Book: maslak e ikhtilal

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Unbeknown, Nov 18, 2017.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    who are they? why no taqareez? we just have to believe it on hearsay?

    misinterpreted. that's the escape word. have you read the book yourself brother?

    why don't you prove your statements? where are those refutations of free pick and choose? I am waiting to hear them.

    I guess alahazrat is not a classical sunni faqih. And saqib shaami has understood the works of fiqh better than alahazrat.

    This book does not represent the maslak of alahazrat. at least have the guts to say that.


    maybe you are misinformed?

    The hadith and it's "fahm" and "understanding" has been provided by alahazrat himself. If you and saqib don't consider him a sunni aalim - just say so. We won't bother.

    it is obvious you cannot read Urdu or else you did not bother to read alahazrat's fatwa.

    If you can read urdu - tell us what alahazrat says in this image - re-attaching for your benefit:

    masail-e-sama-ans-1.1.png

    If you do not explain we will be forced to conclude that you cannot read Urdu and hence, you too have not read the book.

    wa's salaam
     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i haven't commented on the book per se as i have not seen the book, and i have said it so too. here.
     
  3. Rizvi_Qadri

    Rizvi_Qadri New Member

    This book has been read, endorsed and ratified by many of the most senior scholars of Ahlus Sunnah. It seems that the positions within the book, mentioned by Shaykh Saqib, are being misinterpreted by brothers here to the extent that the concepts refuted by Shaykh Saqib in his book are being ascribed to him.

    Brother Abu Hasan, from my knowledge the book is widely available in the UK, Pakistan & India especially in Madaris, darululm libraries or you may contact senior sunni muftiyan e kiram for a copy. I believe it is only fair to comment on the book once you have fully read it yourself, as nothing in the book is based on the Shaykhs personal opinion.

    Every claim he made is proven with references from classical fuqaha of ahlussunnah, perhaps this is why it has not been refuted by senior ulama as of yet?

    From my knowledge, Maslak e itidal was sent to senior sunni Muftiyan e kiram in India and Pakistan, 6 months before publishing and after many debates and discussions with ulama, only then was the book published.

    Shaykh Saqib had made it very clear in the very begining that if senior muftiyan e kiram can prove the content of the book is against the sunni islam, he would make tauba and not publish the book.

    I humbly request the brothers to read the book and discuss with sunni ulama before commenting. Brother Aqib al qadri, you should get hold of the book as well, there is a chapter on Sama bil Mazamir in the book which covers the ikhtilaf of Sunni ulama in this regard... as for the ahadith you have quoted regarding mazameer, the common answer shaykh saqib has given for such objections in his public talks is that we are not mujtahid, we are muqallidoon and we present the understanding of our ulama regarding these ahadith when we discuss with fellow sunnis. If a salafi presents ahadith to refute us, we would respond with ahadith and even that, in light of the fahm of our Sunni Ulama.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  4. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    In the video interview Saqib Shami clearly says in relation to the words of the Hadeeth, "Balkeh main is mein lafze 'mazameer' ka istemaal karta huN" - In fact, in this instance, I use the word 'mazameer' (instead of the words in the Hadeeth)" Does this classify as tahreef of the noble words of the Hadeeth or not?

    He then proceeds to say, "hum koshish kartey hain keh is lafz (mazameer) ko raaej kiya jaaye aur mazameer ke saath mehfil samaa ka ehtemaam kiya jaaye"; "Our efforts are to make this word (mazameer) popular and to hold "sama" gatherings along with the "mazameer".

    While the Hadeeth of Bukhaari Shareef mentions, "there will certainly be people among my Ummah who will deem permissible the private parts of women, i.e. (committing) fornication, and (wearing ) silk garments, and (drinking) alcohol, and (the use of) mazameer. "

    and in another hadeeth, the Noble Prophet (Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) said, "I have been sent to destroy the "mazameer".

    I have purposely left out translating the word "mazameer", in order to highlight the common usage of the same word, and how it conflicts with the impermissibility mentioned by the Noble Prophet, and the permission being granted by Saqib Shami.
     
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  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    is the book available as pdf? not even for the benefit of the ummah?
     
  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    The correct procedure of seeking a ruling about an issue as per the enlightened research of HH pir saqib shami is as follows:

    If you ask a mufti whether some thing is halal - well sir, you are an idiot. The correct question to ask is:

    Is there any scholar (status is no bar) in any madhhab who has permitted this?

    Few examples:

    If you want to sport a five o clock shadow then you had better not approach a hanafi mufti. go to a shafi'i or maliki mufti. will save you a lot of trouble.

