among the people of the book - 3:199

Discussion in 'Tafsir' started by SuleimanalMuslim, Mar 29, 2012.

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  1. If the issue is in not hearing about the Messenger (salla Llahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) - which is another issue altogether, and nothing to do with what Tahir says - then how are ahl al-kitab different from any other groups in that regard?
     
  2. khadim.awliya

    khadim.awliya Banned

    brother abu hasan, you didn't give me a chance to answer and you were waiting for my reply. Patience is a virtue. Anyway, Allah have mercy on us.

    The argument was basically, those from Ahl al Kitab who do not know about Islam and they are Unitarians can they have salvation.

    I am aware of this hadith Imam Muslim reported in his Sahih from the hadith of Abu Hurairah, may Allah the Most High be pleased with him, who said, “Allah’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم said, ‘There is no man from this Ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me and then does not believe in me except that he will enter the Fire.’
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2012
  3. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    BarakAllahu fik, Sidi Abu Hasan!!
     
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    KS said:
    and you fell in the trap. be careful in the future.

    ---
    KA (khadim.awliya) appears to not have read the book because, though the first para is from imam suyuTi's lubabu'n nuqul, the second paragraph is definitely not from the book. at least not ALL of it is from the book.

    is it deliberate deceit? is it because of ignorance? is it mindless forwarding of somebody else's deceit?

    ----
    KA says, he is reading suyuti's work and cites the first para and links to an online version of the book. the first para has nothing much of interest. and yes; certainly this para is quoted from lubab as i have checked other printed versions.
    قوله تعالى : { وإن من أهل الكتاب } الآية روى النسائي عن أنس لما جاء نعي النجاشي [ قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : صلوا عليه قالوا : يا رسول الله نصلي على عبد حبشي ] فأنزل الله { وإن من أهل الكتاب لمن يؤمن بالله } وروى ابن جابر وفي المستدرك عن عبد الله بن الزبير قال : نزلت في النجاشي { وإن من أهل الكتاب لمن يؤمن بالله } الآية
    Allah ta'ala says: "and verily, among the people of the book.." nasayi reports narrating from anas that when the news of najashi's death reached [madinah] RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "pray upon him"
    they asked:"ya RasulAllah! shall we pray on an ethiopian slave?" then the verse was revealed: "and verily among the people of the book and those who shall bear faith in Allah..."

    it is reported from ibn jabir and in al-mustadrak from abdullah ibn zubayr: [this verse] was revealed concerning najashi: "and verily, among the people of the book are those who shall bear faith in Allah..."
    --------------
    the second para is interesting. erroneously or intentionally, the following para is added giving the impression that it is a continuation of the previous text and perhaps this is also in suyuTi's lubab. in fact, the major portion of the para2 IS from suyuti's lubab. so if anyone dismisses the second-para, they will point out that it is indeed in lubab. or else, the sleight of hand remains unnoticed.

    KA's highlighting in red coupled with the disclaimer on the top, makes me ask all these questions. if KA had truly read the book, how could he miss this? anyway; KA posted (emphasis coloring by khadim):

    وقال آخرون: نزلت هذه الآية بسبب موت النجاشي، وفي ذلك يروي الطبري عن قتادة أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: إن أخاً لكم قد مات -يعني النجاشي- فصلوا عليه، قالوا: نصلي على رجل ليس بمسلم! فنـزلت: {وإن من أهل الكتاب لمن يؤمن بالله} (آل عمران:199)، قالوا: فإنه كان لا يصلي إلى القبلة! فأنزل الله: {ولله المشرق والمغرب}، قال ابن كثير: وهذا غريب.


    ----
    first of all, this is not a contiguous quote. the first para is under verse 199 of surah aal-imran, and part of the second para is under verse 115 of surah al-baqarah. this citation above has two issues: additions and deletions. if you follow the very link to suyuti's book provided by KA, you will see this (typo corrected):

    وأخرج ابن جرير عن قتادة [ أن النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم قال إن أخا لكم مات يعني النجاشي فصلوا عليه قالوا : نصلي على رجل غير مسلم ] فنزلت { وإن من أهل الكتاب لمن يؤمن بالله } الآية قالوا : فانه كان لا يصلي إلى القبلة فأنزل الله { ولله المشرق والمغرب } الآية . غريب جدا وهو مرسل أو معضل


