can a waliy do anything he likes?

Discussion in 'Stories and Anecdotes' started by Taalib-e-Ilm, Jun 16, 2013.

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  1. Taalib-e-Ilm

    Taalib-e-Ilm Well-Known Member

  2. A Daleel

    A Daleel Guest

    merhaba ya mufti, ssheikh sahib

    as salaam 3alaykum

    I am not in a position at this moment to give a response due to the untimely death of His Eminence Khaademi Ahle Sunnat nalayni saadaat hadret Ustazh Ul ulema pir Sayyed Talib Hussain Shah Sahib Ghardaizi Raheemullahi ta3ala, but inshallah i will when i get the first opportunity to I will post a suitable reply to your post tawfiq lillah
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i tried to explain adaleel the mysteries of quote/unquote and the secrets of using paragraphs but he did not take it kindly. i don't mind that but, may i respectfully ask about the basis of this [spurious] story?

    unless you provide reference to the above 'story', every post of yours will be deleted. the second option for you would be to plead ignorance: that you don't know the basis of this story. people have a bad habit of throwing tales without heads or tails and walk away as if it is not their business to give references or details.

    ignoring the sarcasm, i may remind that you are welcome to post on this board as long as you do not post nonsense (like the story of shaykh bayazid above). we shall edit it. we try hard not to edit comments directed against ourselves [admins and moderators] - you are free to criticize us as much as you want. but sometimes, rants against us are interspersed in the lines we want to delete; so instead of trying to sort it out we delete the whole para/post. adaleel's post below is a good example.

    among other flights of fancy:
    can i ask you for a reference for this as well?
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2009
  4. A Daleel

    A Daleel Guest

  5. beautiful...thanks for the letter of Hazrat (Yahya?) Maneri :ra:
  6. Ibn.ali

    Ibn.ali Active Member

    Letters from a Sûfî Teacher
    Shaikh Sharfuddîn Manerî


    The Walee (or the Friend of God) is one who constantly receives the favours of the Deity, which consist in his being guarded against all troubles, the hardest of which is the commission of sins. As a Prophet must be sinless, so must a Friend be protected. The distinction between the two is this: The one is beyond the commission of a sin; the other is liable to commit a sin on rare occasions, but does not persist therein … The Friend is endowed with all possible virtues … Again, it is said, the Friend is he who does not fail in his duties to God and the universe. He does not serve through hope and fear of agreeable and dis*agreeable consequences. He does not set any value on his individuality…

    A Friend may be either known or unknown to the people. If unknown, he is not affected by the evils of fame …

    A Friend is he who does not long for the world or for Heaven, who forsakes himself for the Divine Friendship and turns his heart to the True One. … The Friends are the special objects of the Love of God. Owing to their devotion, they have been chosen as the Governors of His Kingdom, the chan*nels of His Activities, receive special powers, and are liberated from the bondage of the desire-nature. They do not desire anything save Him, nor feel attachment to anything save Him. They have been before us, are in these days, and will be till the end of the world …

    They are to-day the appointed Agents of God to serve as channels for the propagation of the messages of the ancient Prophets, and to govern the world—so that the rain may pour from heaven by Their blessings, that plants may grow from the earth by Their purity, and that the faithful may prevail over the faithless by Their strength.

    Superhuman powers are a kind of idols in this world. If a saint is content with their possession, he stops his onward progress. If he turns away from them he advances the cause of his union with God. Here is a subtle mystery, and it is this: True Friendship consists in the rejection of all save the Beloved. But attention to superhuman powers and reliance upon them means the rejection of the Beloved, and satisfaction with something other than Himself.—Letter 8.

    source :
  7. Ubaid

    Ubaid Active Member

    Dara o sikandar se wo mard e faqir aula
    Ho jis ki faqiri mein bu e asadullahi
  8. awliya can be mahfuz which is different from ma'sum. I suppose that it must mean free from any of the major sins as defined by shariah as it is possible for a person to be a saint and still commit a sin. only prophets are sinless.
  9. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    are there really such people like the Prophets who are free from sin? is this a reasonable stipulation?
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    if you are asking a question, then no i suppose, is a fair answer.

