Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by AR Ahmed, Apr 4, 2023.

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  1. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    [
    Why aunni ulama cannot speak about Allah Subhabu wa Ta'la without pointing their finger towards the sky?
     
  2. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Shaykh ul Hadith sahib speaks sense



     
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  3. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    the more I think about it the more I feel that this was a pre-planned psyop - how many of those involved knew it to be such and how many were opportunistically jumping the bandwagon - Allah alone knows.

    a modicum of public consent was manufactured so that jalali sahib's arrest would'nt lead to mass protests. see how all the great "conferences" have suddenly dried up after the arrest - the "silencing" operation was successfully executed.

    where's mawlana kaukab sahib now? why is he silent? and where is qari tayyib sahib? no naseehas now?

    not one from the opposing camp has expressed even fake concern for the arrested sunni mazloom - even on purely humanitarian grounds (so far as I am aware).

    is this how you treat a colleague - even if you vehemently disagree with him?

    sayyid muzaffar sahib - totally disappointed.
    khadim sahib - totally disappointed.
    irfan sahib - lost for words.

    these couldn't have been unaware of what they were doing - I will have to start believing in far fetched conspiracies or powerful possession and magic - to give them the benefit of doubt.

    I believe this is the bubble of sunni taqrirism finally burst.

    all skilled muqarrirs - all whose speeches would move you to say ash ash - they'll pull a she'r from Alahazrat, a farsi she'r from bustan of saadi, another from shah waliAllah, and will mesmerize you with the oracular poetry of Iqbaal - you'd think you were flying in the heavens. They will be invited to sprawling na'at mega-events - and will be seen swaying and occasionally in wajd. All anchors and na'at khwaans are in awe of them.

    but now you see, there's no substitute to knowledge - no matter how dry you might find it.

    muqarrirs might be good for a leisurely weekend - but if you are serious about saving your skin in the akhira - better go to the most dry and the most tongue-tied and the most anonymous - a mere mawlana of a scholar - sitting in some obscure madrasah.

    he won't make you fly in the air - but at least he will tell you the plain truth - a bitter dose of realism is infinitely better than the sense of complacency engendered by a firery taqreer.

    Allah knows best.
     
  5. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    I listened to his entire clip. even if I don't agree with everything Molana Ghufran Silyalwi Sahab has said, I really appreciate that he came out and spoke on the issue unequivocally. I had never listened to him before. MashaAllah. May Allah Ta'ala protect him from all sort of fitan
     
  6. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    From Baraily Sharif
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Ahmet Tayfur

    Ahmet Tayfur New Member

    JazakAllaahu Khayran
     
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    bahar e shariat, dawate islami edition vol.2 part 16, p.524

    the arabic texts from al-targhib wa'l tarhib of al-munziri.
     
  9. Ahmet Tayfur

    Ahmet Tayfur New Member

    Can you kindly provide a page number for reference. Personal and social rectification.

    JazakAllaahu Khayran
     
  10. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Mawlana Ghufran Siyalwi.

     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I think the formulation is self-evidently contradictory. However, I will share my other impressions later.
     
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    that's an important point.

    Years ago, I have heard a young (as in 20 something) muqarrir sahib, say in a jum'ah bayan, that surah qalam-verse 13 'proves' that every wahabi is born out of wedlock!

    He emphasized it several times, saying: it's not my hukm, the Qur'an says that.

    His logic?
    1. The Qur'an says that a gustakh was born out of wedlock
    2. All wahabis are gustakh
    3. Hence proved

    Having tons of wahabi relatives myself, including real aunts and uncles, I was thinking ... umm .. what?

    Now at the time I was just getting initiated with deeni topics so didn't have any recourse but my own limited knowledge and mind, so imagine the emotional turmoil of a teenager who's just heard such a thing - he doesn't want to go "against" the Qur'an and, on the other hand, has his ancestors to think about...

    At last I consoled myself with the ta'weel that all my close relatives were born sunnis and crossed over to wahabism much much later in their lives.

