Are the killers of Mawla Ali and Imam Husayn kafirs?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by FaqirHaider, Sep 2, 2020.

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  1. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

  2. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

  3. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    Ironically in Shia narrations we find Sayyidutuna Zainab and Sayyiduna Zain ul Abideen (May Allah be Pleased with them both) lambasted the people of Kufa for their betrayal and treachery and told them that they will be held accountable for their actions, but they didn't go so far as to do takfeer , and left the affair of these wretched people to Allah and the Prophet on the Day of Judgment .

    ونظرت إلى زينب بنت علي عليه‌ السلام يومئذ فلم أر خفرةً ـ والله ـ أنطق منها (۲) ، كأنّها تفرغ عن لسان أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب (۳) ، وقد أومأت إلى الناس أن اسكتوا.

    فارتدّت الأنفاس ، وسكنت الأجراس ، ثمّ قالت :

    « الحمد لله والصلاة على أبي : محمّد وآله الطيّبين الأخيار.

    أمّا بعد :


    يا أهل الكوفة ، يا أهل الختل والغدر !!

    أتبكون ؟ فلا رقأت الدمعة ، ولا هدأت الرنة.

    إنّما مثلكم كمثل التي نقضت غزلها من بعد قوة أنكاثاً ، تتّخذون أيمانكم دخلاً بينكم.

    ألا وهل فيكم إلا الصلف النطف ؟ والصدر الشنف ؟ وملق الإماء ؟ وغمز الأعداء ؟

    أو كمرعى على دمنة ؟ أو كفضة على ملحودة ؟

    ألا ساء ما قدمت لكم أنفسكم أن سخط الله عليكم وفي العذاب أنتم خالدون.

    أتبكون ؟ وتنتحبون ؟

    إي والله ، فابكوا كثيراً واضحكوا قليلاً.

    فلقد ذهبتم بعارها وشنارها ، ولن ترحضوها بغسل بعدها أبداً.

    وأنى ترحضون قتل سليل خاتم النبوّة ؟ ومعدن الرسالة ، وسيّد شباب أهل الجنّة ، وملاذ خيرتكم ، ومفزع نازلتكم ، ومنار حجّتكم ، ومدرة سنّتكم ؟؟

    ألا ساء ما تزرون ، وبعداً لكم وسحقاً ، فلقد خاب السعي ، وتبت الأيدي ، وخسرت الصفقة ، وبؤتم بغضب من الله ، وضربت عليكم الذلّة والمسكنة.

    وَيلكم يا أهل الكوفة !

    أتدرون أيّ كبدٍ لرسول الله فَرَيتُم ؟!

    وأيّ كريمةٍ له أبرزتم ؟!

    وأيّ دم له سفكتم ؟!

    وأيّ حرمةٍ له هتكتم ؟!

    لقد جئتم بها صَلعاء عَنقاء سَوداء فَقماء ، خَرقاء شَوهاء ، كطِلاع الأرض وملء السماء.

    أفعجبتم أن مطرت السماء دماً ، ولعذاب الآخرة أخزى ، وأنتم لا تُنصَرون.

    فلا يَستَخفّنكم المُهَل ، فإنّه لا يَحفِزُه البِدار ، ولا يَخافُ فَوتَ الثار ، وإنّ ربّكم لبالمرصاد
    (٤)

    "O people of Kufah! O you deceivers! O you who break your pledges and retreated back! You traitors! May your cries never end and your tears never diminish. You are like the woman who painstakingly and with great labor twines a strong rope, and then herself unwinds it, thereby wasting her effort and energy. Your false pledges contain no element of truth and sincerity. Your tactic has become flattering the maids and nodding your heads in agreement to the enemies.

    Beware, for you have sponsored a very wrongful act for which Allah is totally displeased with you. Without doubt, His wrath shall soon descend upon you.

    Are you now crying? Yes, by Allah you must weep because you deserve the tears. Cry immensely and laugh less, for you are contaminated with such shame and disgrace, that you will never be able to wash it off.

    How could you exonerate yourself from crime of slaying the son of the Last Prophet Muhammad (saw)?
    Was he not the master of the youths in Heaven? Was he not the one who you would go to him whenever you had tribal fights and disagreements? Was he not your best choice to solve your own problems and worries?

    What bad have you brought upon yourselves, and what heavy burden are you carrying: annihilation, downfall! Efforts were lost, and hands ceased from work causing for business and capital to be lost. You placed yourself in the anger of Allah and you manifested yourselves in greed and begging.

