Attributing Zamaan, Makaan, Jism and Jihah to Allah

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Ibn Hadi, Sep 12, 2017.

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  1. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    Astaghfirullah. It's really a shame that many Arab scholars aren't aware of the reality of Deoband. I think these Deobandis are more dangerous than regular Wahhabis.

    At least a Wahhabi is open about his belief. But Deobandis claim to be Maturidi, Hanafi, Sufi.

    May Allah protect us.
    Umar99 and Aqdas like this.
  2. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    See here:
    "There is a third path which a group of the predecessors took, and al-Hafiz al-Dhahabi, ‘Allamah Ibn Taymiyyah and his student Ibn al-Qayyim (Allah Most High have mercy on them) preferred, and it is that the intended meaning of “finger” is its literal sense (ma’naha l-haqiqiyyah) but it is an attribute of Allah (Most High), is not a limb and is not like the fingers of creation, rather its kayfiyya (modality) is unknown."
  3. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    ibn adam deobandi states here the following:

    "As for the texts describing Allah to be in the heavens/sky and above His Throne – which are the real point of contention, and apparently go against the above core belief in Allah’s transcendence – one may adopt any of the following positions; and all of them are valid positions and none of them can be considered outright deviation:

    a) Consigning their meanings and details completely to the knowledge of Allah. This position, known as tafwid, was chosen by the majority of early scholars (salaf), and by far the best and safest approach.

    b) Affirming their literal meanings (tathbit) – with emphatic rejection of a similitude between Allah and His creation – and then consigning the modality (kayfiyya) of such texts to the knowledge of Allah. This position, chosen by scholars such as Imam Ibn Taymiya, can be risky for an average believer.

    c) Interpreting such texts figuratively in a manner that befits Allah. This is known as ta’wil, and was chosen by some later scholars.

    He does not realize that affirming the literal meaning and consigning modality is the same as tashbih. In the following paragraph he states that Taqi Usmani has the same position.
  4. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    JazakAllah Khair
    sunni_92 likes this.
  5. sunni_92

    sunni_92 New Member

    OK sorry brother, my Bad!

    Advice; Try using the 'Search' button, it has a powerful built in search which can find kew words on subjects you may be confused about.

    In the other shab e baraat thread you wanted answers for 15th Shabaan fast; I've just done a search and the hadiths can easily be found.

    If you've searched and genuinely didn't find an answer, then of course you can ask; it saves a lot of peoples time and effort if we all used the 'Search' function.

    Hope that makes sense brother. Forgive me if you feel I've offended you; this advice if for me and then for everyone else who visits.
    Umar99 likes this.
  6. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    I cannot, my parents, family, everyone I know and am around are Salafi, they take me to their friends to explain things to me and this is what they say and I am unable to reply so I ask on here for answers.
  7. sunni_92

    sunni_92 New Member

    Brother Umar99, you need to ignore these salafis and shun their company; you will have 1000 questions that need answering!

    Prophetic advice is to abandon the company of the people of biddah.

    Regarding Imam Ashari and the so called book 'Al-Ibaanah' have a look at this link from GF Haddad.

    (Scroll half way down until you find the Title - The Corrupt Text of al-Ash`ari's al-Ibana)
  8. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    One "Salafi" said to me today " We do not believe Allah is in a Makan as Makaan is only present in the khalq but Allah is above the khalq and so makaan cannot apply here. We believe Allah is above the Arsh even when He "descends" to the lowest heaven. Also the 4 imams Rahmatullah Alayhim believe Allah is above the Arsh bi dhatihi. And this is clear from the Hadith of the Jariya . We only take from the ulama such as Ibn Hajar Asqalani and Imam Nawawi Rahmatullah alayhim in matters that agree with Salafus Salih, as for their statements in Aqeedah that contradict them we do not take, they were Asharis yet Imam Abul Hasan Ashari Rahmatullah Alayh retracted from his earlier opinion on turned to the "Salafi manhaj" and wrote a work called Al Ibaanah that was his last word on the matter"
  9. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    Oh subhanAllah, didn't realise before, I follow him on facebook, and that ismaeel de silva, he's dodgy too then
  10. Muhammad786

    Muhammad786 New Member

    Read this entire thread, especially Mawlana AH's refutation of Tauqeer Sahib and you'll be able to answer that question for yourself bhai.
  11. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    He's dodgy?
  12. Muhammad786

    Muhammad786 New Member

    Tauqeer Sahib AKA 'Spirit Priest' still says Allah is everywhere...

