abu ja'afar hanbali (jurjis?)

Discussion in 'Bibliophile's Corner' started by abu Hasan, Nov 10, 2018.

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  1. Juwayni

    Juwayni Well-Known Member

    Mawlana @abu Hasan

    Why do they need an 'ijmah' to say individual Qadiyanis are kāfir? Where do they draw the line? According to them, are individual Sikhs non-takfirable because someone somewhere may have written a book saying their Guru Nanak was a Muslim and attended the Hajj? How about the Druze. What about the so-called 'Hussaini Brahmins', about whom [naql i kufr, kufr na bashad] some say:

    "Wah Dutt Sultan, Hindu ka dharm, Musalman ka iman, Adha Hindu adha Musalman.’"​

    Does he hesitate to consider every individual follower of Musaylimah al-Kaddhāb a kāfir too? Or how about the so-called "Atheist Muslim"? Perhaps he hesitates on that one too. In fact, what does Jurjis even have to say about Maʿlūm min ad-Dīn bi-Ḍarūrah? Would someone saying they are Muslim while openly rejecting every other tenet of the faith still come within his nuance?
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  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    @Umar99 please forward it to that mardood and tell him to renew his iman and nikah. if he still insists, he will be under the exact same ruling of qadianis themselves.

    Incidentally, that Azhari Risalah has quite a few references to Ali Miyan nadwi. So was he too a Barelvi, or does this mardood too believe like zaleel and his chamchas that we are funding Arab and North African shuyukh?
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  3. Juwayni

    Juwayni Well-Known Member

    Fatwa from Azhar on Qadiyanis

    Attached Files:

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  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the jahil shaykh made so many historically inaccurate claims which were debunked.
    the same ignorance and confidence leads him to make such a statement.

    no cure for such a malady.

    so we can say that jurjis believe that RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is not the last prophet. al iyadhu billah.

    jurjis should do tajdid e iman.
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  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I didn't read this thread. Just saw @Umar99 post and the comment of the clown he cited.

    If this idiot is truthful, let him bring a written statement from the elders of wahabis and devbandis saying they don't consider all qadianis as kafirs, or a statement of Al-Azhar which has also declared takfir of all qadianis.
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  6. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    Recently on Facebook, a student of Abu Jafar has been arguing that not every qadiyani is kafir, quoting his shaykh.

    It began with this:


    Then once some objected to this, he responded:

    A statement of Shaikh Abu Ja`far Al-Hanbali regarding the Qadiyaniyyah/Ahmadiyyah

    "The same scholars that made general takfir on the Ahmadiyyah are the same who made general takfir on the Salafiyyah. Yes, claiming another prophet after the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, is a major kufr; but so is likening Allah to His Creation, changing End Time Prophecy, saying that most of the Ummah are idol worshippers, Salvation is by faith and deeds, that one could have a part of tawhid and not another and still be a Muslim.

    This is why our grand scholars like Sulaiman ibn `Abdul Wahhab, `Alawi Al-Haddad, `Abdullah ibn Dawud al-Basri and others made general takfir on Salafiyyah; but using the same principles the scholars `Abdul Latif as-Subki, Mustafa ash-Shatti and others, Allah be pleased with all of them, made the same general takfir on Ahmadiyyah, without calling each and every Ahmadi an unbeliever.

    This is consistent with the practice of the two Shaikhs of Islam Abu Bakr as-Siddiq and `Umar ibn Al-Khattab, who when fighting the Hinderers from Zakah, did not kill them all as apostates (although there was Sajjah, Musailimah, Tulaihah al-Asadi and Al-Aswad al-`Ansi, all false prophets) or say each and every one of them was an apostate. In fact, some of them even took these people as war captives. This is not permissible when you consider each and every one of a group and apostate. Please see The Divine Lightning, pp. 135-140, where Imam Abu Sulaiman al-Khattabi, may Allah have mercy on him, goes into remarkable details regarding this matter and fleshes out a great deal of benefit.

    There is no Consensus of the Majority on them not being referred to as Ahmadiyyah, otherwise the rest of the scholars would have known it. Please research the statements of Imam Muhammad Abu Zahra and others that have fleshed out that not every Ahmadiyyah member is an unbeliever and there are actually two jama`ahs within them, a smaller group who believe that he is not a prophet and a larger group who believe he is, this is why not every cultist is an unbeliever."

    In short, we consider the cults to be kuffar in general but we do not make individual takfir on them, only if our scholars have made specific takfir on individuals.


    Then in response to criticism he decided to declare us to be aberrant, I wonder if he also learnt this from his shaykh.