    If you have just touched your wife after performing wudu and you are feeling too lazy to repeat the wudu - well, just follow the hanafi madhhab.

    If you want to perform ghusl and the water is just about two qullah and you notice a dead rat in it, well no issues - just follow shafi'i madhhab and continue with your ghusl (rats!).

    you are at a restaurant and you wish to eat prawns - follow shafi madhhab.

    and the list goes on.

    basically, since you are an aami (a totally clueless and brain-dead layman), HH saqib shami has proven that you have no madhhab - I repeat, no madhhab whatsoever.

    So you can follow any ruling you like, any time you like. and keep changing too. you can even roll a dice to decide according to which madhhab you will offer the current salah.

    this is maslak-e-iytidaal. this is the enlightened reading of the hadith "differences in my ummah are a mercy" (peace be upon him).

    ----

    now if anyone can prove the above incorrect from the book 'maslak-i-iytidaal' I will be happy to hear his reasoning.
     
  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    The rules of the game are carefully crafted - you have no earthly way of proving that person x is a fasiq.

    anything you have an issue with will have to be proven haram by ijma' qatyi - which will have to be ijma' -e- ummat - which will have to have taken place before 200 AH.

    ijma' of the four madhabs? inconsequential.
    ijma' of ahlussunnah? inconsequential.
    ijma' of ummat but zanni? inconsequential.
    hadith mutawatir and explicit verses from the qur'an? all subject to ta'weel, besides you can always find some shaadh opinion in some book or another which will prove that they mean exactly the opposite of what they read.
    Alahazrat said it? oh, he is not ma'sum!

    geddit?

    So what problems do you have?

    musician? - not fasiq.
    clean-shaven? - not fasiq.
    dyes hair black? not fasiq.
    wears metal bracelets, 10 rings, and chains? some scholar in some book will have differed about it's ruling or others will have misattributed it to him - which is good enough.
    hairs extend below shoulders? - prove it's haram by ijma'-e-ummat.
    reads kufri verses? prove they are kufr iltezami by ijma'-e-ummat.
    attends events with rawafid and other deviants? not our concern
    sits with be-purdah women? - not his fault
    offers salah? who knows? and seriously, who cares?
    omits witr? allowed in shafi'i madhhab
    goes around in just undergarments - allowed in maliki madhhab.
    drinks nabeedh? well, the real hanafis have ruled it halal

    feel free to add to the list but you will always find HH saqib shami one step ahead of you.

    sorry sidi you are out-witted...
     
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  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    for the sake of argument, even if you ignore the poor mr.harmonium and make it halal, does the maslak e iytidal permit the rest of the samaa (atmosphere) in the so-called majlis-e-sama'a?

    fussaq who sing fasiq poetry otherwise, become devout naat-singers with mr.harmonium of course. so under the guise of (regardless of its being a contention) permitting mazameer, they permit the whole thing.

    all that remains is break-dance that tahir permitted as raqS.
     
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  9. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    with the internet, the viewers number in thousands and the number will keep increasing as more and more people watch it - just imagine the cumulative effect of the sins of all of them!
     
  10. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    The following is a rough translation of the first question (there are five) in Alahazrat's 'Masail-e-Samaa' (a short booklet of approx. 20 pages):

    Sufi claimants of our times (mutasawwif e zamāna), who organize gatherings of song and mirth (majlis e samà wa surūr) which include melodies (rāg) and dancing (raqs) and musical instruments (mazāmeer o màazif) of all varieties and besides such embellishments (takallufāt) as (ornamental) trees and lanterns, awnings (shāmiyana) and carpets and other unnecessary extravagances, no restrictions are imposed in regards to eligible and ineligible (ahal o na-ahal), pious and wicked (șālih o fāsiq), learnt and ignorant (àalim o jāhil), muslim and non-muslim (hindu o musalmān) etc.; everyone is free to attend, absolutely and without prejudice (izn-e-aam), with letters and advertisements being sent out to invite people from near and far (atrāf o aknāf). Are these activities proven to have a basis (asl) in the Qur'an and Hadith or Fiqh and Tasawwuf, and transmitted records of actions or statements (qawli ya fìli naql) of the honorable law-giver (peace be upon him) and the companions (rađyiAllahuànhum), or the mujtahids and scholars of the shariàh and tariqāh (i.e. is there asl and naql)?