    O the people of Kufah! Woe be upon you! Do you know which part of Prophet ﷺ that you have cut? And which vow you have broken? And whose blood you have shed? And which respected family you have brought to the public as captives? And whose sanctity you have violated? You have done that, which could tear down the skies, open the earth, and make the mountains vanish. As far as the earth goes and as deep as the skies go, your obvious deed has no like, no similarity and no decency. Indeed you have done the ugliest, the most grievous and gruesome deed. Will you be surprised if the sky rains blood? Remember! The punishment of the Day of Judgment which will be much more severe and much harsher! That is because no one has the power of Allah.


    ثمّ ، أن زين العابدين عليه السلام أومأ إلى الناس أن اسكتوا ، فسكتوا ، فقام (۱) قائماً ، فحمد الله وأثنى عليه وذكر النبي بما هو أهله فصلّى عليه ، ثمّ قال :

    « أيّها الناس من عرفني فقد عرفني ، ومن لم يعرفني فأنا أعرفه بنفسي : أنا علي بن الحسين بن علي بن أبي طالب ، أنا ابن المذبوح بشطّ الفرات من غير ذحل ولا ترات (۲) ، أنا ابن من انتهك حريمه وسلب نعيمه وانتهب ماله وسبي عياله ، أنا ابن من قتل صبراً وكفى بذلك فخراً.

    أيّها الناس ، ناشدتكم الله هل تعلمون أنّكم كتبتم إلى أبي وخدعتموه وأعطيتموه من أنفسكم العهد والميثاق والبيعة وقاتلتموه وخذلتموه ؟! فتبّاً لما قدمتم لأنفسكم وسوءاً (۳) لرأيكم ، بأيّة عين تنظرون إلى رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله اذ يقول لكم : قتلتم عترتي وانتهكتم حرمتي فلستم من أمّتي ؟! ».


    قال الراوي (٤) : فارتفعت أصوات الناس من كلّ ناحية ، ويقول بعضهم لبعض : هلكتم وما تعلمون.


    فقال : « رحم الله امرءاً قبل نصيحتي وحفظ وصيّتي في الله وفي رسوله وأهل بيته ، فان لنا في رسول الله أسوة حسنة ».

    فقالوا بأجمعهم : نحن كلّنا يابن رسول الله سامعون مطيعون حافظون لذمامك غير زاهدين فيك ولا راغبين عنك ، فأمرنا بأمرك يرحمك الله ، فإنّا حرب لحربك وسلم لسلمك ، لنأخذن يزيد ونبرأ ممّن ظلمك وظلمنا.


    فقال عليه السلام : « هيهات هيهات ، أيّها الغدرة المكرة ، حيل بينكم وبين شهوات أنفسكم ، أتريدون أن تأتوا إليّ كما أتيتم إلى أبي من قبل ؟! كلّا وربّ الراقصات ، فان الجرح لما يندمل ، قتل أبي صلوات الله عليه بالأمس وأهل بيته معه ، ولم ينسني ثكل رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وثكل أبي وبني أبي ، ووجده بين لهواتي (٥) ، ومرارته بين حناجري وحلقي ، وغصصه تجري في فراش صدري.


    “O men, whoever recognizes me knows me, and whoever does not, let me tell him that I am Ali ibn al Hussain ibn Ali . I am the son of the man whose sanctity has been violated, whose wealth has been plundered, and whose children have been seized. I am the son of the one who has been slaughtered by the Euphrates neither on blood revenge nor on account of inheritance. I am the son of the one who was killed in the worst manner. This is sufficient honor for me.

    “O men, I plead to you in the Name of Allah: Do you not know that you wrote to my father then deceived him? Did you not grant him your covenant, your promise, and your allegiance, then you fought him? May you be ruined for what you have committed against your own souls, and out of your corrupt views! Through what eyes will you look at the Prophet ﷺ when he says to you: ‘You killed my progeny, violated my sanctity, so you do not belong to my community’.”

    Those slaves who blackened the face of history wept loudly and lamented, and they said to each other: “You have perished, yet you are not aware of it.”

    The Imam continued his speech, saying:

    “May Allah have mercy on anyone who acts upon my advice, who safeguards my legacy with regard to Allah, His Apostle, and his Household, for we have in RasoolAllah ﷺ a good example of conduct to emulate.”

