Co-Education = ?

Discussion in 'Other Mad'habs' started by Umar99, Apr 26, 2016.

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  1. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

    Also in Noor ul Irfan Tafseer under Quran 4:34 we find:

    From this verse a few issues emerge:

    1. It is incumbent upon the man to give financial support to the woman.

    2. To take care of the household affairs of the husband is the obligation of the wife.

    3. It is incumbent upon the wife to honour and respect the husband, therefore the wife should not address the husband by his name, nor make him do household chores.

    4. Earning the wealth by the husband, spending of these by the wife, is a means of receiving divine grace: man must not work with the spinning wheel and the wife, after acquiring a degree, should not go out to seek employment. If seeking employment was obligatory upon a woman, it would not have been the duty of the man to be responsible for her financial support.

    English: http://s595909773.online-home.ca/KB/Noor-ul-Arfan(Kanz-ul-Emaan) 1/WQB.pdf

    Urdu: http://www.alahazrat.net/Al-Quran/Kanzul-Iman-With-Noor-ul-Irfan/index.php?page=131
     
  2. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran

  3. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    If there is no other Mufti in that city, it is obligatory for the common man (`ammi) to turn towards that lone Mufti. If there are many, then he can ask whosoever he likes, as it is not necessary for him to seek the most knowledgeable amongst them. This was the practice in the time of Sahaba, when common folk would ask companions of every rank and they did not restrict themselves to just Abu Bakr, `Umar or other Caliphs.

    Some scholars have said that it is compulsory to turn towards the most knowledgeable amongst them. If there are equals, then one can choose whomsoever they like. But this opinion is against the unanimity of the Sahaba because in their times, issuing fatwas was not restricted to the companions of higher ranks (fadil).

    Rather, it is only obligatory [for the common man] to ask those whom he knows to be knowledgeable, trustworthy and judicious (`ilm wal-`adala).
    Yes, if two scholars differ in a particular matter he must return to them once more and say: “the rulings of you both are contradictory; and both of you are equal in my eyes”. If both of them allow him to choose whatsoever he likes, he does likewise. If both of them agree on a more cautious answer, or on that which is more helpful, he obeys them.

    But if they insist on the difference and there is no other way except to choose one of the two, he must defer the matter since neither of them is better than the other. The Imams are like the stars: he shall find guidance no matter whom he follows (wal-a’imma kal-nujum: fa-bi- ayyihim iqtada ihtada)

    If he [the commoner] thinks that one of them is more knowledgeable and of a higher stature than the other, he must ask the judge (qadi) of that city to choose for him. It is possible for even the lower (mafdul) ones to be among the people of ijtihad even if he is alone or if there are others with him [in his opinion.] Also, the degree of superiority [in knowledge] amongst them doesn’t matter.

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    wasn't this translated by you sidi abu Hasan?

    so what happens when we are unable to find an explicit ruling of permissibility?

    Is the following applicable?
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    The Concept of “’Umum al-Balwa”

    Rulings in the Sacred Law are not intended to place undue and excessive difficulties on people. The evidence for this is Allah’s saying, “Allah desires for you ease, he does not desire for you difficulty.” (Surah al-Baqarah 185) Also, Allah says, “There has not been made for you, in din, a difficulty.” (Surah al-Hajj 78) And, on the authority of Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet Muhammad (sallaAllahu alayhie wa sallam) said, “Verily, din is easy.” (Sahih al-Bukhari 1/59) These texts (and others) establish the well-accepted legal principle:

    المشقة تجلب التيسير، إذا ضاق الأمر اتسع​

    “Difficulty incurs ease; when a matter becomes constricted it widens.”
    This principle, moreover the evidence it is based upon, permits dispensation during difficult circumstance. Various reasons allow for a dispensation. One of these reasons is public affliction or ‘umum al-balwa.

    The widespread usage of denatured alcohol creates a situation where at some point most people will come into contact with a product containing it. A widespread affliction is considered accordingly under the discussion of the above mentioned principle. It is stated that:

    الحاجة العامة تنزل منزلة الضرورة الخاصة​

    “A public need reaches the level of individual necessity.”

    Therefore, in the instance that something is rife in the public sphere, it is considered an utter necessity. A necessity is considered in this context.
    The principle and the others connected to it are related by various authorities, such as Ibn al-Subki in al-Ashbah wa al-Naza’ir 1/48, Suyuti in al-Ashbah wa al-Naza’ir 160-80, and Zarkashi in al-Manthur fi al-Qawa’id 1/120; 2/24, 317; 3/169.