    And if not, then if a person,considering it not just permissible (mubaaH) but also commendable (mustaHab) and canonical (masnun) and helpful in attaining the nearness of Allah ta'ala (mūjib e taqarrub ila Allah), keeps committing it and also exhorting others to it to the extent that owing to his instigation, in some locations (which are free of it), the act begins to attract notice and continues (to gain prominence or becomes established), will such a person be deemed as misguided and a propagator of misguidance or not?


    The question specifically mentions, "considering it halal and sunnah".

    Excerpts from the answer:

    masail-e-sama-ans-1.1.png

    In the above snippet alahazrat says that the ahadith on prohibition of mazameer have reached the extent of tawatur.

    masail-e-sama-ans-1.1.png

    The following is from PDF page 6 and 7:
    masail-e-sama-ans-1.2.png

    In the above he says that all attendees are sinners and their combined sins will add to those of the qawwal and the combination of all of these will add to those of the organizers (saqib shaami in the current case) - and considering it halal - does not exonerate them but in fact it is "dhitaai" adamance over sin and is even worse.

    NOW where is that great 'maslak-e-i'tidaal' according to which considering musical qawwali halal automatically makes it halal?


    In the last sentence he says that to consider this thing as a 'means of attaining closeness to Allah' is "ignorance and deviance" (obvious: deviance is worse than fisq) and insistence on it is "an enormous and extreme calamity" and calling others to it is "exhortation to and advertisement of abomination and a deception/misguidance".

    ----

    Now read all of the above and the question translated above and watch the following video, the fatwa fits shaami accurately:




    This book is an iftira, a lie, against alahazrat and a clever weapon of vendetta against those sunni scholars whom he considers his rivals.

    The worst hit are his mureeds who have put their faith in such an unscrupulous person.

    We seek Allah's refuge from the evil of created things.
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. sunni12

    sunni12 New Member

    Jama kartey ho kyun raqibon ko
    Ek tamasha huwa, gila na huwa
     
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  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    HH saqib shami has a history of making whimsical claims.

    To see the complete picture, it is imperative to put this book in the wider context of his earlier shenanigans.

    1. See this thread for his empty boasts regarding qawwali and sidi abu hasan's forceful refutation.

    2. Here's the thread where he is openly claiming that sticking to a madhhab is not mandatory and one can change at will.

    3. The same post was repeated in this thread.

    As can be seen from #2 above he always appears unsure whether to address the scholars or the common people. Stuff intended "exclusively" for scholars tends to appear on facebook and also gets printed and then promoted on facebook.

    btw, just look at this insanity - providing your facebook profile link is a "required" field for the bayah request. I guess HH has found an ijma'a qati' for facebook profiles being integral to tasawwuf - hence the insistence...
     
  13. ridawi

    ridawi Muhammadi Sunni Hanafi

    Let’s see, shall we?

    In the section of 'using black dye’, saqib saheb says it is not permissible to call a person who uses black dye a fasiq or sinful if he considers black dye permissible. Why? Because the ulema, even within the ahnaf, differ upon its hurmat [pgs 106-107]. He references alahazrat’s risala on this topic, showing that alahazrat consideres it mutlaqan haram.

    However, in that very risala, alahazrat writes that most mashayikh and ulema consider black dye to be prohibited (mana’). When the ulema use the word karahat, they mean karahat e tahrim, the doer of which is sinful and deserving of punishment [fatawa ridawiyyah 23/501]. Saqib saheb conveniently forgets that this part exists when quoting elsewhere from the risala.

    In fatawa amjadiyyah, in answering a question regarding praying salah behind an imam who applies black dye, sadr al-shari’ah writes: if he habitually applies black dye, then his imamat is makruh e tahrimi [fatawa amjadiyyah 1/160].

    Qadi 'abd al-Rahim bastawi writes in one fatwa:
    The imam who applies black dye is a fasiq e mu’lin and as such salah behind him is makruh e tahrimi [fatawa bareilly sharif, pg 69].

    Maybe all these ulema never got the memo saqib saheb got.

    As for qawwali with musical instruments-
    again, saqib saheb takes the position that tafsiq cannot be done of those who indulge in qawwali while considering it to be permissible.

    Alahazrat, when asked about the imamat of a person who listens to qawwali with musical instruments, writes:
    To hold a gathering of musical instruments is fisq [fatawa ridawiyyah 6/608].

    Elsewhere, in answering a similar question, alahazrat writes:
    If a person openly does so [qawwali with musical instruments], do not make him the imam and it is not free from karahat in any case [6/596].