    ----
    there are these additions:

    وقال آخرون: نزلت هذه الآية بسبب موت النجاشي، وفي ذلك يروي الطبري عن قتادة أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: إن أخاً لكم قد مات -يعني النجاشي- فصلوا عليه، قالوا: نصلي على رجل ليس بمسلم! فنـزلت: {وإن من أهل الكتاب لمن يؤمن بالله} (آل عمران:199)، قالوا: فإنه كان لا يصلي إلى القبلة! فأنزل الله: {ولله المشرق والمغرب}، قال ابن كثير: وهذا غريب

    obviously, this second para is cited from another text. i would like to 'think of excuses' for the other party and i will assume that the link/reference to the second para was missed in haste or neglect. such things happen to all of us. so here is the link from where the text has been posted by KA.

    ---
    this may sound rather nitpicky. but we have to look beyond mere highlighted snippets. the second paragraph (P2) is from an article on islamweb explaining reasons of revelation of 2:115 and other verses related to qiblah. unless somebody is actively searching for 'christians as believers', it is not likely that they will come across this article except in the context of a discussion of qiblah and related verses. but let us assume they somehow do.

    but before we proceed, a translation of P2 as posted by KA is in order:
    and some others have said: this verse was revealed upon the death of najashi. and tabari narrates this in this context from qatadah that the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "your brother najashi is dead, so pray upon him." they said: "shall we pray upon a person who is not a muslim?" the following verse was revealed: "and among the people of the book are those who shall bear faith in Allah..." (3:199) they said:"but he did not pray facing qiblah" then Allah ta'ala revealed the verse: "the east and the west belong to Allah.." (2:115). ibn kathir said: this is an uncommon (gharib) report.
    and just for clarification, here is a translation from suyuTi's lubab (not posted by KA):
    ibn jarir (al-tabari) has extracted (this hadith) from qatadah's narration that: the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "your brother najashi is dead, so pray upon him." they said: "shall we pray upon a person who is not a muslim?" the following verse was revealed: "and among the people of the book are those who shall bear faith in Allah..." (3:199) they said:"but he did not pray facing qiblah" then Allah ta'ala revealed the verse: "the east and the west belong to Allah.." (2:115). this is a very strange report and it is either mursal or mu`uDal.
    [mursal:tabiyi narrating directly from RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam missing one link - the Sahabi; mu`uDal: tabiyi al-tabi'yi narrating directly from RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam missing two links of both Sahabi and tabi`yi.]

    --------------
    it is obvious, that this is one among other reports concerning the circumstances of the revelation of the verse 2:115, and suyuti has said that it is a very weak one.

    -----
    once you understand the quotes presented by KA in post1, you will probably ask the same questions i did in post3. where exactly is his confusion?

    -----
    now for the point highlighted by khadim:

    قالوا: نصلي على رجل ليس بمسلم

    shall we pray upon a man, who is not a Muslim?

    it is as if he says:
    1. P2 indicates that najashi was not a muslim

    2. P1 indicates that najashi was among the ahl al-kitab

    3. P1 also indicates that najashi was considered as a believer.

    4. hence, ahl al-kitab are believers.

    please note that KA did not say that, but that was the insinuation. and that is why i sought clarification. now KA implied thus by the disclaimer above and the positioning of statements within asbabu'n nuzul implying thus by saying:
    -----
    the premise that najashi was not a muslim is itself rejected for many reasons:
    a) SaHiH hadith attest to his being a muslim, and it is mutawatir in this ummah. [these hadith are found in bukhari]

    b) the P2 hadith does not say that najashi was not a muslim; (if it really was) it was some of the companions who voiced their doubts; they didn't know it and Allah ta'ala informed them that najashi was a muslim. [vide tafsir Tabari]

    c) but in tafsir of 3:199, it is said that this statement was actually made by hypocrites who aired their discontentment. in tafsir tabari (note that it is the same tafsir in which the red highlight from KA's quote is found which is next to the following!)

    from qatadah narrating from sayid ibn al-musayyib narrating from jabir ibn abdullah that RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: "come out and pray for your brother" and prayed with us, by saying four takbirs and said: "this is the negus, aS'Hamah" the hypocrites said: "look at him, he prays on a christian renegade whom we have never seen." and this verse was revealed: "and verily among the people of the book are those who shall bear faith in Allah..."