    When considering the issue in light of ‘umum al-balwa, it does not necessarily entail considering denatured alcohol pure. Rather, it may be considered excusable ['afw]. (Hashiyat Nihayat al-Muhtaj 1/101) And in his marginalia on Khatib, Bujayrimi cited Ramli as saying:

    المراد بعموم البلوى كثرته في ذلك المحل المقصود عادة بحيث لو كلفناه العدول عنه إلى غيره لأدى إلى الحرج​

    “What is meant by ‘umum al-balwa: it is consistently rampant in that given place, whereas if we made refraining from it necessary, that would entail difficulty.” (2/93)

    Examples of ‘Umum al-Balwa Being Applied

    1) In Nihayah with Shabramallisi’s marginalia 2/27-28, consideration is made for excusing impurities found in places commonly affected by them, like streets, pathways, restroom entrances, etc. Also, see Tuhfah with Sharwani’s 1/130.

    2) In Majmu’ 1/209, consideration is made for mouse droppings when a common affliction. Also, see al-Fatawa al-Kubra al-Fiqhiyyah 1/25.

    3) In al-Fatawa al-Kubra al-Fiqhiyyah 1/159, mention is made regarding some authorities considering small amounts of blood from the body’s orifices excusable.

    4) In Nihayah 1/204, wearing socks stitched from impure hair is excused. Also, see Ibn al-Subki’s al-Ashbah wa al-Naza’ir 1/49.

    5) In Nihayah 1/245, cheese with certain types of rennet is excused.


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    but then is this principle considered in hanafi usul?

    jazakallah. wassalaam.
     
  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    This is an excerpt from the collection of letters of imam al-Ghazali (rahimahullah) (available at al-ghazali.org):

    In times of emergency every state seeks protection in its impregnable fortresses when attacked by an enemy. Some politicians are of the opinion that magnificent horses and beautiful carriages and glittering coffers of gold can overpower the aggressors and that the land forces adequately armed with swords and guns are the best defending forces while other hold that only the states with material resources that have built expensive and majestic fortresses can successfully meet foreign aggression.

    The third group maintains that it is only through devout prayer that a nation can escape disaster. And there is no doubt that the belief of the third group is the soundest, because we know that true safety lies in a deep sense of religious devotion and that the Lord does not withhold protection from men,
    if they steadfastly trust in His mercy and pray for His grace.

    Others might fall in the hard crisis but the fakirs with their prayers must not fall. If they work perfectly in accordance with the Planning Will of the All Powerful Lord, they would acquire immense power. It may all sound absurd to those who suppose that strength and power are to be found only in great
    armies and equipment or in scientific achievements or in the vastness of economic resources, but as Islamic history reveals that their fakirs who did almost nothing but made their souls stainless mirrors for God, nothing but yearn upward into fellowship with Him, they made the most effective contribution to the defense of their country against foreign aggression. It is not the might of the armed forces that save a nation from destruction, it is the humble and ardent devotion of a pure heart that can completely liquidate the forces of darkness of all forms and build a new independent and prospering Islamic state.
    You should take a warning from the tragic fall of ‘Amir of Tus. It must have made it plain to you that the expensive robes and glittering coffers of gold and silver could not avoid the doom that overlooked them. Instead (he material contact of his soul was not a gain but a loss, not an assent but a descent, not a rise but a fall. This has been explained in the following verses of the Holy Qur’an:


    “Woe unto every slandering traducer, who bath gathered wealth (of this world) and arranged it. He thinketh that his wealth will render him immortal. Nay, but verily he will be consigned to the consuming one. Ah, what will convey unto thee what the consuming one is. (It is) the fire of Allah, kindled which leapeth up over the hearts (of men). Lo! It is closed in on them in outstretched columns.”

    Allah The Almighty says further that the hoarders of wealth will cry on the day of Resurrection:-

    “My wealth hath not availed me, my power hath gone from me.”

