Arranged Marriages

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Ghulam, Sep 7, 2014.

Draft saved Draft deleted
  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    their choice of color code is interesting - the worst parts are greenest and then the least bad are beyond red - as if to say - in these areas immorality has not spread as much as they would like it to - so prioritize these for future campaigns ...
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator


    Unbeknown likes this.
  3. Ghulam

    Ghulam Veteran

  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    this is from eurostat databases-

    see page 2 of pdf. in 2008, 35.1% of all european births were out of marriage. also notice that marriage follows a downward trend now.

    see pages 24 and 25 of file. it says:


    apparently the catholic majority south america is the worst, with most or some of the largest nations having 60-70% of live births outside of marriage.


    according to this article published in 2013, 47.5% of the births in 2012-2013 were out of marriage and by 2016, the majority of children born in the uk will be out of wedlock if the trend continues!
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    who doesn't acknowledge the genius of shakespeare? his insight into human nature and philosophy is far more analysed and written about than iqbal. but does any church consider him as a religious reformer?

    why is this foolhardiness on the part of muslims?
    Ghulam Ali, Aqdas and Unbeknown like this.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    serious students of islamic studies are even more amused, nay dismayed at the delusion that iqbal himself or his admirers have about him as a "religious scholar".

    you talk as if every muslim starts his day with a pranam to iqbal, and swears by his name (al-iyadhu billah); iqbal studies, as a branch of literature may continue - neither i, nor do i think anybody can disagree with the fact that he was among the top poets in urdu; his command of farsi and urdu, and the elegance with which he employs them to convey his ideas is a joy to behold. i still read and enjoy iqbal's works and consider them as literary masterpieces. additionally, that he was an original thinker and as he has himself said: 'used poetry as a vehicle to convey his thoughts'. my objection is that he should have stayed within those boundaries; a capable and successful surgeon should not take to designing aeroplanes overnight without any training or study.

    just because they are great poets, ma'arri is not deemed an authority on fiqh, nor mutanabbi considered a mujaddid.

    yes, but your blind imitation and intellectual handicap is sorely visible. you are incapable (or gutless) to criticise a man's obvious mistakes, because you do not have the courage to stand against popular opinion. and iqbal lamented this 'taqlid' in his works! the irony!

    people consider it fashionable to criticise taqlid of ayimmah, who were pious, and intellectual giants; but are pusillanimous to doff the taqlid of contemporary celebrities.

    in the same vein i can say that a book on kalam like mawaqif or Tawaliy was beyond the reach of iqbal himself and i daresay, almost every one of iqbal-studies experts.

    yeah, whatever. but do consult a dictionary.
    Aqdas likes this.
  7. Maybe I know Farsi you know? ;) that's certainly possible. Secondly, saying I agree with Iqbal - whom most Pakistani "Barelvi" ulama and mashaikh consider a wali--on the issue of reforming Islam does not make me his muqallid. He himself wrote, "tabloid ki rawish se tau behtar hai Khud-kushi."
    Yet he was a great lover of the Prophet (saw) and an intellectual giant and it amuses me to see you fellows dismiss him so haughtily! I look forward to seeing Abu Hasan's refutation of Iqbal (ra). No doubt, his acolytes will declare it a masterpiece whilst the rest of the world carries on.

    Apart from AH who is well read I wonder how much of Iqbal's corpus the rest of you've read. The good news is that he is probably the most studied Muslim of the past century in terms of academic research papers written on him by reputable academics both in the East and the West and so even in English with a but of effort you can get to know him well. His Work Javidnama alone puts him at a level well beyond the reaches - intellectually speaking -- of most ulema.

    Anyway it's good to have your cosy cultish views challenged sometimes even though it leads to ad hominem attacks and thinly veiled accusations of heresy. I enjoy interacting with you guys.
  8. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    It's not far off the mark. Every 4 in 10 is born out of wedlock in USA and every 1 in 2 in France. I have government published stats on these (so these are as reliable as they can get). So if you throw a stone randomly in a crowd of 3-4 Europeans/Americans, there's a good chance that it will land on a "bastard" (as illegitimate children are known in any civilised society).