  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    رضي الله عنهم
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    imam ibn qudamah (muwaffaquddin) was a great man, known for his knowledge, piety and worship. he himself says that he benefited from the shaykh - and indeed, he did - we ask Allah ta'ala to give us his barakah. and if the company of 50 days could do this to him, then, what is the reason a man like sayyidi abdu'l Razzaq cannot be an inheritor of the ghawth's knowledge in spite of living for nearly 33 years with the shaykh since birth?

    after all, he spent more years with the shaykh - sub'HanAllah, he was one of the shaykh's own sons and considered the worthiest of them all; he was mentored by his own father, as he made him sit in classes of hadith from a very young age. hafiz Diya'a al-maqdisi, ibn qudamah's nephew and a major hadith scholar says that 'he (shaykh abd al-Razzaq) was the the best scholar in all of baghdad for his knowledge and research abilities.' that he was very pious and abstemious (zuhd, wara') among other noble qualities.

    do you think it makes sense, that a 20-year old newcomer and stays for a little more than a month and gets khilafah, while his own son - qualified and able, 33 years of age and spent all his life under the shaykh's watchful eye is denied khilafah?

    sub'HanAllah! does it make sense?

    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i will, in sha'Allah, post lots of references, but to keep the discussion focused here is the summary:

    i have checked many biographies, histories, but none of them mention that abu umar al-maqdisi studied under shaykh abdu'l qadir. much less that he spent many years (as implied in the talk "middle of his studies") or that he went back and forth.

    i couldn't find his name in tadifi's list, nor in siyar of dhahabi or dhayl tabaqat of ibn rajab or maqSad al-arshad of ibn mufliH, or rawDatayn of abu shamah. if i have missed something, please help me.

    oh yeah? which year was this exactly? because according to abu jafar's history, shaykh muwaffaq came back and forth to baghdad and one last time, rehearsed the books with the ghawth. which means this was over a period of years - and he says four years.

    so approximately, which year did muwaffaq join his brother abu umar in baghdad?

    hmm. this gives the impression that muwaffaquddin ibn qudamah studied with al-ghawth for approximately four years - give and a take a few months when he went back and forth to damascus.

    nice story, eh? except that it is all muddled up. here be the facts:

    - muwaffaquddin ibn qudamah and his cousin, abdu'l Ghani ibn abd al-waHid, reached baghdad in 561 AH.

    - both cousins were young men of twenty years of age. (both were born in year 541 AH).

    - according to various accounts, they spent a very short time of 40-50 days with the ghawth, who passed away soon after.

    - during this short period of < 50 days, shaykh muwaffaq read mukhtaSar al-khiraqi, [of which, mughni is a commentary] with shaykh abdu'l Qadir.

    - in these 50 days, the shaykh made them wear the khirqah - or made them murid/khalifah in the Tariqah of Qadiriyyah.

    - after the passing of the shaykh, imam muwaffaquddin stayed in baghdad for four years; then he returned to damascus;

    - thereafter, in the year 567 AH, he returned to baghdad and stayed there for one more year; [and returned to damascus];

    - then went on Hajj in the year 574 AH and went back to baghdad in the company of Hajis from baghdad and stayed there for an year and then he came back to damascus, where he began writing his mughni. [see dhayl tabaqat of ibn rajab, 3/282-283]. it is quite possible that he was writing it prior to this, but certainly NOT during his first visit to baghdad, when he was merely 20 and still a student.
    tbqt ibnrajb, v3p283.png

    notice that the above is narrated by Hafiz Diya'a al-maqdisi who is the nephew of muwaffaquddin ibn qudamah, via his mother (i.e. imam muwaffaq's sister).

    and his other nephew, shamsuddin abdur RaHman, the son of abu umar said: "my paternal uncle muwaffaquddin would say: 'i and hafiz abdul ghani wore the khirqah at the hands of shaykh al-islam abdul Qadir at the same time; we studied with him fiqh and we heard from him (hadith), and we benefited from his company; we [could stay with him] and attained only 50 nights from his blessed life.

    qalayid, p6.png

    in ibar of dhahabi, v3, p36 he notes:

    ibar, v3p36b.png

    shaykh muwaffaq said: 'we stayed with him in his madrasah for 39 days, he passed away thereafter. we prayed his funeral prayer."
    could be. but it is not recorded that he started writing in baghdad. it can be extrapolated that he probably 'prepared' by studying under the various shaykhs. so it is a speculative statement.

    this is actually said by the presenter. i understand he is some sort of author too as he mentioned his book. but abu jafar agrees with him and extends that statement.

    once again, this is a glaring error. i reiterate, that we too mix up things and get names and dates wrong at times, or even facts turned around about not-so-famous people. but for someone to make a specific claim about such a well-known personality and author as ibn al-jawzi, and THEN confidently dismiss all those who come via shaykh abd al-Razzaq al-jilani as 'liars' and impostors is rather ironic.