    d) there are many other narrations to the same effect that this statement: 'he was not even a muslim' was made by hypocrites.

    e) even otherwise, the verse is mentioned partially in the tafsirs and islamweb, assuming that people will know the full verse. i will cite a few more words from this lengthy verse: "and verily, among the people of the book are those who shall bear faith in Allah and believe in that which was revealed to you..."

    that is, najashi became a muslim and accepted that was revealed to RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. in the same tafsir of tabari:

    فـالآية وإن كانت نزلت فـي النـجاشي، فإن الله تبـارك وتعالـى قد جعل الـحكم الذي حكم به للنـجاشي حكماً لـجميع عبـاده الذين هم بصفة النـجاشي فـي اتبـاعهم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم والتصديق بـما جاءهم به من عند الله، بعد الذي كانوا علـيه قبل ذلك من اتبـاع أمر الله فـيـما أمر به عبـاده فـي الكتابـين: التوراة والإنـجيـل. فإذا كان ذلك كذلك، فتأويـل الآية: وإن من أهل الكتاب التوراة والإنـجيـل لـمن يؤمن بـالله، فـيقرّ بوحدانـيته، وما أنزل إلـيكم أيها الـمؤمنون

    this verse, even though it has been revealed specifically for najashi, the ruling as ordained by Allah ta'ala for najashi is generic for all His slaves with the attributes of najashi; that is to follow RasulAllah sallAllahu `alayhi wa sallam and attest to the Message that he brought to them from Allah ta'ala, after they were already following the commandments of Allah that had come to them prior to this message; those commands that Allah ta'ala ordained his slaves among the people of the two books: the tawrah and bible. the explanation of the verse: that is among the people of the books, torah and bible, are those who bear faith in Allah and attest to his tawHid and (attest) the (message) that has come to you, O muslims!'


    f) in fact tabari specifically says that najashi was a muslim:

    عن قتادة، فـي قوله: { وَإِنَّ مِنْ أَهْلِ ٱلْكِتَـٰبِ لَمَن يُؤْمِنُ بِٱللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِمْ } قال: نزلت فـي النـجاشي وأصحابه مـمن آمن بـالنبـي صلى الله عليه وسلم، واسم النـجاشي أصحمة.

    narrated from qatadah concerning the verse...and he said: it was revealed concerning najashi and his companions those who bore faith and believed in the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam; and the name of najashi (negus) is aS'Hamah.

    g) P2 quoted by KA is anyway a mursal/mu`uDal report about the asbabu'n nuzul of two verses; it is ONE among dozens of more stronger reports. then why should we rely on a weak report to prove the

    h) when there are strong mutawatir reports of najashi being a muslim, is it not a crime to accuse him of not being a muslim based on weak reports? no husn-zann here? no fearing the dangers of takfir here? sub'HanAllah.

    -----
    what follows next in KA's proposition is automatically invalid. ahl-e-kitab are believers only when they attest to tawHid and everything that is brought by RasulAllah sallAllahu `alayhi wa sallam - in short, muslims. but tahir loves long-winded words doesn't he: (he who makes you companions by granting you company).

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    with due respect to brother KS and emir, this is the problem that sunnis have on forums dealing with such issues. you should have forced the poster to clarify his stand - and if he is sincere, he won't mind.

    and i speak from experience.

    sunnis take things at face value and begin addressing it as if they are talking to someone like themselves. but most of the time, the others are shady and walk on the fence ready to jump on any side which is convenient.

    you spend hours and hours of research and translations and then the other party writes a few words: 'i never said that.' making you look silly and they escape at the same time. this is why you should force them in the open and make them to commit - and sincere people will not fear to commit.

    ---
    i do not accuse kA, but i don't like this anti-islamic method of citing a snippet to prove a point. knowledgeable people will raise a brow on such ignorance; but common people may be misled. particularly, after he has condescendingly dismissed scholarship from the subcontinent.

    i asked whether he has read the book himself as he claims, but he is yet to reply.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2012
  6. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    This is impossible. The 3rd category you have proposed is impossible.

    If there are Jews and Christians upon tawheed, but they reject RasulAllah alayhissalaam, then they are kufaar.