    i don't think there is a requirement that abdal are ONLY in shaam (though they can be found in shaam); nor that they be hidden.

    imam suyuTi in his short treatise: al-khabar ad-daal `ala wujud al-quTub wa'l awtad, wa'n nujaba wa'l abdal. [the guiding report: on the existence of qutub, awtad, nujaba and abdal] narrates a hadith that says 22 are in shaam and 18 others in iraq.

    in the ending of the paper, he narrates a saying of sayyid sahl ibn `abdullah at-tusturi radiyallahu `anhu:
    the abdal became abdal on account of four things:
    they speak little [qillat al-kalam]
    they eat little [wa qillat at-ta'am]
    they sleep little [wa qillat al-manaam]
    and their keeping company is little [wa'atizaali'l anaam]

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    does the above negate the idea that the abdal are in sham and are hidden?
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    abdal is plural of badal. waliy being a general term and badal being a rank among awliya.

    i assume not. nobody who is mukallaf can do what they like; as for those who aren't held responsible by the shari'ah, even they CANNOT do what they like; but they are exempt if they do so. ponder.

    in the first place, the title [of the first post] is not an inflexible statement for you to base your question. it is to draw attention towards another point that is made and it is made.

    with due respect to your elders, you base your judgement on their judgement which could be questionable in itself.

    it could be interpreted in many ways. why would he be barefoot unless there was a reason (assuming that the person was in his senses; zee hosh)? and could the reason be, that it was madinah on which the person walked barefoot? (why would anyone adore/respect the rejected land of najd? even the najdis probably don't care)
    o paaNw rakhney waley ye jaa chashm o sar ki hai
    o who sets his foot - this place is worthy of eyes and heads
    and it is quite likely that a person who is careful enough to not wear footwear on the blessed land, is careful enough to not trod on canonical impurity.

    or like, bishr al-Hafi (Hafi meaning barefoot) who walked barefoot because he did not want to walk on the 'mattress' [the earth] granted by the Lord Almighty Allah.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  13. Ibn.ali

    Ibn.ali Active Member

    Just came across this thread and following two questions came to my mind.

    1. What is the diffrence between an ''abdal'' and a (waliy) Friend of Allāh ?

    2. Can ''Abdal'' do anything he likes ?

    The reason I ask the second question is. I have personaly seen a Buzrug, who my father considered certainly to be an ''Abdal''. This Buzrug used to walk barefoot in the blistering summer heat of Saudi Arabia talking to himself.

    He used to walk straight into the mosque without giving it a thought that his feet are unclean as he was walking bare foot on the raod.
  14. calltoallah

    calltoallah Active Member

    The word wali, "saint," "Friend of Allah," has two etymological senses. The first assigns the word the meaning of a passive participle. The wali is then the person of whose affairs Allah, glory to Him, takes charge. Allah Most High has said, "He has charge over the doers of good" (7:196). Allah does not leave such a person with his own ego for even a moment. He Himself takes care of him."

    The second sense assigns the word the meaning of an intensive active participle. In this sense the wali takes the service and worship of Allah into his care, so that his service flows uninterruptedly without any disobedience intervening. Both of these descriptions are necessary for a wali to be truly a wali - his discharge of the rights due to Allah Most High through close study and full performance and Allah's continual protection of him in joy and sorrow. It is part of the definition of being a saint that one be protected, just as it is part of the definition of being a prophet that one be made incapable of sin. And anyone who objects to the statement that obedience to the religious law is required of a saint is mistaken and deceived.