    So they all said with one tongue: “We, son of RasoolAllah ﷺ , listen and obey, and we shall safeguard your trust. We shall not turn away from you, nor shall we disobey you; so, order us, may Allah have mercy on you, for we shall fight when you fight, and we shall make peace when you do so; we dissociate ourselves from whoever oppressed you and dealt unjustly with you.”

    In response to this false obedience, the Imam said:

    “Far, far away it is from you to do so, O people of treachery and conniving! You are separated from what you desire. Do you want to come to me as you did to my father? No, by the Lord of those angels that ascend and descend, the wound is not yet healed. My father was killed only yesterday, and so were his Household, and the loss inflicted upon RasoolAllah ﷺ , upon my father, and upon my family is yet to be forgotten. Its pain, by Allah, is between both of these sides and its bitterness is sticks in my throat. Its choke is resting in my very chest.”
     
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  4. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    but is it taqleed or not? hazarvi sahab said he doesn't do taqleed in aqidah, so why do you do? besides sharif al haq amjadi rahimahullah quotes ibn hajr haythami, he was not an indian alim.

    also, your claim being in the camp of Sayiduna Imam Husayn raDiyAllahu a'nhu might be true, but like a covert enemy who betrays.
     
    Unbeknown likes this.
  5. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    i am not an alim. if you can follow the opinion of the indian scholar allamah amjadi you posted, i can choose to follow the opinion of hazarvi sahib.

    this is my aqeedah:
    Bedam Yehi To Paanch Hain Maqsood e Kainaat main
    Khair ul Nisa , Hussain, Hassan, Mustafa, Ali

    bedam warsi was a great sunni wali too. not a shia.
     
  6. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    yes, in the camp of imam hussain a.s. and allama hazarvi rahmatullah alayhi and other real hussaini sunnis not umawi sunnis!
     
  7. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    this clearly shows from which camp you belong to.
     
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    is this an aqidah usul, who stated it? in which book? completely loose talk, molana sahab himself is saying that this is his own fatwa, i.e. he doesn't have any proof from the aqidah books or quotes of the elder scholars. saying that "I don't do taqilid of anyone in aqidah" was fine as long he had proved from the sources that are qatai'y us suboot and qatai'y ud dalalah that the killers of imam Husayn raDiyAllahu anhu murdered him because he was the grandson of RasulAllah sallallahu alaihi wa alihi wassalam, weak ahadith cannot be accepted to do takfir. taqleed is not jaiz in aqidah, but it also does not mean that one can reject the aqaid of the sawad e azam because it is like ijma' and ijma' is itself daleel, so following sawad e azam is not taqleed. i bothered to listen to him from 1:32 to 1:36 but did not get any reference that can be presented as proof for takfir.

    you are deliberately mixing the issue, we ahlunnnah wal jama'ah do not say that the killers of Imam Husayn radiyAllahu a'nhu would have not committed kufr, we say that for doing takfir we do not have definite proofs, so we hold from takfir while considering them the worst khubasa on earth.

    a question for you, if someone kills a sayed to gain political power would he become a kafir or not?

    edited: actually there is another question i forgot
    is taking the opinion/fatwa of molana abdul ghafur not taqleed? if not then why is it taqleed if we take it from the elder scholars?
     
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  9. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned



    the great scholar hazrat abdul ghafoor hazarvi sahib (ra) says
    'if yazid is a momin then there is no kafir in the world!' and answers the arguments of this maulvi's fatwa which noori posted from 1hr 32 minutes onwards.

    this is my last post on the topic. i hold the same view as hazarvi saab and those like him. Ya Sayyid al Shuhada Ya Hussain ibn Ali!
     
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Nice. Textual references are good starting points for meaningful discussions. Be sure to keep up with this habit.
     
    Unbeknown likes this.
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    one can only feel pity for someone whose knowledge is limited to sharh al-aqa'id, which is anyway a beginner's book, and hence deemed fit for madrasa texts. unfortunately many of them do not even read this.

    firstly even if taftazani said so, it is not nass qaT'yi. school boys (or those who stay at that level even after being old men like PAQS) do not see beyond sharh al-aqa'id, nor do they know that taftazani was criticised for his opinion.

    secondly, where did he say "send laanat by name on shimr, umar ibn sa'ad...etc."? looks like you have not even read this beginner's book properly.
     