    If you would take into account the suffering to which the Amir of Khurasan was subjected you would be forced to the conclusion that a bowl containing soup and a loaf of bread in possession of a dervaish can work out a miracle which cannot be performed by millions of gold coins or trained soldiers, adequately equipped with deadly weapons, for God is a fortress and castle for all who seek His help. The prayer of a dervaish nullifies the effects of swords and guns and unveils the truth that the best fighting forces can safely be recruited from among the people who are observers of salah (prayers), fasts and night vigils and who weep during their prayers with the fervor of their emotions.

    The Holy Prophet (peace of Allah be upon him) has said:
    “Prayers rid mankind of its suffering.”
    In another place he has also said:
    “Prayer and calamity struggle with each other..”

    I have a written document at my disposal to convince me that your illustrious father, being given to understand that the king of Kirman bore a reputation for his almsgiving and for his feeding the poor, was down-hearted and deeply grieved, not because he disliked alms-giving, but because he wished that no man upon earth should equal or exceed him in good works.


    so if some muslims today, putting their trust in The Almighty, decide to leave the society to its whims and seek a route to which the shariah beckons them, leaving off even that which is doubtful, will not Allah suffice them? i.e why should it be only menial jobs or 'floor-sweeping', as Allamah Azmi warns us, be their lot? is it not possible that by careful planning and avoiding pitfalls they will reach such heights that remain unreachable to many who simply 'go with the flow'?
     
  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    for this specific reply i have said that maybe i didn't explain myself well. so for the time being lets not discuss the workplace issue.

    my mistake. but it does prevent free-mixing


    i preempted that comment by adding the following :)

    yeah, this is the crux of the matter

    oh no. the scholar i spoke of isn't a mufti, obviously, he couldn't have countered a mufti's reply. perhaps the muftis really don't want to take the responsibility of changing a traditional ruling upon their shoulders for fear of their own akhira?

    The situation seems to be like as you say. i mean, what do we do in such a case when we have fatwas forbidding an act and none permitting it, not even a clear disagreement, and we do not have a choice. do we do it anyways assuming that the muftis will come round to our way of thinking sooner or later, and if we do, do we do so while considering it a sin or not? can we take the liberty to claim a 'rukhsat' or, i don't know, 'umum al -balwa' or whatever the right term is? i don't care that i am doing something that all are doing anyways, but what should be the niyyah?

    is it like not stopping a 'munkar' beacuse of lack of power but considering it sinful in the heart all the same?

    and so far as i know, if there is only one person who can perform a certain fard-al-kifayah then it becomes fard-al-ayn for him. so do we say that those who aren't taking up the cause despite being able will carry the blame?

    i agree with what you say, only that the fatwas against it are clear but in favor of it are nowhere on the horizon

    as i said

    perhaps brother sunnistudent can help us here, he is close to many north-indian scholars including those i quoted above, maybe he can get us a convincing answer, if anyone can request him please do

    there is a final point i wish to make in the next post. it may seem childish or even idiotic but please bear with me and reply without getting annoyed .......
     
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    the number 1 reason for that is a household run by sheeple parents who instill sheeple values into their kids, without ever drilling down into deen and its morals without seeing how it applies to one's life

    we live in times where we think burqa, beard, pants above ankles, and 5 daily prayers and ramadan are all there is to islam, oh and the pathetically annoying obsession with reading labels for non-halal additives

    islam is reduced to a mere commodity sold on supermarket shelves

    9 out of 10 of such sheeple families, will have men who sport beautiful beards and women with impeccable manners and don the niqab. yet, ask a random few of them basic sunni 3aqaid, or basic fiqh of taharah and you'll see all sorts of nafsanic answers flying around illa ma sha Allah the few families where islam is not just an outer shell veiling a hollow existence just using religion to make one's own space in society - but rather the driving force behind the ethos of people's lives! in fact, some such people will indeed be modest and they might even be sincere in organizing their na3t-khwanis and Milads (as opposed to the fakes), but alas! they'd still rate very low on knowledge and actual drilling down into Islamic morality, and how it all connects to their real life situations.

    @unbeknown

    do we not go to Makkah too?

    one can spot ignorant women in the Haram of Makkah who paint their nails, wear makeup and lipstick, don't cover their hair properly, don't cover the arms properly, wear tight clothes etc.

    and sorry to say, but desi women are the MOST ignorant of hijab rules who think that the desi shalwar kameez worn in the traditional style is the shari3ah prescribed islamic clothing.
     
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    you are mixing up a number of things.