    Attached Files:

  13. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Yes, my post wasn't meant to be a critique :) Was just a comment on me mistakenly thinking Ala Hazrat had translated istiwaa...

    If anything my appreciation for your efforts has grown!
  14. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    brother, I am sure you know the various meanings of the word "establish" - and like you said, it is much safer than "stationed / sitting". The dilemma is that if you use the word "istiwa" again in English, then it is not a translation at all - and will in fact leave the readers perplexed.

    despite that, to avoid any misinterpretations / ambiguities, you will see "(befitting His Majesty)" and "(of Control)" used in the same sentence.

    I have tried my best, but I am not even a speck compared to Ala Hazrat. may Allah forgive me for the unintentional errors that may have crept in due to my limited abilities. and only Allah is the Most Perfect.

    Suggestions for improvements if any are welcome, and will be incorporated in the next edition - in sha Allah.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  15. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Brother Aqib Qadri's English translation of Surah 57 verse 4 based on Kanz ul Iman:
    "It is He Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then (befitting His Majesty) established Himself upon the Throne (of Control);..."

    But Kanz ul Iman uses the term "istiwaa farmaayaa", not established*. For whatever reason, I had in mind that brother Aqib's work was a translation of Kanz ul Iman** (as such I was thinking Ala Hazrat translated istiwaa as established in Urdu), but it's not; it's a beautiful English translation of the Qur'an based on and inspired by (but not 100% exact match to) Kanz ul Iman.

    * I can see the dilemma though of how to translate this into English, and established is a much safer and better term than stationed or sitting

    ** My PDF copy has the title AN ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY QUR’AN (FROM URDU TRANSLATION CALLED “KANZ UL IMAAN” BY IMAM AHMED RAZA KHAN) - the word from threw me off (or I'm probably being too nitpicky)
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
  16. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    Here's some more of the same fitna (see 4:22 to 5:55)...watched by 90k viewers to date, how many have had their aqidah ruined because of this individual?
  17. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    So when he says: It is for this reason Imam Malik ibn Anas said very angrily when being asked about the nature of Allah’s being stationed on his throne, “The nature is inconceivable, his stationing is known, believing in it is obligatory and asking about it is an innovation.”

    then he has probably misinterpreted Imam Malik as well; because Imam Malik spoke Arabic and likely would have used the term istiwa (which is appropriate since that is from the Qur'an and Hadith; in fact Imam Malik probably used the same wording from the Qur'an), and not the term or meaning of 'stationing' (which he has most likely interpreted into English incorrectly).
    Unbeknown likes this.
  18. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    So it's clear then that an individual who answers the question in the manner he did is incompetent / not safe to take or learn aqidah from. Does it also result in the individual being classified as deviant (because he did ta'wil in a way that demonstrates tashbih)? Or does he escape this because he qualified his statements with:
    • "Allah is not confined or restricted to a direction or space in any shape or form";
    • "The true nature and condition of this is only known to him as this is derived from the ambiguous texts (mutashäbihät) and no one is aware of its interpretation except Allah. Hence our stance in such matters is that we believe in such texts as is without investigating its details"; and
    • " a manner that befits him"?
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator


    wa dhatan an jihati's sitti khaali
    He is transcendent from all the six directions (right, left, above/top, below/bottom, front and back)
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the person who wrote that makes the common mistakes most selfies do online.

    they claim to not make ta'wil but happily translate istiwa and yad and the rest into english!
    their simple minds cannot comprehend the fact that translation is a form of ta'wil, and if indeed one has to do ta'wil, they should do it in a way that demonstrates tanzih - not tashbih.

    it would have better for him if he said:
    we believe in istiwa of Allah ta'ala on the Throne - the meaning of which only He knows and that which befits His transcendence. this is the madh'hab of tafwiD; the latter ulama explained it in a way that does not confuse common people or force them to make deductions and things that come to their mind.

    so if you tell a common man: istiwa literally means to sit, he will most likely imagine a form "sitting" on the Throne - al-iyadhu billah. to avoid this dilemma, ulama explained such things in a way a common man can understand, and such an explanation - or ta'wil - is not far-fetched. so if 'yad' is explained as Divine Power, the selfies/wahabis go into a fit, but do not see the simple thing:

    - no one can deny Divine Power, not even the extreme anthropomorphist selfie. so the description per-se is not wrong.

    so, if we say that 'yad' may mean Divine Power - as a well-known idiom in arabic - but the real meaning is known to Allah ta'ala alone; we believe in it unconditionally and submit to Allah ta'ala, saying we believe in it as He Intended.

    wAllahu a'alam.
    Unbeknown likes this.

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