Coronavirus and jumu'ah

Discussion in 'Tasawwuf / Adab / Akhlaq' started by Aqdas, Mar 14, 2020.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Mufti Abdun Nabi Hamidi sahib's FatwA. He's translated Kanzul Iman into English afaik.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is wajib when there is no hindrance.

    jazakAllah khayran.
     
  3. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Active Member



    The ibarat from Badai al Sanai quoted by Mufti Rafiq ul hasani sahib دامت بركاتهم العليه is [1] بدائع الصنائع – المكتبة الشاملة (1/ 384) فصل : في بيان من تجب عليه الجماعة و أما بيان من تجب عليه الجماعة فالجماعة إنما تجب على الرجال العاقلين الأحرار القادرين عليها من غير حرج فلا تجب على النساء و الصبيان و المجانين و العبيد و المقعد و مقطوع اليد و الرجل من خلاف و الشيخ الكبير الذي لا يقدر على المشي و المريض (in some nuskas 1:155)

    This is also in other books as ‎ (فتسن أو تجب) ثمرته تظهر في الإثم بتركها مرة (على الرجال العقلاء البالغين الأحرار القادرين على الصلاة بالجماعة من غير حرج)

    See Fatawa Hindiyya kitab al salat bab al imamah 1:91 (Dar al Kutub al Ilmiyya)

    Radd al muhtar, kitab al salat, bab shurut al salah, 2:290 (dar al alam al kutub)
    Binayah fi sharh al hidayah, bab al imamah, 2:381 (dar al fikr) Badai as sanai (1:155)

    Binayah mentions in full: البناية شرح الهداية (2/ 324) وفي " التحفة ": الجماعة إنما تجب على من قدر عليها من غير حرج وتسقط بالعذر حتى لا تجب على المريض والأعمى والزمن ونحوهم هذا إذا لم يجد الأعمى قائدا، والزمن من يحمله، وكذا إذا وجد عند أبي حنيفة، وعندهما تجب، قال محمد: لا تجب الجمعة ولا الجماعة على المريض، والمقعد، والزمن والأعمى، ومقطوع اليد والرجل من خلاف أو مقطوع الرجل، والمقطوع الرجل، والمفلوج الذي لا يستطيع المشي وإن لم يكن به ألم، والشيخ الكبير العاجز

    Shami also mentions ‎(قوله ولو فاتته ندب طلبها) فلا يجب عليه الطلب في المساجد بلا خلاف بين أصحابنا، بل إن أتى مسجدا للجماعة آخر فحسن، وإن صلى في مسجد حيه منفردا فحسن. وذكر القدوري: يجمع بأهله ويصلي بهم، يعني وينال ثواب الجماعة كذا في الفتح ‎واعترض الشرنبلالي بأن هذا ينافي وجوب الجماعة. وأجاب ح بأن الوجوب عند عدم الحرج، وفي تتبعها في الأماكن القاصية حرج

    Same as the ibarat quoted by Sh. Abu Hasan from Bahare Shariat




     
  4. Salaam. There are among us some who are not displaying symptoms and are probably infecting people, some of who may die because of it (pretty remote but possible nonetheless). fyi
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the concept of 'adwaa' or 'udh kar lagna' or disease being transmitted from one to another up until alahazrat's time is NOT the same as bacterial/viral infection that WE NOW KNOW. hence it would be unfair to judge the opinions of ulama who did not have access to this information and at the same time, negligence on our part to continue to look the other way and refuse to harmonise the information

    here is a short vid on the bubonic plague. notice a passing mention of the belief that disease 'jumped' from person to person. THAT is adwa. no one gets a headache by sitting next to a person with a headache. or a diabetic or a heart patient.

     
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    me too. the usual suspects who stand to gain from any such machinations are losing badly. markets are down, every sector is losing money big time. only big-pharma MAY make some money if there is a vaccination/medicine developed, but that won't explain the current mess.

    as you have noted, gates has been warning since 2010. it is not surprising because his foundation has invested in it and obviously will have access to cutting-edge research.

    ---
    it is moot point.

    personally, i think that the threat is real going by what's happening in italy, germany and france. and iran. the US and the UK. china. south korea. hey, wait. what about russia. why are there very few cases? my point is that if only a few thousands would die or if it were not that contagious, countries would not lockdown at a war footing. nor would countries like US allow losses of billions.

    all theories of how bad it is (or perhaps not) will be tested in the coming weeks - when large, diverse populations like US and india (incidentally both led by megalomaniacal morons who wasted valuable time) will enter the (forecasted) critical phase. hear an expert predict a tsunami for india.

    that has already happened. the world will not be the same again. the way we work, interact, take globe-trotting for granted. the world will never be the same.

    but first, let this storm blow over.
     
  12. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    sidi abu hasan,
    thanking you for your rational explanation.