    ---
    is visiting graves haram when a number of immoral things are done at the site? ulama in their answers to wahabis have replied: criticise that which is Haram, but do not forbid the lawful.

    working in an organisation as long as such a profession is permitted by the shariah is halal. if there are evils in the workplace such as freemixing of women or girls without modest clothing, one should do their best to protect themselves - if they cannot stop it. but ruling that working in such a place is Haram would only mean that we should either till the fields or work in isolation.

    ----
    how does it automatically ensure segregation? but the point is not about the lady in question, but the underlying principle that working is fine - acting contrary to hijab is wrong.

    ----
    you mix up the ideal and real. indeed, we too wish the world was a lot more simpler and cleaner as in the old days. but unfortunately, reality is different. most, if not all, nursing and medical colleges are co-ed. if muslim girls do not go to such institutions, how do you expect them to be in hospitals? the other option of course, is to state it clearly that it is not necessary for muslim women to be examined by women/muslim gynecologists. (in fact, very few muslims heed this anyway, al-iyadhu billah).

    yes, what you forgot in the above statement is that players, times and conditions are all different which is a common fallacy.

    people of 'the community' which ignored everything are dead for a hundred years now; and the ulama who prevented them are also gone. the world in which we opened our eyes was already beleaguered with these ills. we do not want co-ed institutions, but do we have a choice?

    if we were born in 1920s or even 1940s when iqbal made his commentary, we would agree with him. communities were close knit, demands were simple and life was easier. today, neighbours do not care or even know each other - where divorces and spinsters were rare, today's communities have a surge of unmarried women, widows and divorcees. they go out to work because it is survival - of course, if there were murids and students to take care of their chores - or even responsible husbands, they would probably stay at home and watch madani channel.
    i agree with you that yes, the community should do things right. but who should lead? and until we have the ideal institutions, what should common people do?

    so go ahead and lead. we are following you.

    in other words, we won't be responsible for anything - you find a way out yourself.
     
  8. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    i would like to bring a few points to the brothers' attention:

    1. The fatwa where alahazrat ruled it permissible for women to work has 5 conditions attached which automatically ensure segregation or rather prevent intermingling/free-mixing. whereas the question posed to mufti sahib was about places where women in immoral clothing and with no inhibitions sit next to men and interact freely with them. the question is how far is it possible to avoid such interactions. mufti sahib had used the term 'najaeez', i do not know if he meant 'makruh' or 'haram'.

    the same fatwa was quoted by mufti akmal on qtv and also by mawlana ilyas qadri who also commented that it is very difficult to satisfy ALL the 5 conditions in the current scenario and advised that women should preferably pursue home based professions (and this is a very good example).

    how many female workers adhere to these stipulations in letter and spirit both? i don't know about the rest of the world but where i live i have many reports that the conditions in so-called muslim-run institutions where female teachers and students arrive burkha-clad are not very good either, then how much worse will it be where there is no notion of modesty or segregation to begin with? how can we expect to avoid 'fitnah' if young boys and girls (even if in burkha) share the same classroom and study the same syllabus, hasn't the western society proved to us that the outcome is always immorality and associated sins? Please note the word 'prevalent' in Mufti sahib's reply, he actually used the term 'murawwajah' and not ideal situations.

    further to this, alahazrat's fatwa applies to all situations where women work so household maids are not exempt either regardless of whether it was common in the past or not. But my question was regarding men working at such places and the reply was, i suppose, regarding that. Again, is it not that the shariah rules as per the majority, so if few people can keep themselves safe even in such environments but most can't how can a fatwa of jawaz be given?

    finally,there is a possibility that i didn't explain myself well and the reply could've been different.

    2. Mufti sahib has based his ruling on whether the muslim community is capable or not. So if it is not capable in countries such as pakistan and the gulf then where else will it be? Never in the past, to the best of my knowledge, has anyone ruled co-ed permissible, take for instance the following lines by dr. iqbal:

    " ladkiyan padh rahi hai angrezi taleem, dhudh li qaum ne falah ki rah!, ye drama kya scene dikhlaega, nigah parda uthne ki muntazir hai "

    " ye ahle kalisa ka nizam e taleem, ek sazish hai faqat deen o murawwat ke khilaf "

    so even back then, thinking muslims have scorned at the idea of co-ed, yet the community ignored everything and went ahead and established co-ed institutions and then we go back and tell the ulema that there is no other option so please give a fatwa of permissibility. please don't get me wrong, i am talking of collective responsibility and not about individuals because the reply was base on that.