    Few years back, I quoted these stats to a christian colleague who was "curious" about the practice of muta and he didn't know where to hide or run.
  9. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    Iqbal was not more learned than his contemporary U'lama in the sciences of Islam. There were amazing scholars who lived at the same time as him.

    I wonder how you read and appreciated his original Farsi works? Unless you read translations which is not the same thing.

    Now, how can a person believe in both reform and then become a muqallid of someone? Strange contradiction.
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    not far-fetched, but assuming that is verified, it explains the hadith of last days:

    "illegitimate children will be plenty"

    this case is not just with adultery, but in many cases nowadays, people become murtadd without even knowing they have; like uttering blasphemies and joking about religion - after such riddah, unless a re-marriage takes place after renewal of faith, children born are deemed as 'born out of wedlock'.

    similarly is the case with couples who continue to cohabit after three-divorce in one sitting and follow the salafi fatwa that they can continue without Halalah.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Aqdas likes this.
  11. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    I am no one I guess... :rolleyes:
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    iqbal did not have sufficient knowledge of religion to make such a claim. by his own admission, he hadn't read the corpus of islamic knowledge as much as he should have; yet he made that foolish statement; and it is evident from his cheesy proposals in what is supposed to be his masterpiece: "reformation of islamic thought".

    iqbal, however was very intelligent, very well-read, had a very good understanding of philosophical connotations in islamic creed (kalam) BUT it doesn't appear that he had read kalam works of the ancients, or was proficient in islamic sciences.

    yet, he had a genuine feeling for ummah and its state (unlike hypocrites in our time - who think that aping the west is best for the ummah), and in his own way, a genuine love for the Master sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    i do not dispute that he was a first rate poet in both style and substance.

    this was gleaned from works such as masnavi for example; but i doubt he set himself down to read tadrib al-rawi or nuz'hatu'n nazar or itqan or tibyan or mishkat or tafsir azizi any commentary of arbayin an-nawawiyyah.

    he knew qur'an and hadith that he happened to chance upon by way of other works he had read, wAllahu a'alam, but i doubt he read works of hadith and qur'an specifically.

    i did, and i found him as ignorant about kalam arguments of ashayirah your modern bloggers.

    you and other iqbal-admirers may scorn our imams and probably think they were backward or uninformed; but still, the least one should do to criticise them - for intellectual integrity - is that you should read them before you can diss them and blame them by citing orientalist opinions.

    i suppose the work has not received serious criticism for a few reasons and foremost because the work was originally written in english and thus inaccessible to ulama who could refute it. besides, they should also be aware of the numerous philosophers, orientalists and their positions iqbal simply mentions (much like a name-dropping/copy-paste bloggers acting as experts) without really addressing those issues.

    unfortunately, iqbal fails to rise to the occasion and buckles under the weight of ignorance - he takes the easier route of following western philosophers who tried to address the "problems" of theism; like all those who are ignorant of ilm al-sharif (this ilm of mustafa SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is not gained by mere aspiration; and it is noor that is not the share of fussaq) assumes that scholars of islam must have been backward or uninformed or incapable of handling complex and abstract theories. and sadly, similar to most "intellectual" "scientist" "modern-progressive thinkers" of our time, acts like a brown sahib has an acute inferiority complex, citing orientalists and western philosophers to 'reform' religious thought and being apologetic about islamic concepts.

    imagine "SIR" iqbal on his knees, with folded hands in a hall full of philosophers imploring: "please, please, i am intellectual. i think islamic concepts are as progressive and appealing to your great minds - if i can help reinterpret and reform or rephrase from what the backward mulla does. please, i beg you, do not discard me from your majlis, just because your enlightened minds disapprove of the ideas of my people; see? i can quote a number of western/orientalist philosophers/authors. i beg you, i am an "intellectual" - do not turn me away from your majlis."

    that is how his treatise appears. for shame, iqbal's 'reconstruction' is full of half-baked theories and blind reliance on ideas of western philosophers, which he uses to support his arguments. what a criminal waste of such fine intelligence.