    Contemporary qawwali mehfils are held by qawwals who have clean shaven beards, who have long hair beyond their shoulders, who wear more than one ring made from all sorts of materials, miss salah intentionally - because of all this they are all fussaq. We all know the ruling of respecting fussaq. Does it suit the ulema to sit among such fussaq? Tafsiq of someone who attends such qawwali mehfils isn’t just based on musical instruments alone. If, for arguments, we agree that you can’t do tafsiq of those who do musical instruments because of the ikhtilaf, there are plenty of other reasons why an attendant of a qawwali mehfil becomes a fasiq.

    But I guess saqib saheb truly does know the books and fatawa of alahazrat really well. Better than most "Barelvis" these days. Let’s leave it to him to explain to us the books of alahazrat.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
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  14. ridawi

    ridawi Muhammadi Sunni Hanafi

    It’s true, you have missed his point or maybe you haven’t read the book at all. In the examples of ikhtilaf, he doesn’t mention anything of what you have mentioned. In fact, he doesn’t even talk about beard, despite the fact that he himself doesn’t have a fistful beard.

    So what exactly did you discuss?
     
  15. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    you have missed his point entirely - that is not his point. perhaps you haven't read the book properly.

    a brotherly suggestion: keep away from him - he is not a scholar by any stretch.

    pure conjecture. and easily disproven.

    Shafi'i madhhab has been prevalent in south India since ages.

    who all stated this and what evidence do they have to prove this?

    alahazrat's fatwa in ajla al 'ilaam is clear and unambiguous as is his fatwa in fazl-ul-mawhabi. And he emphatically states that tons of books have been written refuting this concept of free-floating and unbounded pick and choose.

    Do you think that all these tons of books have been written by subcontinental scholars only?

    Perhaps His Highness Prince Saqib Shaami (and whoever all these are) know better than alahazrat.
     
  16. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    You miss the point entirely. Nowhere is he saying we should abandon the madhabs.
    A Hanafi who omits Witr IS deemed as sinful.

    Pir Saqib’s point (for example) is that A Hanafi can’t call a Shafi’i a fasiq if thé Shafi’i person is clean shaven.

    Or another example. If a person follows the Maliki madhab and eats snails, a Hanafi CAN’T call that person a faasiq.

    Regarding picking and choosing between diffeeent madhabs, all the Ulama I’ve asked say this

    “It is permissible as long as there is no Talfiq”

    I’ve heard this same statement when I met Shaykh Asrar Rashid, Shaykh Saqib Shaami, and others.
    They all stated that the only reason Subcontinent Ulama are extremely strict on this issue is because there is no other madhab available there.

    It is a condition before switching madhabs that the person has the knowledge of the other madhab.

    Shaykh Sai’d Ramadan Al Bouti has a very good lecture on this.

    Imam Abdul Ghani Nabulsi also wrote a very good book on this issue.

    Please watch this short lecture of Al Bouti, towards the end he adresses the issue of Talfeeq clearly.
     
  17. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    snort.

    I dare say he hadn't even heard of ajla al 'ilaam before excerpts from it were posted by sidi abu Hasan.

    And I suggest you drop those condescending quotes. too rich coming from a His Highness Prince..erm.. I mean pir saqib shami admirer.
     
  18. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    the entire exercise was for this.

    spot on.

    so now - as per Pir Sahab - "har insaaf pasand sunni musalman" (every just sunni muslim) - even if totally ignorant, is a QADI who can decide between tafseeq or not.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
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  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in other words, just excuse saqib shami's short beard and listening to qawwali sung by fussaq with an orchestra.

    hence the book. got it.
     
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  20. ridawi

    ridawi Muhammadi Sunni Hanafi

    What I gather from reading the book, which is also evident from the summary section on page 62 is:

    - If a there is an act whose hurmat is differed upon by the scholars of the ahl al-sunnah and a person does this act considering it to be haram, he is sinful and a fasiq [point three, pg 62]. While on the other hand if a person does a mukhtalaf feeh act considering it to be halal, he is neither a kafir nor a fasiq [point four, pg 62] The examples given are: qawwali with musical instruments, using black dye, videography, using loudspeaker in salah etc.

    So the only cases when tafsiq will be done, according to what I gather from the book, are:
    - the first point above (doing a mukhtalaf feeh haram act while considering it to be haram);
    - and when a person does an ijma’i haram act considering it to be haram - this leads to fisq [point two, pg 62].

    That basically sums up the entire book.

    Even though you spent hours discussing the book, maybe you never read the sabab e taleef (purpose of compiling the book) that’s at the very beggining of the book. After reading it, it’s clear that his audience isn’t just the ulema. In his own words, it’s for: 'har insaaf pasand sunni musalman’ [page 11].

     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2017

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