    in this manner what is that which can't be ruled halal? we are saying that today our daily necessities cannot be met except by going against the clear nusoos of our deen, which is an absurd claim, with 57 'muslim' nations and 27% of world's resources.

    now the only objection to this could be that none of these resources or countries are under any control of those muslims who wish to follow the shariah in every matter and so it is only this section of muslims who will suffer so will this be counted as an uzr sharaee? this is for the ulema to decide and an excellent platform for this is the Ashrafiya Fiqhi Seminar, which is again presided by Mufti Nizamuddeen sahib!

    because if mufti sahib was applying the policy of 'blocking the means' then obviously he ain't going to tell me that but on a platform where ulema debate contemporary issues we can reach a definite conclusion.

    This is the reply to all those points raised by the brothers because no matter how many excuses we present it is only for the ulema to give the ruling.

    infact, a well-respected scholar who was present in the room when i had put the question to mufti mujeeb ashraf sahib, said later that no mufti will rule it permissible but leaving-off studies is not wise either.

    so the dilemma clearly exists. unless ulema come forward and list the for and against contentions and give a final, agreed-upon judgement we will have to sit on the fence. as for me, i am hunting with the fox and running with the hare!

    So far we have: mufti mujeeb ashraf, azhari miyan, mufti nizamuddeen, mawlana ilyas (may Allah keep them all) in the against camp, that's three darul-iftahs-cum-major seminaries!!

    while Allama Turab-ul-haq is in the for-camp as per bro AQ

    Allama Azmi and mawlana Shakir noori's positions are unknown to me.

    Now as the against-camp is simply continuing with the traditional position, its upon the for-camp to list their evidences and contentions and possibly a fatwa which can then be studied and commented upon by the other side.

    all this because, i had never given a thought to this issue until mawlana ilyas brought it up on madani channel, then as i went looking for the ruling i could not find a single one in favor of it.

    i sincerely request all brothers who are close to ulema to ask them regarding this issue or convince them to hold a major dialogue on it. because for those who don't care, life goes on as usual but those who are trying to avoid major sins (and the tawfiq is from Allah The Hadi) it becomes disheartening if all the major ulema, whom we look up to, deem us to be engrossed in sins.

    wassalaam
     
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    suppose a muslim boy wishes to avoid Haram and the ruling is: "working in mixed gender places is Haram".

    ---
    and the previous ruling that studying in co-ed is Haram, kept him away from school. so he doesn't have a college education.

    now he has the option of either working in urban or rural areas.

    already, urbanisation of economy has caused a huge impact on rural economies. most likely, he will have to move to a city for survival (unless he is already in a city).

    assuming he works in a city - it is either as a hired labourer (skilled or unskilled) or in a market selling stuff (because of lack of qualification to work elsewhere).

    sitting in a market where one has to witness all kinds of scenes; is it preferable to working in an office where you occasionally have to interact with a female worker* or a business where only males work but have to serve all kinds of female customers? so he will have to choose a business that does not attract female customers.

    not many options for halal income in our world (or at least earning a halal income without committing Haram).

    ---
    *even if one takes care not to interact, according to the fatwa, merely working in a mixed gender workplace is haram.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in other words, not just muslim girls, but all muslim boys should stop being accountants, engineers, doctors, computer professionals and stop pursuing any other halal profession requiring modern education.

    until of course, muslims build islamic institutions.

    which brings up the chicken-or-egg situation. see, we cannot build women-only colleges unless we have qualified women to teach them; and qualified women to teach girls cannot be had unless we have women-only colleges. and as this extends to men/boys as well - because most professional colleges are co-ed and going to co-ed is haram, we won't have professionals.

    obviously, we cannot expect every person to go to a madrasah and become a mufti - as the society needs various professions and it is against the nature of things for everybody to be only muftis and not do anything else. even the mufti requires clothes to be stitched, has to eat, gets sick and has to go to a doctor.