    who cares for a opinions of juhala? what 'education'? you mean he knew all the names of philosophers and metaphysics? as if it will help him in his grave and afterlife. if you haven't noticed, we had forgotten that you exist - until you came back announcing that you were around. your criticising ulama is similar to intellectual insects who try to annoy a lion with their buzzing.

    iqbal was a poet - not a religious figure and his "reconstruction" might be of philosophical interest, but from a religious and islamic point of view, nonsensical rambling by someone who stumbles in basic concepts and facts. indeed, if i find time later in life, in-sha'Allah, i will write a refutation of that work and demonstrate iqbal's ignorance.

    just as you folk make assumptions about mulla sahiban.

    who cares? iqbal died and we don't know what is happening to him; so also, you will die and what you take to your grave is your own choice. i too will die, and i wish to die as a muslim who had blind faith in qur'an and hadith, and who followed righteous ulama diligently.

    when you and i are gone - what others say about us will neither hurt or benefit us.

    الكيس من دان نفسه وعمل لما بعد الموت والعاجزمن اتبع نفسه هواها وتمنى على الله

    the wise man reflects, takes account of his own self (or nafs) and works for (life) after death;
    and the weak (or foolish) man follows his nafs and its desires and has high-hopes that Allah ta'ala (will not question him).
    (tirmidhi #2459; ibn majah #4260)

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Allah ta'ala knows best
    Aqdas likes this.
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    the nonMuslim social scientists have done surveys on this topic to death.

    their simple conclusion - the present western relationships model started off with the judeo-christian tradition of monogamy and heterosexuality, which could somehow provide certain incoherent or inconsistent justifications for the romeo-julliette type bf-gf romanticism of disillusioned orientalists and uncle toms. it is basically known as the 'the dating rat race' in post-modern terms. but that was only until the 1950's or 60's and is certainly not the case now. people should get a grip on reality on state things as they are, according to those studies and surveys.

    the current model is one of uncontrolled, wanton promiscuousness till they're ready to "settle down" and then when they do "tie the knot" it's mainly serial monogamy where they typically marry and divorce a few times till age of 70 (assuming they decide to marry, and not counting infidelity)

    for those who do marry in the west, the divorce rate reaches 50% or more

    common law partnerships/de facto relationships are the new trends rapidly taking over. in most of (or at least a good part of) europe roughly 1 out of 3 children are born out of wedlock. this model too is once again of serial monogamy. live with one man/woman for a few years, then find another room-mate or move in somewhere else.

    some "traditional" westerners could bypass the promiscuous stage (15-30) and head directly to the serial monogamy stage. yes, there will be exceptions who do have truly successful and monogamous relationships that some disillusioned orientalists might cite, but that is not the general trend.

    and this is all by choice, not by "bad luck" or circumstances beyond their control (as opposed to desis in the uk being conned into a bad marriage from their ancestral pind by a conniving uncle or aunt). with the typical nonMuslim heterosexual western demographic it's a very conscious lifestyle choice and social model they have opted for as a society. (we are Muslims, and take our do's and don'ts from our God-given Shari3ah, and are not "free-thinkers" when it comes to categorically stated do's and don'ts in the Shari3ah. the case with the zanadiqah is somewhat different)

    that's not counting the lgbtq demographic.

    those desi young people you talk about, need to be taught to call a spade a spade and come to grips with reality.
  14. Yasser Rashid

    Yasser Rashid Active Member

    Apart from the pompous tone of expression that you clearly have, I will try my utmost to refrain from ad hominem attacks and critique only those points I deem flawed:

    I don't want to divert this thread, but whatever you mean by "reconstruction" if it's beliefs or practises (as you have implied clearly elsewhere) then you're far from the truth.
    If its scientifically and technologically however, then I must agree.

    As for marrying from Pakistan, you're probably right really that people do want boyfriend/girlfriend relations, but they're short lived and inconsistent because young people here are immature in terms of love relations. They don't cement and make permanent such probably due to the very free society we live and therefore expect better. Great expectations

    Why? Because us youngsters in England possess a sense of arrogance in that we think there are plenty of fish in the sea and that we may catch all the fish because we deludedly believe life will last forever and ever.

