Analysis of Mutazilite Arguments Surrounding ‘Divine Justice’ Through an Ash’arite Lens.

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Syed Ahmed Uwaisi, Sep 30, 2014.

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  1. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    I think for sure you have a much more scientific attitude to academia, its a lot more about presenting information as objectively as possible, and I think that has its place, but my method has been developed after observing many things, and basically I know through that nobody is objective, and that humans often deceive themselves into thinking that they are capable of scientific and broad thought, but at the end of the day, they are weak and limited beings and where they attempt to appear enlightened and sophisticated, they are only displaying two attitudes 1) obedience to allah or 2) disobedience.

    I could care less about academic method, western knowledge, sophisticated science, etc, all of these are meaningless to me, since i have been through academia and ive seen how artificial this whole charade is, my method is basically designed as a tool for dawa, and then i just go ahead and write whatever comes out in an effort to bring about elevation of the soul and abasement of the ego. its not even something i like to do or i think is necessary, it just helps to analyse the thought trends, come to a conclusion about them and then notice either a) ah yes, this was founded on taqwa or b) this was founded on ego. Humans are simple, and most of all, the unbelievers are extremely simple and shallow, but they pretend to be profound.

    At the end of the day, i consider the quran and sunna as the height of possible knowledge, and i want to have as many of the information paradigms of that source in my mind as possible, i relate everything back to its key concepts, like shirk, doomsday, heaven and hell, predestination, and most importantly, the plan of satan and the need to guard against worship of satan, i could care less about anyone elses thought except insofar as it affirms the quranic views or denies them, and in the case of the essay i posted, to me it was basically, "there is a tricky debate between asharites and mutazilites and it seems difficult for me to understand which one is more quranically sound", so i just laid out the facts, meditated on it, and the explanation came out, mutazilism edges towards ego and hubris, and asharism leans towards submission, and hey presto, i found my answer, that was the end of it, i wasnt thinking to be fancy or look academic, as i said, i do not consider western epistemology or academia as anything that is worth aspiring towards, i only care about re-expressing the quranic truths as much as possible because i dont want to insult myself into thinking another potential solution is possible.

    essentially the writing is not even necessary, since i know what i believe through basic islamic reflection, i do the whole soul vs ego check on myself thing and then, boom, i have a conclusion, its not really rocket science or anything fancy enough to be revered or commended, nor do i wish it to be. i dont even need to write an essay to find out about a thing, i just do the quranic reflection and im pretty certain about the reliability of my conclusion.

    at the end of my general search for knowledge i pretty much learned that humans do not really possess the capacity to contain information in their minds, they try to, but in the moment, everyone acts on his impulse, and nobody really calculates except for the one who follows islamic law and orders his activities into fard, wajib, sunna, mubah, makruh, etc, everyone else just goes with the ego. So at the end, the conclusion of knowledge and its search is that you know nothing, and that you rely on allah for guidance, you cant cheat the test at the end of it, is the general conclusion of all knowledge in this life, for me, and also for everyone else, people are just slow at getting to the conclusion that "allah is the knower" and we are only the recipients of limited and brief information.

    so why write the essay? basically its so that the conclusion about subjects that i have reached from just thinking about them with an islamic attitude can be explained to those who excessively use their minds rather than intuition and so that the conclusions of faith can be proven using the tools of reason. Wasnt that what the Asharites were doing in early history? They were proving true the conclusions of the Ashab al Hadith using the dialectic method of the Rationalists?

    So thats what is the general motivation, at the end, i could care less whether a person thinks that it is academic or not, or whether it measures up to the standards of western academia, since i do not respect any thought system unless it leans towards spirituality and submission to allah as opposed to the desires of the ego, i give no concern whether people think it is 'fancy' or 'academically sound', because i have seen these professors at work and the only criterion they use to judge whether something is academic or not is whether it affirms their own egoistic conclusions or not, they do not care about the references,

    which is why i get angry when people who are sunni students and whose role it is to explain the information of the quran and sunna in writing, forget to realise that they are an extremely small intellectual minority and that they should snap out of their decadent intellectual bubbles and start using their minds in a simple manner to explain the DARURIYAT AD DIN, because nobody else really cares

    another reason why i write is to eradicate hubris and procrastination, some people spend ten years over the study of one subject just to act smart and be intellectual, whereas they probably do not even operate in that sphere nor are they obligated to act within it, its just futile academic activity, which has no benefit to anyone. People like Ala Hazrat or Said Nursi wrote things that had meaning and served the needs of people and brought their egoes under submission to Allah.