    Abu'l-Qasim al-Qushayri, al-Risalah al-Qushayriyya, p. 313.
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i think we are all moving in and out of a couple of threads.

    asif is blowing his top in the other thread without reading properly. i did not criticise shaykh kabbani; but only the majlis. whether shaykh kabbani was responsible or not is a different matter and i don't want to argue. but the majlis should be emphatically rejected.

    my standpoint is simple: sama'a of sufiyah has to follow certain rules. if it does not, it is not permissible. any action that is contrary to the shariah should be described at is it is.

    let us take your point of the 'malamati' bent: we may abstain from criticizing the PERSON, but his action is rejected nevertheless. thus while imam junayd understood al-Hallaj's state, he yet signed on the fatwa to execute him. the latter because the shariah has to be upheld at all times.

    the reason why this story of bayazid [in two versions from the same book] is mentioned because it highlights two important things:
    - it is mentioned by a waliy whose greatness is acknowledged by all
    - the importance of following the sunnah and adhering to the shariah
    in other words: a man like bayazid, of such lofty stature, does not consider anyone a waliy when he finds him acting contrary to the sunnah.

    let us not extrapolate this point any further. the anecdote is meant to serve as an example for a principle, which, i think is achieved.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Last edited: May 9, 2007
  16. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    if one is supposedly on the malamati way then he wud be all three yet seem otherwise.

    like the old shaykh in delhi, unknown to the world in the time of Hazrat Nizamuddin Awlia radiy allahu anhu, who was approached by some of Hazrat Nizamuddin's murids, who had been asked by their Murshid to seek the du`a of this shaykh for rain, the murids returned back to their master saying that this person had a pitcher which resembled a wine pitcher by his side.

    only to be told later that he kept water in it so that people may not have a high opinion of him.
  17. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    aren't all awliya from the 'ulama? isn't this the first port of call? a jahil cannot be a wali, right?

    alaHazrat said that there are 4 conditions for a shaykh (from memory). he has to be:

    1. sunni
    2. practicing - not an open sinner [fasiq e mu'lin]
    3. have at least enough knowledge to read books and get religious rulings*
    4. have a chain back to rasulAllah sallAllahu 'alaihi wasallam

    * mufti yaar muhammad said some 'ulama say this means that he must be able to teach books like mishkat and jalalayn.

    obviously, a wali has to have 1, 2, 3 above.
  18. Miraj Ahmad

    Miraj Ahmad New Member

    As salamu alaikum,

    This may be relevant.

    Sayyid Ahmad Nuri Barkati, rahmatullah alay, writes:

    "The Murshid of my Murshid, the Grand Master, Shamsul-Aarifeen Sayyid Abul-Fadl Shamsudeen Ale’Ahmed Ache Mia t often said, “Do not argue with a Faqeer Soorat (Durwesh). If you find them be-Shar’ah (not following the Sharee’ah), do not associate with them”. The clearer explanation of the words of the Master is as follows. If you see a person clad in the garb of a Durwesh and does things contrary to the Sharee’ah, do not meet or argue with him because you do not know what powers and secrets of Allah may be hidden in their disguise. There are two wisdoms and benefits in not meeting and arguing with them. One is that if he is a fake, then his company will harm you. The other is that if he is genuine, then fighting and arguing with him will also harm you. So it is best to leave such persons in their own state and not interfere with them."

    From Siraj ul-Awarif:
  19. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    what i want to know is if there are any texual proofs that awliya control certain aspects of the universe in the manner that angels do, for example.

    been looking... how about this one - is it, perhaps, a proof?

    Tabarani said in his Mu`jam al-awsat:

    Anas said that the Prophet said: "The earth will never lack forty men similar to the Friend of the Merciful [Prophet Ibrahim], and through them people receive rain and are given help. None of them dies except Allah substitutes another in his place."

    Qatada said: "We do not doubt that al-Hasan [al-Basri] is one of them."

    Sh. GF Haddad:

    Narrated from Anas by al-Tabarani in al-Awsat with a fair chain and
    from Ibn Mas`ud with a chain containing two unknown narrators, both as
    per al-Haythami (10:63).
  20. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    I understand the general ruling, but what if the said person has a malamati bent, if I may use that term.

    for only the apparent is apparent but the hidden is hidden from us and we do not have the eyes of Bāyazīd al-Bisţāmi rađiyAllāhu ánhu, to see what he saw in full, apart from what he mentioned.

    just trying to see if there is a case to remain silent.

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