    ----

    even if it were a mutawatir hadith the abuse couldn't be justified as there is no gustakhi in the first place!
     
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    those who use weak hadith to justify abusing other muslim's parents need to tell us, why shouldn't they be judged similarly on the basis of hadith whose status is higher (hasan or sahih).

    these hadith from al-targhib wa'l tarhib of al-munziri.

    trghib-munziri, 3883.png


    trghib-munziri, 4013.png

    trghib-munziri, 4018.png

    trghib-munziri, 4024.png

    trghib-munziri, 4025.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    yes it is accepted in fadail - but it is not a swiss knife that can be pulled out by people to justify anything they do.

    ---
    there are numerous such hadith which say that such and such an action is tantamount to kufr or fisq etc.

    a person who does gheebah is worse than committing adultery.
    a person who takes interest is worse than committing adultery.
    a person who omits prayer deliberately has committed kufr.

    etc. etc.

    so will you use these hadith and apply rulings literally? so all those who take interest, will you begin calling them "a son born out of forbidden act"? and takfir made of every muslim who does not pray regularly?

    ====
    why don't we apply the same standards and apply "implications" from SAHIH hadith for those who commit things such as hurling profanities and using foul-language?

    i have to reiterate that "implications" from a weak hadith become proof for abusing a muslim's mother; but there cannot be any implication from SAHIH hadith that explictly forbid certain action!

    rafizi zeal encapsulated in khariji fatawa... laa Hawla wa laa quwwata illa billah.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the astute reader will not miss the groups mentioned - ahl e bayt, anSar and the arabs.
     
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  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    isn't it amusing that a weak hadith is used as an excuse to utter gaalis, BUT naSS qaT'yi and sahih hadith ignored?

    if the hadith "whoever hurt faTimah has hurt me" should be taken literally for the implication, why shouldn't the hadith "sibab al-muslim fisq" be taken literal likewise?

    so ta'wil is a convenient tool that need not be governed by any rules.

    ====

    abu'sh shaykh in tabaqat al-muhaddithin, v3 p414:

    tabaqat abush shaykh, v3p415.png
    tabaqat abush shaykh, v3p415b.png
     
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  17. Zillay_Shah

    Zillay_Shah Sunni

    JazakhAllah Khair for that information. I guess they would argue in fadhail it’s acceptable and that ala hazrat mentioned it.

    Could you touch a little on my second question as the general application of this camps interpretation of masum and Mahfouz and then the application on all Sadat e ikram without takhsis. Interestingly the rawafidh akhbaris all apply such narrations to all Sadat e ikram, whereas the usuli bunch do takhsis as for them Ahlul Bayt is only 14 personalities.
     
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the hadith has sanad but it is weak.

    musnad al-firdaws, #5955
    msnd firdaws, n5955 v3p626.png


    maqasid al-Hasanah #21 (mentioned under another related hadith)

    mqsd hasn, n21.png



    shu'ab al-iman #1614 (new DKI ed) v2 p232

    shu'ab, 1614, v2p232.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  19. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    In case people have forgotten a few years ago Irfan Shah also mentioned that "Allah khud gustakh ko gaali deta hai". I have been trying to search for that video to no avail. However I found this video where he responds to somebody who asks him the question whether it is appropriate to use the word 'gaali' with Allah.



    His logic is twisted when he uses that as a reference to being a gaali and how we can give gaalis to any gustakh. By this own twisted logic he has perhaps thought it to be fine to utter all that filth he did about mufti Jalali sahibs mother!

    So as per my understanding it absolutely fine according to Irfan Shah to use the derogatory word 'gaali' for the creator whereas it is totally unacceptable to use the term 'khata' towards Sayyida Fatima Zahra!
     
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is mentioned in a fatwa by alahazrat:
    fatawa ridawiyyah v22 p420-21

    FR v22p420.png

    FR v22p421.png

    [thanks to aqdas who pointed that it was mentioned by alahazrat]
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020

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