Confusing text in Urdu Translation of Mustanad/Mutaqad

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by SaadSohail, Nov 22, 2019.

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  1. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    Thank you for the explanation brother Abu Hasan. It makes sense to me now.
     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i do not want to argue with such cookie-cutter answers/queries.

    you are trying to work with your limited knowledge of kalam gleaned from translations of basic texts and simple explanations of concepts given to beginners. if you want me to explain things that work only within the limited knowledge of basic texts, i am sorry.

    i have included sh.maqasid clips below. anyone with basic arabic reading skills (such as myself) can understand it. i have also admitted my inability to simplify it in a short time.

    here is more if you are willing to read - matalib al-aaliyah, imam razi, v3/p224 onward:

    matalibaliyah, v3p224.png


    ----
    now, given above are the imam's citation of the objections/problems; he follows up with answers but they are not plain objective one-liners. you will first require knowledge of philosophical problems posed for Divine Attributes and their answers. in other words, if you have not read the previous volume on ithbat of sifat and the arguments therein, with refutation of mutazili/philosophical standpoints, you will not understand this either.

    i have pleaded my inability to simplify it. i encourage you to take this as a starting point and work with it. if you are interested i can give you more references on this topic.

    ---
    in fact, imam razi says something similar to my point of having prior knowledge of things before delving into htis matter:
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  3. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member


    assalamu alaikum
    Jazak Allah brother Abu Hassan for your reply. The questions that I have come up with is:

    Question
    1) Do divine attributes Exist?
    Yes. Ofcourse.

    Are they they 1)Intrinsically necessary in existence?
    2) Intrinsically possible?

    There is no third alternative. This has got nothing to do with being at the beginner level.

    The definition of the word eternal or intrinsically necessary IS "It's existence is intrinsic to itself". (Wajib Dhati).
    Someone who denies that the attributes are intrinsically necessary in existence is bound to say they are intrinsically possible in existence. This is not extrapolation. I am not aware (haven't read) of any 4rd category (alternative) other than 1) Intrinsically necessary Wajib dhati, 2) Intriniscally possible (Imkan dhati) 3) Intrinsically impossible (Muhal dhati).

    Can you please shed some light on this 4th alternative which entails denial of intrinsically necessary existence of Attributes YET at the same time affirms that they are Eternal?
    Clearly the definiton of intrinsically necessary IS eternal. And we Know Allah and His attributes are ETERNAL.



    Divine Attributes do not exist by themselves - i.e. bi'dh dhat - as discrete entities; they exist as attributes of the Divine Essence, (dhat) - i.e. iqtiDaa of dhat.

    Let's break this down:
    1) Divine attributes donot exist by themselves i.e they are NOT intrinsically necessary (Bi'd Dhat).
    2) as discrete entities.
    3)They exist as attributes of Divine essense.

    I have problems with Premise 1) and Premise 2).
    Premise 1
    I have already highlighted my reservations for Premise 1. And that's not an extrapolation. I am clearly not aware of ANY category outside of intrinsically necessary, intrinsically possible and intrinsically impossible.
    Someone who denies that they are intrinsically necessary in existence IS BOUND TO SAY they are intrinsically possible in existence. I could see no other way of how they could come out of this paradox or could they affirm the attributes being Eternal yet not intrinsically necessary in existence?

    The rational absurdity is quite obvious: If someone Hold Attributes of Allah to be eternal yet at the same time denies they are intrinsically necessary in existence IS actually saying "They are Eternal and Not eternal at the same time".

    Moreover, how does Holding attibutes of Allah as intrinsically necessary/ eternal MAKES them discrete entities?
    Premise 2 contains a hidden premise i.e Allah is SEPERATE from His Attributes. This is the only way one could charge the claim that calling Attributes being intrinsically necessary in existence implies Multiplicity.

    IF BY PREMISE 1 you meant "Discrete entities" your contention holds TRUE BUT if you meant to deny attributes being intrinscially necessary in existence it DOESN'T.

    What i am trying to say is It is true That Attributes of Allah are NOT seperate from HIM (discrete entities). However, saying that they are intrinsically necessary in existence DOESNOT entail that they are seperate FROM HIM.

    But we have an answer to the hidden assumption i.e. "Allah’s attributes are not Him Himself nor are they other than Him."

    this explanation arises from the objections raised by philosophers and mutazilah and to appreciate fully you should read from the top.

    Can you please ILLUSTRATE how does claiming "Allah's Attributes being intrinsically necessary in existence i.e. ETERNAL and at the same time making it clear "Allah's attributes are not him Himself nor are they other than Him" leads to the problem of Multiplicity?

    I really want to know this.

    I will try reading and understanding the sources that you linked with a scholar.

    Jazak Allah.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    also see the wrap up of the discussion in the following excerpt. perhaps it is my inability to summarise, but i think it would be difficult to explain without bringing in the discussions/objections leading to this point.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is not a straightforward answer to your objection/doubt; but the answer is between the lines. see the pdf for the clippings (some from the pages are pasted as images below)

    vol.4, p.70:

    shmaqasid, v4p70.png




    pages 74-76:

    shmaqasid, v4p74-75.png

    shmaqasid, v4p76.png
     

    Attached Files:

  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    you must differentiate between a technical term and the linguistic meaning of the word.