    Academic writing is designed simply to boost an individuals' perception that he is a smartass and has greater knowledge than that which is in the quran and sunna, so when i write an essay, its basically using intellectualism to cut short intellectualism

    its a denunciatory message that "all you people who dont really believe in worship of allah, i have surpassed your conclusions and cut short your efforts to procrastinate, now you have no choice but to abandon your intellectual wayfaring and get down on the musalla like everyone else who understands truth"

    this is probably why my definition of academic differs from yours, i have eradicated all potential pathways to acceptance of wayward conclusions just because it was something i felt was 'enlightened' or 'illuminating' at the time, and to me, enlightement is to realise you know nothing and allah is the real knower.

    Also, if a believer only supports his own conclusions and that of islam, i do not give myself the luxury of time on this earth to consider that biased or 'prejudiced' as you said, this life is short and hypcrites and falsehood is large, so why should a believer to whom allah has communicated the truth waste his time in being 'subjective' or 'academic', he should simply say what allah inspires him to say and what is in accord with the transmitted proofs and be done with it, and go tend to other duties.
     
  2. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    Clearly your sense of academic differs from mine. I think, you lack objectivity when dealing with the 'other'. However, perhaps, we are condemned to subjectivism. Nietzsche pointed out in his 'Beyond Good and Evil' that most people end up justifying 'a desire of the heart that has been filtered and made abstract'. In other words, the scholars give complicated analyses which appear to involve impersonal logical reasoning but which always end up demonstrating that their prejudices were correct. Unfortunately, none escape from the shackles of subjectivity. We are all victims :)
     
  3. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    No no no, you see this is where I differ. For me, academic simply means that my communication style is unemotional and simply an expression of something I observe 'out there', its a common misconception that to be academic requires me to appear robotic and go back and forth between 'their opinion' and 'my opinion', since this is not what academicians do, all of their writing, either pro-Islamic views or anti-Islamic views or somewhere in the middle, is just their natural way of expressing one aspect of a larger whole, and thus all of their contributions simply add to the richness of the intellectual life.

    A writing does not need to be written because a) deviants are naughty and we want to show how mad we are or b) we want to look fancy and academic. Its beyond both of these two, and if you just take a brief look at most academics in modern Islamic studies, they are pretty down to earth people just expressing what they gain from reading and observation of primary and secondary material, nobody really debates to 'prove a point' but just simply to enrich the discourse.

    My essay was something i did as an assignment a while back, and to me, it represents a new genre of literature, which is original writing, in the sense that it is purely done for creativity and artistic expression of 'truth' or 'reality' or whatever, done from within a Sunni Islamic thought paradigm, I do not prove Sunnism as 'correct' because 'I am bound to do so', it just turns out that when i write on a subject, the points that 'Sunnism' would 'argue in favour of' naturally come to the fore.

    Equally, nobody has to read it and accept it there and then, you can just save it for later as part of building a knowledge database, and refer to it now and again as part of your own search for knowledge, this is just the culture of academia, its not really as rigid and purposeful as some people would like to have it, its just another art form.
     
  4. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    Indeed, it is the content that seems one sided. If you want academic 'analysis' of the mutazili school then the 'correct' method would be to cite directly their point of view and only then you would be academically judicious. However, if it is just some kind of opinion that you want to get off your chest then feel free, no one would say anything about that as it is what everyone is doing.
     
  5. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    Feel free to bring up any elements in my writing that you find incorrect"

    Critique in content is more important to me, not formatting or citations.

    Some of you here are more SUnni than others, how do I know that what I have written is one hundred percent correct in its meaning?
    Thats what I wanted feedback on.
     
  6. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    I was merely complying to your request, dear brother Uwaisi!
     
  7. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    Its not like there are ten million men doing this type of work, fix your attitude and become more cooperative, you make no allies with blonde criticism.
     
  8. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    Your critique is baseless, just appreciate whats good and move on already.

    Are you threatened or something?
     
  9. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    and then you say this:
    on your methods you say:
     
  10. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    Unless of course you think I need excessive criticism, in which case: critique away! No problems either way brazer.
     
  11. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    If you wannabe constructive, refrain from using derogatory remarks such as 'wannabe' essay.

    This is a real essay, I scored a 75 on it, shukran lillah.

    If you give advice to people, its necessary to make it clear that you are not doing so just to vent your inner frustration at your own situation.

    If you really want to talk about how to improve the essay, then lets do that, im all ears.

    1) I dont think that you fully appreciated the particular perspective from which I approached this essay.

    Critique is not valid without prior acceptance and acknowledgement of merit, you dont just come out and say, "yeah that was bollocks mate you should go kill youself." Understand?

    2) I have a writing style when it comes to Heresiography: I believe it is more conducive to the aims of Sunni writings, based on the premise that the Sunni conclusion is correct, to use the Sunni writers' citations of 'deviant' positions, rather than going into those sources directly? Rather than being impartial, since nobody EVER writes impartially, on a subject where truth is so important as Theology, its better to go in with a more certain method, e.g. using the pre written citations of deviant positions.