    ---
    in our times, when islam and islamic zeal for charity is at the lowest, what do we advise the huge number of sisters who are either orphans, widows and divorcees? so they cannot support themselves either - because of lack of education (of course, modern education - which is basically a skill).

    which brings up another thorny issue of muftis insisting on taking our women to female practitioners and stop complaining about even those females not being muslim. (no education = no muslim female nurse/midwife). for example, a female radiologist and a female gynecologist were found in only two different hospitals and both were expensive hospitals. but how many muslims can afford it? [this is a real life situation where the cost of going to general hospital and specialist hospital for a test was something like $1000]

    ---
    only retail business and agriculture is then left for the majority of people.

    ---
    we have further made working in organisations with female co-workers haram. which means, hospitals and all other services are out of bound for muslim employees.

    and because muslims will then be relegated to just local services and menial jobs there won't be much travel - and therefore, travelling in trains and planes becomes a luxury and thus the 'necessity' part of it will also be lifted. eventually, travelling in trains and planes will also become haram; unless of course, you do it in a male-only private jet.

    ---
    so men and women (na maHram that is) never worked together before in islamic societies? for example, large households employing servants would have man and maid servants. that was also haram - because a place where men and women work together is haram as a generic rule.

    100 years after alahazrat is a sea-change and the world has changed beyond recognition in merely the past 40-50 years; even things unchanged for thousands of years are gone or transformed.

    but still alahazrat did not say that it is haram for women to work with men. indeed, in a fatwa he permits a woman to work with na-maHram men if five conditions are met. and in today's world, all these five conditions can be met easily.

    check fatawa ridawiyyah 22/248.

    when it was permissible for women to work a hundred years ago, does it become haram for men to work in a totally changed world today, a hundred years later? and is it possible to escape interaction with women for anybody today except those who are detached from the world or those who can afford assistants to relieve them?

    ---
    sub'HanAllah. i am wondering how practical and workable is this? theoretically, everybody working in a mixed environment (if i understand well: where the source of income is itself permissible but going there haram due to female co-workers).

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     

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  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I once heard an audio answer by Shah Turabul Haq sahab on his website, where a girl from US had asked him that she wanted to study medicine, and he said that she was permitted to do it, and she should study a specialization that would enable her to help other sisters, like specializing in women's or children's problems, gynecology, etc.

    See if they still have the answer in their audio library - http://ahlesunnat.net/

    --------

    In these times and in these societies - would a person still be at error even though it is well known that the job seeker does not dictate the work environment, and at times he is desperate for a job?

    Does the sin only fall on the employer and the organizer or those who work as well?

    Is this ruling for Islamic country or western countries?

    The principle is no doubt known to all.

    What about 3udhr for times, places, circumstances?

    So what are the implications of what he said for Muslim men and women?

    Do we not attend universities, colleges, etc and learn trades in a country like India, UK, etc.?

    Even in places like Pakistan, UAE and so on, professional colleges don't always have segregation - due to shortage of qualified teachers. For example, many of the medical and dental faculties in Arab and Gulf nations are co-ed due to staff shortages!

    Even in Muslim countries like Pakistan, Morocco, Turkey and others, it's not always a matter of choice what university/college a student joins.
     
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Q: Is there any situation in which co-education could be permitted?
    A: If you ask for situations then yes, one can think of many, for example, when all the students are minors, or all are siblings etc. but if you ask regarding the co-education as prevalent these days then it is undoubtedly haram.

    Q: Then what is the difference between genders studying together in a class and travelling in a public transport, why is one prohibited and the other permissible?
    A: As per shariah, travel is permissible. now, every person cannot afford a personal transport and it is therefore a situation beyond ones capabilities. in light of this we say that this type of travel is allowed but in case of institutions, the responsibility, rather the duty, is not personal but collective and the muslim community is fully capable of establishing such institutions and there is no excuse to not do so, as such we say that co-ed is haram. We do not rule something permissible merely because everyone is doing it.

    Q: what about mixed gender workplaces where men and women work alongside, in full view of one another, though maybe not at the same desk?
    A: All such things are impermissible and those who indulge in these do not care for the rulings of the shariah. If you tell them the ruling they'll laugh at you or tell you to mind your own business.

    Q: would the income then be haram? A: No. the income will be halal.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I asked another alim about the basis for hurmat and he replied that the basis are all the ayahs and ahadith that enjoin gender segregation.

    wallahu a'lam bis sawaab
     
  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Bi-Hamdihi-taa'la, Mufti Nizamuddeen sahib (hafidhahullah) was in my city (unexpectedly) yesterday and by the grace of The Almighty i was able to pay him a visit where only a couple of well-wishers/schlolars were present !! I seized the opportunity, which was in the truest sense God-sent, and put to him all the above questions. In the next post i'll paraphrase, as best as i can, the questions and hazrat's replies.
     