    Noori and Unbeknown like this.
  12. AbuSulayman

    AbuSulayman Banned

    naSibi logic. peet the dhandora all day about following traditional scholars of ahle sunnat in aqida when it suits you but when it comes to the murderers of imam hussain you forget to follow the aqida book taught in all sunni madrassahs which is taftazani's sharh al aqaid just out of bughz of Ali and aulad e Ali.

    if anyone doesn't know, Taftazani in his Sharh al Aqaid says that we consider yazid a kafir, the murderers of hussain kafirs and consider it permissible to send laanat by name on shimr, umar ibn saad and all their allies, supporters etc.
     
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    and we refuted years ago. i have removed those posts as i converted them into a PDF after a few tweaks, corrections and some useful additions, footnotes and references. it is being reviewed and will be released shortly. this is a defence of imam al-ghazali against the vile accusation of being a closet nasibi made by the tafzili pir abdul qadir shah, who used to be refuted by irfan shah until recently.

    a few excerpts:







    yaz2.png

    =====

    yaz3.png

    ====

    yaz4.png


    =====

    yaz5.png


    =======


    yaz1.png
     
  14. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Veteran

    PAQ of Walthamstow did that already those years ago!
     
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    They (the murderers) will also be considered kafir if they believe that murder is permissible.
     
  16. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    They did that years ago.
     
  17. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    Next up these "Tafzilis" will put a fatwa of "nasibiyyat" on Imam Ghazali for his stance against cursing( sending La'nat upon) the criminals of Kerbala without definitive proof.
     
  18. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    probably you did not bother to read the fatwa, it clearly rejects your accusation of defending the killers of Imam Husayn raDiyAllahu a'nhu, and states the reason, quoting ibn Hajr al Haythami, why it does not constitute kufr, read again.

    waqar786 was right, people are just so ambitious to label anything as nasbiyat in the name of fake love for the ahl al bayt raDiyAllahu a'nhum
     
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    'defending' the murderers is your fanciful imagination.

    preventing muslims from doing takfir when it cannot be justified according to principles of shariah is more like it.
    in other words, adhering to the shariah mutahharah for the preservation of which imam Husayn gave his blessed life.

    empty sloganeering and chest beating will not make you a Husayni. holding fast to the path of ahl al-sunnah will, in-sha'Allah.

    ---
    the shariah forbades us to assign people in jannat or jahannam, except where it is permitted.

    can a person become a kafir by murdering a muslim? according to the khawarij, committing murder being a kabirah renders a person kafir. so if anyone considers the murderers of imam Husayn to be kafir merely because they murdered him, it is not consistent with the fatawa of ahl al-sunnah, because according to our doctrine, committing the vilest of sin does not render a person kafir.

    can one utter la'anat? this is also a matter of ghayb which is known only to Allah and by His informing, the prophet alayhis salatu wa's salaam.

    sayyiduna Hamzah raDiyAllahu anhu is greater than imam Husayn, both as a saHabi and in relation to the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. the person who killed him was forgiven by RasulAllah SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, and he was not deprived from tawbah.

    ----
    so the ahl al-sunnah rightly - and consistently - hold that those who murdered imam Husayn were vile creatures. they deserve to be punished in Hell. it is most likely that they did not repent, and hence will go to Hell. BUT - we do not know the case for certain.

    we do not worship imam Husayn; we worship Allah ta'ala and ِAllah ta'ala does what He wills. insisting on something in His Dominion without knowledge is audacity. this is why we keep quiet.

    surah baqarah, 2:284
    s2v284.png


    surah aal-imran, 3:129
    s3v129.png


    surah nisa'a 4:148
    s4v48.png

    this should not be construed as 'defending' qatilan-e-Husayn - may Allah give them their just recompense. it is merely adab in the Presence of the Creator of Husayn, fearing that we should not needlessly put ourselves in a situation. our love of imam Husayn does not require us to curse his killers - especially when we do not have definite knowledge that they indeed died without repentance or that Allah will certainly not forgive them. who gave you this information that Allah will never forgive them?

    s17v36.png



    emotional ranting and chest-beating is not proof. i am not saying they WILL be forgiven, i am only saying that they 'could' be - murder of imam Husayn is a kabirah and not kufr. and it is Allah ta'ala who punishes or forgives. the most we can say is, they deserve to be punished: 'mustaHaqq e naar'. Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
  20. YaMustafa

    YaMustafa Well-Known Member

    The act of Killing a Prophet is kufr.
    According to Shi’a Imam Hussain holds a status higher than the Prophets (Except Sayyiduna Muhammad) so it would be an act of kufr according to the shi’a.

    According to Sunni’s Imam Hussain is a sahabi and from ahl e bayt and does not hold a status greater than prophets.
     

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