    Lo and behold! At 35+ we realise our looks are deteriorating and no one really likes us as much as they did when we were 20/25.

    So what do we resort to naqshbandi? Pakistan!

    So what am I trying to say?
    I'm trying to say no one disagrees with you that marrying from Pakistan is pointless in and of itself, but when we're all clearly stuck up and arrogant about marrying each other in England for several reasons the best resort is back home.

    Reasons range from what I've already mentioned:

    a) great expectations. That us expecting the best spouse- probably due the open society we live in. Which allows us to procrastinate and end up with mid life crisis. This also probably shows why free mixing isn't as good as you think naqshbandi.

    and many many other factors I don't want to go into. Because most people are like dumb zombies and its not even worth elaborating upon anything. Let's just go back to sleep!
  15. Some good points:
    1. I agree with the language although how much will be kept is still debatable as second and third gen pakistanis in the UK whose parents both speak Punjabi at home often cannot speak it beyond a few phrases. As for the 'culture' I think it is inevitable that when you move to another country permanently you will take on the host culture and gradually lose your original culture. I think part of the problem is when people try to hold on to their own culture at any cost even when in their original countries the people have themselves moved on.
    2. I don't think that that is a good thing necessarily. I think it is better for those Muslims already in the UK to make their own lives better rather than trying to increase our numbers through immigration via marriage! Besides, relations between communities are already strained and things will only get worse if more and more immigrants come. The problem is that most of the Pakistani community from the UK comes from village backgrounds with the associated mentality and finds it hard to integrate (compared with the US Paki community which is from much more urban backgrounds and hence better integrated due to education and open-mindedness) and when you bring in a spouse from the village she brings with her the same old village mentality. It is a vicious circle which can only be broken by stopping the import of brides or grooms from 'back home'. Also, immigration is a big issue throughout Europe -- esp. from Muslim countries -- and one certainty is that any government in future will make it harder and harder to bring people in who are not highly educated. Anti-immigration is a popular slogan and will win votes. I think its also better for our community in the long run as it will help us assimilate just like the Jewish community has assimilated and the Sikh and Hindu and Afro-Carribean community.
    3. Lol!
    4. That's the problem jokes aside. nothing wrong with people wanted to move somewhere for economic benefits -- but then they should be willing to adapt to the culture of their chosen new home and accept that, even if they don't, their children or their children's children definitely will become assimilated. If you don't want to pay that price -- and it's fine if you don't -- then you should stay where you are.
  16. Yes, Iqbal did and yet he still called for reform. Just as you follow your scholars in their views, why can't I, for example, follow Iqbal in his views?
    He was, after all, much more educated than most of the maulana sahibaan. And you don't know how much Iqbal i've read and haven't read. As per usual you're just making assumptions.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
  17. Yes, Iqbal did and yet he still called for reform. Just as you follow your scholars in their views, why can't I, for example, follow Iqbal in his views? You should read his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
  18. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    At least Iqbal knew the Quran and Hadith, Arabic and Farsi, and read the works of the Ulama. I don't think you've even read all the works of Iqbal never mind some of the works of Islam.

    Before you call for reformation like Luther King at least study something and have some intellectual weight. Otherwise there are plenty of uneducated (in Islam) Uncle Toms in Lahore and the rest of Punjab and Karachi who call for reforms but are not taken seriously.
  19. Haqbahu

    Haqbahu Veteran

    Some of the advantages of marrying from your home country (for example Pakistan):

    1) It will help in keeping the language (Urdu), culture and (depending on the person) religiousity of the community alive;
    2) it will increase the number of Muslims in the country; and numbers count in a democracy
    3) Your in-laws won't trouble you
    4) It will give a chance to a person to also go to the great "walait" and pluck banknotes from trees ;)
  20. ,,,but if you're asking am I a Muslim, then yes alhamdulillah I am. Like Iqbal (ra) I do think that the whole corpus needs reform though keeping the core beliefs in Allah and Rasul aside...

    I also agree with you that marriage with the right person is a blessing.

Share This Page