    For example, on the statements of Shiites, I have nothing more than the following information:

    Some of their main beliefs include:

    1. The apostasy of the entire Islamic nation:

    This is by implication of the verdict that whoever disbelievers in the ‘Imamate’ of one of the Imams is a disbeliever, but most people accept the Imams as righteous leaders in knowledge, but simply reject the Shiites very specific cult attitudes towards them.

    Who disbelieves in Imamate is kaafir. "The consensus of all Twelver Shia is that whoever denies the Imamah of any Imam, and denies the allegiance imposed by Allah Ta'ala for him (the Imam), then he's a Kafir deviant, deserving eternal Hell." (Bihaar al-Anwaar: Muhammad Baqir al-Majlisi, vol.23, p.390, from Aqeedat al-Imamah: Dr. Ali As-Saloos, p.29)".

    Understanding Shiism as just another cult makes the role of the Imam easy to understand. Cults consider themselves as deserving of salvation by default and by merit of the supernatural qualities of their Imam, this is a natural human psychological response to fear or inner weakness. The same thing happened famously with Prophet Jesus, the cult was named Christianity. Cults take away the need for all the moral striving and genuine sincerity needed by members of orthodoxy, deification of their leaders allows them to do this. This is why the divinity of the Imamate is so important in Shiism.

    By implication of this fundamental tenet of Shiite belief recorded by one of their foremost authorities, Mulla Baqir Majlisi, the majority of Shiites are disbelievers according to the verdicts of the classical Sunni authorities, unless they of course unanimously reject this fundamental tenet of Shiite dogma as well as the veracity of the scholar who recorded it.

    It is hardly likely that such a rejection would take place since the belief in Imamate is the central pillar of the Shiite community, without which the structure of their cult would collapse.

    2. Superiority of Imams to Prophets:

    The Sunni authorities were aware of the beliefs of many of the Shiites that their Imams were superior to the Prophets. This was highlighted as an aspect of cult philosophy, and thus the verdict was given, on pg. 365 of ash shifa:

    “We surely declare those extremist rawafid as disbelievers who say that Imams are superior to Prophets”.

    3. Denial of matters known as Necessities of Faith:

    The belief of the apostasy and illegitimate leadership of the early caliphs was similarly a key aspect of Shiite thought, and so Sunni heresiographers were able to highlight key statements of dogma by Shiite thinkers as integral to the structure of the cult.

    One of these was related to Caliph Abu Bakr, in relation to 1) The legitimacy of his leadership and 2) The truth of his association with the Prophet. Many Shiites both negate the legitimacy of Abu Bakr’s reign as caliph, and also the sincerity of his alliance with the final Messenger. This is the basis of the Shiite propaganda used to substantiate the narrative that Imamate belongs to the Alid Household, and that salvation and redemption can come from satanic rituals, such as cutting oneself and ones family during Muharram, known as matam, or cursing the companions of the Prophet, including the early caliphs.

    More verdicts recorded in radd ur rifda by Imam Ahmed Rida Khan describe the jurists’ position on this group:

    From durr al mukhtar, p.64: “If someone denies any of the necessities of the religion, then he is a disbeliever. For instance, to say that Almighty Allah is like a physical body, or to refuse the companionship of Hadrat Siddiq”.

    It is stated in Tahtawi’s commentary of Durr al Mukhtar, vol.1. p.244, “similarly, the refusal of his caliphate is also disbelief”.

    It is stated in fath ul qadir, the commentary of al Hidaya, published in Egypt, vol.1. p.248, “Amongst the rawafid, if there is someone who says that Hadrat Ali is superior to the three caliphs, you can tell he is a cultist. And if he refuses the Caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr as Siddiq and Hadrat Umar, then he is a straight disbeliever.”

    In al Wajiz of Imam al Kardari, vol.3. pg. 318, “the refuter of the caliphate of Hadrat Abu Bakr is a disbeliever. This is the correct verdict. And the refuter of the caliphate of Hadrat Umar Faruq is also a disbeliever. This is the most correct judgement.”

    From the commentary of an Niqayah, there is a citation from Fatawa Zaheeriyah: “the refuter of the Imamate of Abu Bakr is a disbeliever, according to some theologians he is only a deviant. The correct verdict is that he is a disbeliever. Similarly, according to the most correct verdict, the refuter of the caliphate of Umar is also a disbeliever.”

    4. Morally Weak and Satanic practices: Swearing at the early caliphs

    It is known from the practice and books of the Shiites to this day, that they continue the practice of cursing the early caliphs. This is considered as disbelief, the one who practices it is thus a disbeliever.