    Divine Attributes do not exist by themselves - i.e. bi'dh dhat - as discrete entities; they exist as attributes of the Divine Essence, (dhat) - i.e. iqtiDaa of dhat.

    therefore, we say the Attributes and dhat, are not one and the same (which would result in denial of attributes - see shaykh abu adam's explanation below); and that Attributes are not separated from the dhat (existing as discrete entitites).

    Sifatullahi laysat ayna dhatin - wa la ghayran siwaahu dha'nfiSali

    ====
    that is a hasty extrapolation.

    Attributes of Allah are intrinsically necessary for His dhat - but they (i.e. Attributes) are not discrete entities in themselves to be called as 'intrinsically necessary existence'.

    ----
    it is necessary to make this distinction because, otherwise, the problem of ta'ddud al-wajib - multiplicity of wajib ensues; which is contradictory to tawHid.

    ----
    this is a technical discussion and you must understand that the basic definitions and descriptions you might have read in beginner texts are not sufficient. i am not trying to be patronising here, but trying to draw your attention to the slightly complex nature of the concept. this explanation arises from the objections raised by philosophers and mutazilah and to appreciate fully you should read from the top.

    i tried to translate relevant portions in the last few days, but abandoned mid-way; because hasty summarisation and translation may result in causing more confusion and raise more objections. a proper translation will take time and focus.

    ---
    in the meantime, if you wish you can read sharh al-maqaSid and imam razi's maTalib al-aaliyah (which is quoted anyway even in sh. al-maqaSid).

    see sharh al-maqaSid, 4/69 onward: "attributes are auxiliary to the essence" / الصفات زائدة على
    الذات


    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  7. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    I’d like to know a proper explanation of this as well.
     
  8. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    Can you please expand on the translation?

    Claiming attributes of Allah (swt) are not intrinsically necessary makes them intrinsically possible in existence. One can also not claim that they are Eternal BUT not intrinsically necessary in existence because that is a contradiction and rational absurdity.


    Existence of something could be either:

    1) Intrinsically necessary.
    2) Intrinsically possible.
    3) Intrinsically impossible.


    How can Attributes of Allah (swt) be Eternal if one Denies that they are intrinsically necessary in existence(Wajib Dhati)?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    arabic:
    mustanad, p28.png


    translation:
    mustanad urdu, p55.png
     
  10. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    To further clarify on what i am trying to convey:

    The translation (see snaps attached in the previous post) is trying to say that If the attributes are called intrinsically necessary then this would entail "Multiplicity". And multiple intrinsically necessary in existence is Impossible, therefore these attributes are NOT intrinsically necessary. They are only "necessary".

    The problem is two fold:

    1) First existence of something is either intrinsically necessary or intrinsically possible. There is NO third alternative.
    Denying that these attributes are intrinsically necessary makes them intrinsically possible in existence.

    Intrinsically necessary in existence means: the existence is intrinsic to it i.e. NOT dependent upon a cause. In other words existence is required by its very nature. This is the definiton of what being Eternal means i.e. without a beginning and without an end.


    Shaykh Abu Adam mentions this here:
    To clarify, we know that Aļļaah has a will, because He specified how creation is to be. Someone who believes this might claim that this will’s existence is intrinsically necessary in itself, or intrinsically possible in itself, there is no third alternative. What we believe is that its existence is necessary, and not merely possible, which means that Aļļaah’s Will is eternal and does not change.

    2)
    Claiming that Allah and His Attributes are Eternal and Intrinsically necessary DOES not lead to the problem of MULTIPLICITY.

    Why?
    Because it is our belief that Allah's Attributes ARE NOT HIM AND NIETHER THEY ARE OTHER THAN HIM.

    Shaykh Abu Adam
    mentions this here:

    The meaning of the phrase is that Allah’s attributes are not Him Himself nor are they other than Him, i.e. you cannot say that “Allah is Power,” or “is Knowledge.” Rather we say that Allah is attributed with power and attributed with knowledge. You also do not say that they are other than Him, because they are not separate from Him, because He is one in the absolute sense and not something divisible, or “many”. Rather we say that Allah is One, and that He has attributes that are not other than Him. This is unlike humans, for their attributes are separable. For example, if I lost all of my knowledge, I would still exist. This is not true of Allah, because what has no knowledge is not God. The purpose of this phrase is to refute the accusation of the Mu`tazilah that to say that Allah has attributes is to say that Allah is many. The Mu`tazilah did not accuse Ibn Kullab of being pseudo-Christian for saying “Allah’s attributes are not Him Himself nor are they other than Him” but for saying that Allah has attributes. They accused anyone who says that Allah has attributes, such as knowledge, to be a musħrik. Is it peculiar to sunni Kalam scholars to say that Allah has attributes??? To this accusation Ibn Kullaab answered that saying that Allah has attributes does not mean that Allah is many, rather “we say that Allah’s attributes are not Him Himself nor are they other than Him.”
     
  11. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    Assalamu alaikum brothers,

    While reading this great work, i came across a footnote on page 54-55 of Urdu translation of this book; (Foot note number #50). I found it quite confusing because I have been taught that it is the belief of Ahlus Sunnah that Allah and His Attributes are Intrinsically necessary (Wajib Dhati) in existence.

    I am attaching a snap of the relevant footnote:


    However, the translation (probably it is a mistype or a slip??) seem to be negating intrinsic necessity (Wajib Dhati) of Attributes (Sifat).

    Can some of the knowledgeable brothers shed some light on this?

    Jazak Allah.
     

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