    i examined more than a dozen biographies of ibn al-jawzi, and i couldn't see the name of shaykh abdu'l qadir among his teachers. and ibn al-jawzi himself in his al-muntazam [18/174] mentioned the passing of shaykh abdu'l qadir without noting that he was his teacher:

    muntazam, v18p174.png

    thereafter, i checked his mashaykhah - the listing of his mashayikh where he listed 86 of shaykhs (see attachment) and i couldn't see the name of ghawth e aazam. i checked 3 times to make sure, but i couldn't see the name. nor has any of the biographies of shaykh abdul Qadir said that ibn al-jawzi narrates from him.

    so the story of ibn al-jawzi being a student is apocryphal.

    actually, the fact that ibn qudamah spent less than fifty days is mentioned in various biographies.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the impression you get from abu ja'afar's narration is:

    - abu umar al-maqdisi went back and forth to baghdad to learn under shaykh abdu'l qadir

    - he was a student of shaykh abdu'l qadir al-jilani and one of his 'designated' khulafa

    - shaykh muwaffaquddin ibn qudamah, who is abu umar's brother came to baghdad in the middle of abu umar's studies in baghdad under sayyidi abdu'l qadir.

    - shaykh muwafaq ibn qudamah came back and forth to baghdad and spent a long time learning with the shaykh.

    - now, for one last time, (because he says 'ultimately') he and his classmates rehearse their lessons with the shaykh over a period of 40-45 days before the passing of the shaykh.

    - al-mughni is his first major text.

    - shaykh muwaffaq started preparing al-mughni during his stay in baghdad.

    - one of those classmates of muwaffaquddin ibn qudamah and abu umar ibn qudamah is ibn al-jawzi.

    - ibn al-jawzi took hadith from shaykh abdul qadir al-jilani

    - they are all designated khulafa of the shaykh. this is important because of his claim further and denying that right to sayyidi abdu'l Razzaq al-jilani.

    how many of these statements are true? in sha'Allah, we will soon see.

    sigh. it is this man who is handing out certificates of khilafah to the likes of sayyidi abdul Razzaq al-jilani and denying qaadiriyat to all those who reach the quTub via him!

    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    so, let us learn a little about imam ibn qudama al-maqdisi.

    first let us hear the history from the "authority" on qadiri tariqah, who KNOWS the khulafa of al-ghawth very well:

    the presenter says: so imam muwaffaquddin ibn qudamah spends time studying in damascus and then in baghdad; and in baghdad that is where he studies with imam abdul qadir al-jilani.

    "authority": yes in baghdad, he heads there and stays there for four years. he comes back and forth three times. now while he is in baghdad, he is present and he is preparing his first major text, which is al-mughni. and al-mughni is ten volumes. it is a commentary, a very large commentary on the mukhtasar al-khiraqi, abu umar al-khiraqi, so he is preparing this text over a four year period. and this..while he is in baghdad that he meets imam abdul qadir al-jilani rahimahullah, who dies in the year 561 hijri at 91 years of age. so he meets the imam there and begins to study with him. now, abu umar al-maqdisi, his brother, had long been there gone back and forth there, but muwaffaquddin ibn qudama, he comes in, in the middle portion of his brother's studies while there, and is sort of brought in to the presence of this great imam and begins to take knowledge from him, he ultimately before the imam's death, he and his brothers as well as a few classmates, rehearse all of the imams knowledge over a 40 to 45 day period before he dies.

    interviewer: right and one of the classmates was imam abd al-rahman ibn al-jawzi.

    "authority": yes. and abd al-raHman ibn al-jawzi is a direct descendant of abu bakr al-siddiq. and his..when you look at imam abdul qadir al-jilani rahimahullah, his achievements and his scholarly accomplishments, were such that, he encompassed all the major areas. but each student that took from him, that he designated as a successor, took away a certain aspect. so, abdar Rahman ibn al-jawzi, his aspect he took away and he stayed in baghdad was his knowledge of hadith classification, tafsir and other areas.

    how many howlers there? i began ticking them off, when i first heard the above.
    he has gotten everything wrong in there. but the confidence with which he tells it is admirable.

    i will presently write on all of this but you need to look up biographies of the following imams:

    1. muwaffaquddin ibn qudamah
    2. abdu'l ghani ibn abdu'l wahid al-maqdisi
    3. abu umar muhammad ibn ahmad ibn qudamah al-maqdisi
    4. sayyidi abdu'l qadir jilani
    5. abu'l faraj abdul raHman ibn al-jawzi

    and a few others from the following main texts:

