaps for him, hearing Habib Umar's message will draw him towards Habib Umar (thinking that Habib is neutral) and then go on to learning correct Aqeedah.

Now i know the above may sound a bit far-fetched for some...

So I personally lean towards the second more reasonable explanation that he truly does not know the depth of the issue nor does he have the time to investigate an issue on the other side of the world when he himself is very busy and immersed in dealing with the affairs of Darul Mustafa, Tarim, and the greater Hadhramawt etc.

Why do I lean towards the second explanation?

I personally recently met a buzurg of around 80-90 years old who was a direct Mureed/Khalifa of Shaykh Yusuf Hashem Rifai. This buzurg (Pakistani) told me that before Shaykh passed away (about a year or so ago), he mentioned to the buzurg (paraphrasing):

"I want to thank you for opening my eyes to the reality of the deobandis and who they truly are, if it wasnt for you, I would have continuously been deceived by them.."

So the reality is that IT IS VERY POSSIBLE for High level Arab Ulema to NOT KNOW the depth of the conflict and the truth behind it.

Wallahu Alam.

 

Bismillah...

Assalamualaikum wa Rahmatullah...

I admit to having less knowledge than you on this subject, Sidi Abu Hasan, but since I am not familliar with these subcontinental polemics I am just going to stay out of this. I am a simple Sunni Ash'ari Shafi'i Ba Alawi and I trust the sscholarship of my teachers who inspire my state to turn to Allah and direct me to Allah with thier words and serve as practical exaples of the Taqwa we are commanded to have...

 

thanks askari bhai. oh ala hazrat! how great thou wert! may the nightingales of paradise sing sweet melodies in thy sacred sepulchre for verily thou hast taught us the true meaning of respecting the Apostle of God. amen!

 

the following should be a hujjat for you:
fatawa razwiyya volume 11 page 23/26

meaning: a syed even if he is a bad-mazhab should be respected because lineage only disconnects with kufr.

"phir bhi syed ka fazl e zati hai ke fisq balkey bad-mazhabi se bhi nahin jata, jab tak ma'azallah hadd e kufr ko na pohanche aur syed sahihun nasab bihamdillah ta'ala iss se mahfuz rahe ga(from kufr)."

 

someone asked the same question to allama saeed as'ad sahib i.e. should we respect a sayyid who is not a sunni and the answer was, 'jo Nabi paak ki party ka hii nahin, us se hamara kya ta'alluq?' [what have we to do with someone who is not even from the Prophet's party (i.e. Ahlus Sunnah)?

 

This is the modern disease of "saaray theek hain" at work (everybody is fine!)
and 'sab musulmaan hain' [we're all muslims]. how come the imams of this faith weren't able to show such generosity to heretics and insulters of the Prophet? صلى الله عليه وسلم

and yet...
when it comes to their elders these same people will bend over backward and sideways and perform more contortions than a Russian ballerina or contortionist to explain away to defend them. Whereas when it comes to the Beloved of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم being insulted they shrug and say 'unity/we're all muslims/benefit of the doubt brother' etc.

i am the worst muslim ever to set foot on this earth -- a disgrace to the very word muslim--but even i can smell a gustaakh from a mile away and i can say with pride i have, to this day, never knowingly prayed behind a deobandi/shia/ or any other heretic.

 

NaqshJ is spot on, there is no fatwa as far as I know on Khomeni being a kafir but on those deobandis it is clear they are kafir yet faqir decides to show respect for the kuffaar and murtads al-iyadhu billah. This was the consistency I was talking about. How is it possible for a Muslim to respect or even stay silent when it comes to gustaakh-e-rasool (SAWAW).

 

almost all books of fiqh and kalam say that insulting the prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is kufr.

and if anybody hesitates in such insulting statements being kufr is also a kafir.

qaDi iyaD says that if anybody doubts in the kufr of such a person, he is a kafir alongside him.

given the above principles, it would then necessitate ruling many mashayikh - al-iyadhu billah - with takfir. so we say, that the arab scholars probably have an excuse.

and if they disown that excuse and insist that those insulting the prophet SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, are still sunni muslims, we cannot do anything about that. then, we have to distance ourselves from such people, even if it is anybody.

anybody.