    Any one who rejects the prophet hood of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhiwasallam, or reject the Quran then they are kaafir.
     
  7. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    In one quotation it states regarding Najashi 'a'bdun habashiyun'. The other narration states 'laysa bi muslimin'.

    The question is, which of the two quotes do you give preference to?

    The defining question is, did not Najashi the Habashi accept RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhiwasallam as Messenger and affirm Islam?

    The answer is yes. And that is the background to this incident.
     
  8. The Emir

    The Emir Well-Known Member

    The translation isn't correct anyway. This is from Muhaddis-e-Azam Hind's translation of the Quran - the bold and italics are mine to highlight where others have erred:

    UNDOUBTEDLY MUSLIM PEOPLE AND JEWISH PEOPLE, AND CHRISTIAN PEOPLE AND SABI PEOPLE, WHO HAVE NOW GENUINELY BELIEVED IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY, AND PERFORMED DEEDS WORTHY OF DOING, THEN FOR THEM THERE IS REWARD NEAR THEIR LORD. AND NEITHER IS THERE ANY FEAR AND NOR ANY GRIEF
     
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    please do not digress. you posted something and i asked you questions about it. only after you answer those questions, we can proceed. of course, you may be a sincere person, but we have seen our share of such hit-and-duck people, so we are just making sure.

    ---
    only after you have answered those questions in post #3, we can discuss your new set of questions.

    ---
    i hope you understand.
     
  10. khadim.awliya

    khadim.awliya Banned

    the argument is: is it possible to have believers from Ahl al Kitab.

    Can Ahl al Kitab be classified into
    1) kafir
    2) mushrikeen
    3) believers ?? ( those christians and jews who don't do shirk )

    Any evidence to support # 3 ( Verses from Quran ) ? like the verse;
    Qur'an in English

    English Translation of Ayah/Verse 2:62 in different Editions

    [SIZE=-1] 1. Yusuf Ali (Amana Edition)
    Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.[/SIZE]
     
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    my questions to kA.

    did you read this yourself or did someone forwarded the link to you? if so, what is your point? what is it that you did not understand? it is not necessary for you to translate if you cannot, but at least where exactly is your confusion?

    this is the classic non-committal position assumed by those who fire from foliage. i am sure you know what the book is about - because you are 'reading' it. and i also assume that you understand what is written.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2012
  12. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    The above quote does not prove a thing for Tahir. It mentions the passing away of Najashi, and that Najashi was one of those from the People of the Book who will believe. There are people who have and will believe before the day of judgement. This will also happen when Sayyiduna Isa alayhissalam.
     
  13. khadim.awliya

    khadim.awliya Banned

    Don't take this as I am defending any one. Names really matter less to me. It is the principle.

    I was reading Imam Suyuti's book and came across this:

    قوله تعالى : { وإن من أهل الكتاب } الآية روى النسائي عن أنس لما جاء نعي النجاشي [ قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم : صلوا عليه قالوا : يا رسول الله نصلي على عبد حبشي ] فأنزل الله { وإن من أهل الكتاب لمن يؤمن بالله } وروى ابن جابر وفي المستدرك عن عبد الله بن الزبير قال : نزلت في النجاشي { وإن من أهل الكتاب لمن يؤمن بالله } الآية
    http://www.islamicbook.ws/qbook\alom/lbab-alnqwl-001.html

    وقال آخرون: نزلت هذه الآية بسبب موت النجاشي، وفي ذلك يروي الطبري عن قتادة أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: إن أخاً لكم قد مات -يعني النجاشي- فصلوا عليه، قالوا: نصلي على رجل ليس بمسلم! فنـزلت: {وإن من أهل الكتاب لمن يؤمن بالله} (آل عمران:199)، قالوا: فإنه كان لا يصلي إلى القبلة! فأنزل الله: {ولله المشرق والمغرب}، قال ابن كثير: وهذا غريب.





    AbdalQadir has done alot of research on this matter perhaps he can share with me, his understanding to the saying by some that there are believers amongst Ahl al Kitab and they use this verse. You can look up the different tafasirs.

    Since this issue has been researched and discussed alot on this forum under the topics related to Dr Taher al Qadri Hamza Yusuf & Interfaith scholars , what are the arguments for and against it.
     

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