    It is stated in Uqud ad Durruyyah, pg.92-93: “the rawafid are disbelievers on several accounts. One of them is the refusal of the caliphate of the Shaykhayn (the Two Elders). Whoever is attributed to any of the above mentioned dogmatic tenets is a disbeliever.”


    5. Apostatisation of Leading Other Companions:

    From fatawa bazzaziyya: “to declare that all rawafid, nawasib, and khawarij are disbelievers is obligatory because they all declare Uthman, Talha, Zubayr and Aisha as disbelievers.”

    6. Incomplete Quran:

    In the commentary of musallam ath thubut, p.617: “I have seen in majma ul bayan, a Shia tafsir, that some of them believed that the Quran was more than that which is in the present Quran. Whoever utters this statement is a disbeliever because of his refusal of the fundamentals of religion.”

    All of the above verdicts were cited by Ahmed Rida Khan in his detailed epistle, ‘radd ur rifda’ (Rejection of the Rejectors).

    Mufti Ebu’s Suud in his Fatawa and Allama Muhammad Aminuddin Shami in his Tanqih ul Hamidiyya, pg.93 state: “the scholars of all ages and times have agreed unanimously on this that one who doubts the disbelief of these rawafid is himself a disbeliever.”


    All this information on their positions, is from Ahmed Rida Khan's Radd ur Rifda.

    What I gain from doing it like this is that instead of going directly into their own sources and perhaps not noticing these crucial aspects, I go to our sources, because of the fact that I assume that established scholarship are the owners of the correct position.

    I did the same thing in that essay up there, I used a translation of al Baghdadi's Farq Baynal Firaq' and cited directly his own observations of Mutazilites.

    Another benefit, that I found when reading that, was that he mentioned that the Ismaili sect, were a worse danger to Muslims than the Antichrist, what I gained from reading that is a particular psychological perspective on the Ismaili faith coming from the mind of a person who I presume is 'living orthodoxy' in his life, and so his personal observation on Ismaili beliefs and their apparent evil is more valuable than me myself going on to read 'Ikhwan as Safa', 'The Epistles of the Brethren of Sincerity', the main source for Ismaili philosophy, which I might perhaps like if I read it myself, and thus I would not be able to perceive what is wrong in there, leading to syncretism and blurry vision.

    Sorry that my explanation was long, im not so great at expressing myself succinctly enough, so bear with it, other than that, I hope this helps to explain my methodology, and try to refrain from being excesively criticial, ok brother? :)
     
    abu nibras likes this.
  12. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    :) I think changing the goalpost wont do. Here is the title of your wannabe-essay: Analysis of Mutazilite Arguments Surrounding „Divine Justice‟ Through an Ash‟arite Lens. So it is an analysis of the idea of mutazlili-adl from an asharite perspective. And if you want to explore the psychological-reasons of asharite critique then you can start from a psychological reason: abu Ali al-jubai was the step father of abu al-hasan al-ashari.
     
  13. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    Brother Nawazuddin, it would have been easy for me to cite a Mutazilite source, such as Usul al Khamsa, but the aim of this particular essay was to understand the psychological reasons why they were objected to by their opponents, which requires citing Asharite heresiographical sources. This is not considered a breach of academic objectivity, I know about and have been through Islamic Studies on an academic level, so I know what academia is about.

    The heading you need to read is:

    Conclusive Views of the Mutazilites in Context of Asharite Criticism:

    The key word is context.

    It highlights what aspects of Mutazilite theology are found irritable by others.

    Say something positive.
     
  14. Nawazuddin

    Nawazuddin Veteran

    In the interest of academic objectivity, you can start by directly quoting mutazilite sources for their position...
     
  15. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    Feel free to bring up any elements in my writing that you find incorrect and I will definitely use it as a way to up my game- God-willing.
     
  16. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    Yeah sorry bro, ive had negative past experience is all, i definitely respect you and Abu Hasan and other people like that.
     
  17. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    First of all why do you think that you will be treated badly? Are you trying or planning to provoke abu Hasan, or do you have a guilt in your heart and fear that sooner or later you will be caught. If it is none of these then relax and post good stuff and remain within forum's defined bounds. We will appreciate if you can benefit sunnis through this forum rather than aiming at sidi abu Hasan.
     
  18. Lonely_Mountain

    Lonely_Mountain Active Member

    Salam Syed Ahmed Saab,
    I don't know if you have had some sort of bad childhood experience but you really got to take it easy, this is a good forum for Sunni students of knowledge, we appreciate your work just as much as you would of ours, dont expect backlash so quickly, chill out and let's not make each other Qiblas,

    I hope you have a nice day, take it easy alright
     
  19. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    I will understand completely. :)
     
  20. Syed Ahmed Uwaisi

    Syed Ahmed Uwaisi Active Member

    Of course, if you find my attitude insulting to yourself, delete me off the forum then.
     

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