  14. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    i know one case which was similar to this and Mufti Nizam sahib had given a different ruling but that case was very specific and so was the ruling.

    on the other hand he was asked regarding a particular seminary in shaam-al-shareef where a wahabi was appointed to teach a particular subject (non aqida), the student had asked the ruling on attending his duroos and Mufti Nizamuddin replied that it was impermissible and when the student requested him to find some condition of permissibility he replied,"even if you ask me a hundred times my answer will be the same. i've given the fatwa, now its upto you to find what you can do about it". While another south-indian scholar told the student to promptly pack his bags and come back!

    i don't know if the above ulema are giving the azima opinion regarding co-ed and if a rukhasa opinion exists. While those who are talking about the necessity of fard-al-kifaya are not addressing the isssue at all (to the best of my knowledge). seems like they are following a policy of 'don't ask don't tell'.

    but i feel that in one way the stricter ulema are being brave, telling the ruling as they see it. Muslims of the subcontinent have called the ulema enough names in the past 6 decades for them to want anymore accolades and scorn from the laymen who think that anything that puts the bread on their table must be permissible.
     
  15. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    unfortunately, we don't get to ask lengthy questions or seek detailed answers from senior scholars unless its a full-fledged fatwa and it wasn't possible for me to ask too many questions as i am neither a scholar nor a regular talib, so it would've come across as insubordination and argumentation.
     
  16. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Questioner:
    We study at co-ed institutions, please tell us how to guard our eyes

    Mawlana Ilyas Qadri (hafidhahullah):

    That's like saying we play in the puddle please tell us how to keep our clothes spotless! Ulema do not permit attending co-ed schools under any condition . . . . .
     
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i am mainly interested in the reason or the basis on which it is ruled haram.

    so it is haram. but what is the basis?
     
  18. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    i too have all those questions.

    i posted a question at DI's darul-iftah-ahl-e-sunnat and they replied that i had better pose the question to indian ulema.

    i posted a question at jamia nizamia fatwa link but didn't get a reply

    then i asked the same question at the darul-iftah at bareilly shareef and was given links to QA sessions by Huzoor Tajush-Shariah, Akhtar Rida Khan (hafidhahullah), but in those the questions were specifically about girls' going to co-ed schools in muslim-majority or non muslim countries and he replied that it was haram, he also further said that if getting an MBBS degree is conditional upon studying haram knowledge (didn't specify), then getting the degree would be haram too!

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Mufti Nizamuddeen sahib (hafidhahullah) is famous for his fatawa on contemporary issues, he is hailed as Muhaqqiq-e-masail-e-jadeeda, i would like to know his opinion on this. . . . . . . .
     
  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    so what is the basis for qaT'yi Haram?

    how about travelling in a plane or a bus with women?

    how about travelling in a train where there are women in the same compartment?

    how about visiting a hospital, getting admitted and staying there - where there are na maHram women?

    how about working in an organisation with na maHram women?

    what is the status of the income in which co-workers are women?
     
  20. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    i had a chance to meet mufti Mujeeb Ashraf Sahib(hafidhahullah), mufti-e-mahrashtra (a state in india), student of muft-e-azam-e-hind, a very senior scholar himself, and put this question to him, he replied that co-education is unequivocally haram, that no mufti would permit it and when i asked about the need to obtain fard-al-kifaya ilm he said that it's not even allowed for fard-al-ayn ilm.

    On the other hand, i attended a function of SDI's newly launched 'Intellectual Wing' and we had Allamah Qamaruzzaman Azami (hafidhahullah) and his son explaining the importance of technical knowledge and the need to get indian muslims well educated, in fact Allamah said that by 'knowledge' he meant that which enables a person to acquire new ideas by applying what he already knows i.e research and not just re-inventing the wheel.

    By Allah (The Exalted) 's grace DI is soon starting a branch of 'daar-ul-madinah', an islamic school system in Mumbai. May Allah (azzawajal) grant them success. And SDI already runs one at mahapoli but i don't know much about the syllabus, conditions there except that the students' uniform is traditional. We need more such institutions, especially for higher studies. Till then we remain, i feel, sinning?
     

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