    Unfortunately many started attacking our scholars and giving ammunition to other groups.

    for example

    this guy Dar al-hadith
    supposedly barelwi who runs the website dar al-hadith mocks by his post on facebook


    Yesterday at 1:36 AM
    Interesting times:

    *Ramadan*
    Barelvis: the science is clear! The moon could not have been sighted. We cannot follow your sighting.
    Salafis: science can be wrong, Allah is Powerful over all things.

    *Covid19*
    Barelvis: forget science! where is your Tawhid and reliance in God? We will keep the mosques open.
    Salafis: the science is clear about the dangers of the virus, we trust these scientists and will be closing mosques
    https://www.facebook.com/edits/?cid=10216206879301468

    another guy who posts by the name of Qalandar Tabrizi - Hatem Awni Sect
    has been posting crazy things and someone sidi Aqdas posts are being shared everywhere on the groups.

    @sherkhan
    very interesting post

    free masons having a ride on the general public ?
     
  13. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I don't buy any conspiracy theory angle (even though US & China have been openly pointing fingers at each other); notwithstanding Dean Koontz's "The Eyes of Darkness" shot in dark. It's pandemic that was waiting to happen.

    Bill Gates had been warning about it for long (and some conspiracy theorists have unfairly blamed Gates foundation for this outbreak). I would highly recommend everyone here to watch Gates' 2015 TED talk (if you haven't already).

    Chinese researchers (Zheng-Li Shi et al) have been predicting this eventuality for quite some time. Only 8 months back, China was busy censuring Ai Fen's early warnings on WeChat.

    For all you conspiracy theorists, I just discovered a 2013 report accusing China of developing a new virus strain (and more here and here). A new grist for conspiracy theory mill! As late as in October 2019, John Hopkins Univ researchers were busy modelling the scale of next pandemic impact (and guess what, this exercise was sponsored by Gates Foundation!).


    A timely article in BBC on whether experts are over-estimating the threat (and over-counting Covid-19 related deaths) to the elderly who are anyway susceptible to seasonal spikes in mortality rate. As mentioned in my earlier post, pandemic deaths are being conflated with deaths that would have occurred any way during the normal course of event.


    I am not downplaying the risk to the elderly and the vulnerable (including the health workers). If I had someone vulnerable/at-risk in family, my precautions would be more heightened.

    But I think the panic, lockdowns, mass quarantine etc. are not proportionate to the risk posed by Covid-19. As it happens, this is the first pandemic with real-time update, round-the-clock flash news, fueled by genie out of social media bottle. If mass hysteria is not contained, then similar pandemics in near future will lead people to edge and cause an anthropological shift of seismic proportions.
     
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    same argument of mufti nizamuddin sahib. the point is if this has not happened before - does not mean we cannot examine if it cannot be done at all.

    firstly, to assure you: i have read alahazrat's risalah once again and the latest was a few days ago. i have been looking up all the instances and dozens of commentaries related to this hadith - the many routes, the various wordings etc.

    is it qaT'yi? alahazrat's risalah itself starts with the acknowledgement that there are conflicting reports in this matter (albeit according to alahazrat, the conflict is superficial) and proceeds to prove the position he prefers. in fact, in the risalah (al-Haqq al-mujtala) alahazrat himself cites hadith commentators like ali al-qari who prefers the position that some diseases are infectious and proximity causes spread of disease (this is a summarisation - not verbatim. please note)

    the hadith is clearly open for interpretation and imam ibn hajar cites six different opinions on this issue. among which is spread of disease is possible.

    when this be the case, and the issue at hand is of serious disease and even death, one should take a position even if one has to err on the side of caution. particularly when giants among hadith scholars have differed upon it.

    ----
    aside: toorpushti is allamah abu abdullah faDlullah ibn al-Hasan ibn al-Husayn al-turpushti al-Hanafi. (d.661 AH) a contemporary of imam nawawi (d.676 AH). turpusht was in the province of shiraz. (is it turan-posht?). zabidi says that it is turbisht (with kasrah on baa. توربشت). author of the commentary on masabih al-sunnah of imam baghawi named "al-muyassar".

    ----
    mirqat al-mafatih:

    mirqat v8 p393.png

    the second opinion is that there is no evidence in this hadith to comprehensively reject that contagion is possible. toor-pushti said: " in my opinion the second opinion is a better explanation of the two (awla al-tawilayn) because it seeks to reconcile the hadith, whereas the first one suspends the principles of medicine. and the shariah does not negate it, rather it has been narrated that the shariah attests medical advice and rely upon (medicine) in the manner we have mentioned. [approximate translation]

    for those who wish to read turpushti's comments, see hadith #3542 (p.1010 in the available PDF editions).

    ----
    of course, alahazrat refutes this based on the knowledge available in his time. in sha'Allah wa bi tawfiqihi we will see more details in the paper i am working on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
    sherkhan likes this.
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    apologies brother i do not want to sound condescending, but this is a major shortcoming affecting our community as a whole and particularly sunnis. we are content with summary judgements and are unwilling to think nor adapt to our times. nor are we interested in examining the hadith that are cited as proof.

    as for rational inquiry and reasoning - most have either abandoned it altogether or do not give it sufficient importance. what else explains poor reasoning that is rife in intellectual discourse?