    1. rawDatayn of abu shamah
    2. siyar of dhahabi
    3. tarikh of dhahabi
    4. ibar of dhahabi
    5. shadharat of ibn imad
    6. dhayl tabaqat of ibn rajab
    7. nujum al-zahirah
    8. al-bidayah wa'l nihayah of ibn kathir
    9. qala'id al-jawahir of tadifi
    10. tazkiratu'l huffaz of dhahabi
    11. mir'atuz zaman of sibt ibn al-jawzi

    and some more works which are mostly derived from the earlier sources.

    though i could have settled this with only one or two of the above works, i have strived to look up authorities available to me just to make sure that i have not overlooked anything. if there is something else that i have missed, which abu ja'afar has access to - then i would be interested in looking it up. it may be possible that he is citing from a source that i have not thought of looking up - or i don't know that such a source exists.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
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  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i do not know why abu ja'afar is so confident that shaykh abdul razzaq is not an inheritor of the tariqah, in spite of being a scholar, the best among the shaykh's sons, and whom the shaykh trained from boyhood as noted by contemporary historians (who happen to be hadith scholars themselves).

    i thought perhaps it has to do with the well known and oft-quoted statement of imam ibn qudamah al-maqdisi, that has been quoted in other places as well, but here it is from qalayid of tadifi, p6:

    qalayid, p6.png

    shams al-din abd al-Rahman ibn abu umar al-maqdisi says: "i have heard my uncle, shaykh muwaffaquddin (ibn qudamah) say: "i and hafiz abdu'l Ghani wore the cloak (khirqah) by the hand of shaykh al-islam abdu'l Qadir al-jilani at the same time; thereafter we studied fiqh under him, and heard narrations and we benefited from his company"

    so i thought, this explicit mention of khirqah (which is the form of bay'ah we do in our times) might have led abu ja'afar to deny khilafah for shaykh abdu'r Razzaq.

    but abu ja'afar says there are more people who are the shaykh's khulafa. he says "we know their names"

    so we know the cousins muwaffaquddin and abdu'l ghani wore the khirqah, and put on them by shaykh abd al-qadir jilani.

    [the khirqah is some kind of clothing - a cloak or a turban - that a teacher puts on his disciple indicating that he has admitted him to his company and thus designated a disciple. among specific monographs on the subject are: bad' al-ulqah fi lubs al-khirqah by jamaluddin yusuf ibn abd al-hadi al-hanbali (d.909 AH); note that this ibn abd al-hadi is not ibn taymiyyah's student, the contumelious critic of subki].

    does that mean that whoever is not mentioned as having worn the khirqah at the hands of the shaykh is not his murid/khalifah?

    because tadifi mentions a number of khulafa, without specifying that they wore the khirqah.
    qalayid, p9.png

    qalayid, p10.png
    qalayid, p11.png

    so, the above are khulafa, even if the khirqah is not mentioned.

    and the author specifies in the beginning itself that those who are disciples of the shaykh are innumerable; which means this is just a short list and if a certain name does not appear in the list, it does not mean that they are not khalifah/murid unless there is evidence to the contrary.

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  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    shadharat al-dhahab fi akhbari man dhahab, v7 p18-19
    abu'l falaH abdul Hayy ibn aHmad ibn Muhammad al-akariyy al-Hanbali al-dimashqi (1032-1089).

    shazrat, v7p18.png

    shazrat, v7p19.png
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  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in kitab al-taqyid li ma'arifati al-ruwwati wa's sunani wa'l masanid. v2 p109

    by abu bakr muhammad ibn abd al-Ghani, ibn al-nuqTah, d.629 AH.

    taqyid ibnnuqtah, v2p109.png
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ibn kathir in his bidayah wa'l nihayah copied from abu shamah as well: v15, p15:

    bidyanihayah, v15 p15.png
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    jamaluddin abi'l maHasin yusuf ibn taghri bardi al-atabaki (813-874 AH) copied from abu shamah in his al-nujum al-zahirah fi muluki miSr wa'l qahirah. vol.6 p.192:

    nujum atabaki, v6 p192.png
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    abu shamah, shihabuddin abd al-raHman ibn ismayil ibn ibrahim ibn uthman al-maqdisi al-dimashqi al-shafiyi.
    shaykh of imam al-nawawi; d. 665 AH.

    in his kitab al-rawDatayn fi akhbar al-dawlatayn, vol.5 p.87

    rawdatayn, v5 p87.png
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    also in al-ibar fi khabari man ghabar, dhahabi, v3 p.134

    ibar, v3p134.png
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    dhahabi said the same in his tarikh al-islam, v43 p119-120:

    tarikhzhby, v43p119.png
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  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ibn al-najjar, a hadith scholar and student of sayyidi abd al-Razzaq recollects the merits of his teacher and his prominence and describes his funeral.

    but according to modern day researchers - he was not an inheritor of his father's knowledge!

    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
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