---
if you are talking about present day deobandis - their hypocrisy does not need to be pointed out. they are very personification of that word.

---
there is nothing such as a "bareilwi-deobandi" split. it is a sunni-wahabi argument. the western deobandi may project himself as a sunni, but back home in india/pakistan they wahabis with the only difference of following the hanafi madh'hab. and in fact, the disease of wahabism was imported by those considered as deobandi elders.

Allah ta'ala knows best.

 

Bismillah...

Assalamualaikum wa Rahmatullah...

Masha Allah, that's your opinion and that's fine but I would prefer to take a different approach, namelt that of the Habaib that I hav studied with, Sayyidi al-Habib Ali and Sayyidi al-Habib Umar... There opinions on the Deobandi-Bareilawi split are well-known. Unfortunately for some, I do not buy into the "oh the arab scholars were tricked by the hypocrisy of the Deobandi's" argument, particularly since I condier the Mashayekh that I have taken the Spiritual Path with, as people of intellect and foresight.

As for the Deobandi's being Kuffar, waLlahu A'lam, but I respectfully disagree, following the exaple of my teachers...

 

the reason i did so was because mr. faqir--who seems to have a soft-spot for deobandits--made a sarcy remark like 'respect for khomeini.fantastic'. my counter was to show that if it is so wrong to respect khomeini --and the reason was for his alleged sayyidness--who was a heretic rafidi but not (as far as i know) declared a kafir by ahlus sunnah scholars, then it is 10x worse to show the sickening respect which faqir always does at every opportunity to the deobandi 'elders' -- who WERE declared kafirs by Sayyidi Ala Hadrat and many other Sunni ulama.

My actual belief is that both the deobandis and the rafidis are equally guilty of heresy and sunnis should shun them both. but, if someone claims to be a sayyid, we should at least respect his bloodline.

 

a sayyid can never be rafidi. the 'sayyids' in iran came after ismail safavi declared himself divine. btw, there are sunni shafi'i sayyids in iran especially among the kurds

 

Bismillah...

Assalamualaikum wa Rahmatullah...

I once heard Shaykh Yahya Rhodus mention in a private class on the Ahl al-Bayt mention that we love the Ahl al-Bayt once for their connection to Rasulullah SallallahuAlayhiWaSallam and then again for their righteousness. (Shaykh Yahya has studied for years with the Habaib)

I also heard Shaykh Samir an-Nass mention that the Shi'a genealogy is flawed and that the majority of the so called Sayyid's of Iran are questionable in the least.

Finally I would like to question the benefit of bringing up the subject of the "deobandi elders" in posts that have nothing to do with the mentioned topic...

 

innovators cannot be sayyid?

nonsense! being sayyid or not is to do with one's geneology and genetics. in shariah if your father is a sayyid you are a sayyid.

that is totally separate from a person's doctrine/dogma [aqidah].

the question was if someone is a sayyid by blood but his or her aqidah is heretical do we still show respect to such a person or not? and it seemed from an earlier post that ala hazrat says that as long as their heresy doesn't cross into kufr we should show respect...

is that a fair precis?

 

Like Faqir has to answer such a mischevoius and insulting question.

 

khomeini --as far as i am aware has not been declared kaafir by any prominent sunni aalam AND he was a sayyid. the deogandi elders you love so much were declared kaafirs by name by ala hazrat and 500 other ulama of india.

caveat emptor: i don't actually admire khomeini as he was a rafidi but i made the last comment based on this discussion about respecitng sayyids ipse facto.

 

faqir, what about your respect for deobandi elders?

 

Salamun 'alaykum

I believe that Allah has addressed this in the Qur'an where he addresses the children of Israel. Allah always mentions the fact that they do wrong to their soul and adresses their soul.

Islam teaches us without a doubt to respect the flesh and blood and he evidences are ample, however, their soul? Do not find it disrespectful to speak to the soul of a sinner clothed in the blessed flesh of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wasallam to tell them they are wrong.

Remind them of their grandfather and his blessed guidance , and the many that went astray from children of Isra'el.

 

respect for khomeini. fantastic.

 

so, ayatollah khomeini is also a sayyid, as are 90% of the rafidii ayatollahs and marja e taqleeds. by this ruling--since they aren't kafirs--we should respect them. seems logical to me....