    ---
    "level of iman that they would rather attend the masjid and die"

    sounds very noble and pious. but remember that ulama who were far more pious and righteous than we can hope to be and had better understanding of the shariah listed out cases that merit exemption from jama'ah. let's take bahar e shariat, for example:

    bes v1p584.png




    extreme cold, storm, torrential rain, mud, slush or sleet etc.

    ALSO:

    - fear that one's food or property could be damaged, stolen, hurt etc.

    - a poor man in debt who cannot repay his debt and fears that the lender will accost him

    - fear of a tyrant (or in general someone who can hurt him - say a mafioso or a local goon)

    - fear that the caravan will leave (in our times, that one may miss their flight or train)

    of course, this is for the individuals and does not mean shut down mosques. i understand that. my point is that in the present circumstance it is not wise to go to gatherings. as for shutting down mosques completely that is a different issue/argument. perhaps we could have a functional jama'at of few people who take precautions and maintain the jama'at while the rest pray at homes.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    imho shaykh asrar's bravado was uncalled for and very unwise. particularly for a scholar and an otherwise sensible person like him. one does not have to justify or satisfy every challenge. personally, i do not like getting into such arguments/derring-do.

    just because the woman said "drink poison and eat a date", shaykh asrar just got up and drank it. for what? in fact, his argument that "x thing in the bible says 1,2,3" then do believe in it LITERALLY is a non-starter. the same can be demanded of us - and we point to many things that are figurative. regardless, it was a weak argument.

    -----
    one should always be mindful of the Power and Plan of Allah. people may say that it is about faith. but are you sure that it is the correct interpretation? that is what the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam intended?

    take this 'hadith' oft-quoted by people:
    at best it is a rewording and understood by implication.

    imam sakhawi says in al-maqasid al-hasanah:

    maqasid, 534.png


    summary: "reeq al-mu'min shifa" or "su'ur al-mum'n shifa" can be understood in the light of the authentic hadith in sahihayn: "bismillahi turbatu arDina bi riqati ba'Dina yushfa saqimuna bi idhni rabbina" / in the name of Allah, the dust of our earth and the saliva of one amongst us, the sick among us will be cured by the permission of Allah.

    hadith #5745 of bukhari. imam ibn hajar mentions that imam nawawi said that 'turbatu arDina' means the dust of madinah. and the saliva of one amongst us means "the saliva of the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam" which is special unlike any of us. though ibn hajar reserved his judgement on this opinion.

    the point is: it is NOT absolute. and the claim that 'saliva of mu'min is cure' is at best a weak narration and cited in faDa'il. you cannot discard sensible advice based on 'faith' upon this statement.

    ---
    in other words:
    ---
     
  17. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    I think they should consider the fiqh not act on a single Hadith without considering all the evidence
     
  18. faqir

    faqir Veteran

  19. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    disclaimer: i apologise to brothers if my post sounds like a refutation or the like. am just presenting counter arguments.
    ================================================================


    the one day lockdown modi has announced for tomorrow, 22nd is widely believed to be a dry run for an impending two-month lockdown. these beasts have no humanity and don't care if people die - they actually take satisfaction in killing people.

    ---
    anecdotal evidence or an exception is not enough to build a theory nor prove your point.

    imam muslim is supposed to have died because of eating a big bowl of dates while researching a hadith - perhaps he had diabetes and dates aggravated his condition. will that lead us to a generalisation: "eating dates will kill you"?

    ---
    you are arguing for and against.

    every muslim should have firm faith in the qur'anic injunction:

    s9v51.png

    nothing will befall us except that which Allah ta'ala has ordained for us. yet at the same time, we must not present ourselves to danger claiming trust (tawakkul) (baqarah, 2:195):


    s2v195a.png
    do not put your lives in danger by your own doing.

    alahazrat explains: [FR v24/p308]

    FR v24p308.png


    "important note: just as it is impermissible to flee from a plague-hit town/city, it is also impermissible and a sin to enter such a place. there are hadith which explicitly forbid both actions. because in the first one is attempting to flee from the Divine Decree and in the second, one wants to (deliberately) fight (or face) an affliction, a trial imposed by Divine Decree.

    and to present the excuse of 'exhibiting trust' [in Allah] is utter stupidity. Trust in Providence [tawakkul] is not the name of abandoning means"
     
    sherkhan likes this.
  20. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed New Member

    My points are specifically regarding congregating in the Masajid. The houses of Allah. A place where people would congregrate in the past whenever such outbreaks and plagues would occur, and plead to Allah for His mercy and forgiveness. If one has examples of Masajid being vacated to due outbreaks/plagues, in the past, please share.

    On the other hand, I have heard numerous accounts of people running to Allah in such times rather then hiding themselves in their houses.
    Once again, just my personal opinion, and I could possibly be 100% misunderstanding the whole scenario.
     

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