Coronavirus and jumu'ah

Discussion in 'Tasawwuf / Adab / Akhlaq' started by Aqdas, Mar 14, 2020.

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  1. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed New Member


    So if many of the elderly and (young) firmly believe in "La Adwa" and they act upon it, would they be considered unintelligent? They may or may not get the disease. But are they to blame for firmly believing in this hadith?
     
  2. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed New Member

    If I were to guess, based on my own personal opinion, I would say no one, if they both firmly believe in "La Adwa."
     
  3. And if the elderly man who would rather die of the virus than miss Congregational Prayer infected another elderly man who wanted to live longer to do more good then who carries the main burden of responsibility?
     
  4. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    because people are not intelligent to make the correct decision. many of our 'elderly' (it is not just a disease of the elderly by the way!) live with their extended families anyway so if the young catch the virus in large congregations they will just get it from them. you can read congregational salah at home. i can tell you from personal experience things are getting worse by the day. ITU's are starting to fill up and the NHS will be overflowing with COVID patients unless drastic measures are taken.... you only need look at what has already happened in China and Italy.
     
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    lots of things, lot of mixed thoughts, lots of responses, lot of emotions, etc.

    all natural in a time of crisis

    some of my random bullet points (for myself, in no particular order, and also addressed by others on here)

    - this crisis may be natural or a part of covert or overt bio warfare (man made)
    - either way, we as Muslims and common folk need to deal with it in terms of precautions and treatments
    - reasons for considering conspiracies - timing is major - see the oil prices and markets, international military exercises in wuhan a mere few weeks before this, almost looks like the economical giants (countries and corporations) are working in unison to control and exploit this situation to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, to destroy small business as best as possible, leverage the situation for political gain and control, the world is in no mood for actual war right now, so the powers that be need another control mechanism at this point in time
    - indian government is lying about the numbers, tons of poor people die daily for n number of reasons, covid-19 is/will be just one of them. the only way indian numbers would explode and be noticeable realistically is if enough middle class people get it
    - are things blown out of proportion in regards to quarantine and safety measures and flattening the curve? next 8-10 weeks and the data available then will make it clear. it will also make it clear in hindsight if the decisions taken now on many Islamic matters were right or not
    - ebola was not the white west's problem as rightly pointed out. it was also out of sight for all or most Muslims. this is different in terms of the sphere of influence

    you have actual nass of the Quran regarding Sayyidina Ibrahim (3alaihis salam) sitting in the fire. why not try that too?

    what about the Prophet's (3alaihis salam) companions consuming poisoned meat (without knowing) and passing away? is Asrar Rashid's status/knowledge higher than them?

    i saw that video actually and thought the other guys were bluffing or something, and Asrar Rashid merrily called their bluff, effectively giving them the birdie. even if he did drink real rat poison, it doesn't mean anything.

    sorry, and this isn't your fault, but your arguments are the result of our "educational" culture of not focusing on the main priorities of the Shariah and its various branches of knowledge and fiqh, but rather the desi Sunni culture of living in a world full of emotional speeches, fazail, naatkhwani and karaamaat - ironically, something which shaykh Asrar Rashid tries his best to undo
     
  6. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed New Member

    No doubt, what you are saying is 100% correct. And what brother Abu Hasan is saying absolutely makes sense and there is no disagreement regarding the points raised.

    The question is, does one leave the masjid open, and then advise everyone, especially the elderly to be cautious and avoid attending the masjid if they feel that they are at risk? In other words, leave the choice to the people, including the elderly whether they wish to attend or not? Perhaps some of the elderly are at the level of Iman that they would rather attend the masjid and die because of such an attendance rather than stay home due to a virus (that is under Allah's control) and risk missing the congregation salah. In other words, missing congregational salah is more difficult on them than dying from a virus, for example.
     
  7. حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْحَمِيدِ بْنُ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي الْعِشْرِينَ، حَدَّثَنَا الأَوْزَاعِيُّ، عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ أَبِي رَبَاحٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ، يُخْبِرُ أَنَّ رَجُلاً، أَصَابَهُ جُرْحٌ فِي رَأْسِهِ عَلَى عَهْدِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ثُمَّ أَصَابَهُ احْتِلاَمٌ فَأُمِرَ بِالاِغْتِسَالِ فَاغْتَسَلَ فَكُزَّ فَمَاتَ فَبَلَغَ ذَلِكَ النَّبِيَّ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ قَتَلُوهُ قَتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَفَلَمْ يَكُنْ شِفَاءَ الْعِيِّ السُّؤَالُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ عَطَاءٌ وَبَلَغَنَا أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ قَالَ ‏"‏ لَوْ غَسَلَ جَسَدَهُ وَتَرَكَ رَأْسَهُ حَيْثُ أَصَابَهُ الْجِرَاحُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

    It was narrated that 'Ata' bin Abu Rabah said:

    "I heard Ibn 'Abbas saying that a man was injured in the head at the time of the Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu Aihi wa Sallim), then he had a wet dream. He was told to have a bath, so he took the bath, became rigid and stiff, and died. News of that reached the Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu Aihi wa Sallim) and he said: 'They have killed him, may Allah kill them! Is not the cure for a lack of knowledge to ask questions?'"'Ata' said: "We heard that the Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu Aihi wa Sallim) said: 'If only he had washed his body and left his head alone where the wound was.'"


    Grade Sahih-Ibn Majah

    Salaam. Those who want to keep the Masajid open might want to reflect on the Hadith and see how it might apply to the discussion. You see, there is a scenario that you carry the infection without knowing and having prayed next to an elderly man with a heart condition you end up killing him. Then it would mean "you killed him". Now do you understand the points Shaykh Abu Hasan is making? As far as I can see, this Religion has so much Mercy that even if the chance of death was 0.0001% but still present there would be a dispensation to save life.
     
  8. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    sidi abu hasan,

    shaykh asrar rashid drank rat poison if we were to take asbab why did shaykh asrar drink rat poison? because he was following the hadith, similar if someone diabetic eata honey because of honey, what is wrong with it?

    why is it ok not to take asbab for rat poison but ok for covid 19 coronavirus, i have posted this question to shaykh asrar but don't know if he read it or if his students passed him my question.

    you can see shaykh asrar's video on youtube regarding rat poison.
     
  9. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed New Member


    Regarding honey: I personally know a practicing medical doctor (muslim, naqshbandi) who was asked by a diabetic patient whether honey would be a cure as is stated in the ahadith. The doctor responded, "according to science no, according to Islam and the Sunnah yes." He then went on to mention a story about a man in egypt who had diabetes and upon hearing that honey had shifaa as per the ahadith, he drank/ate a whole bowl of honey, and he ended up getting cured.

    So i guess it comes down to the level of iman of the individual, as Ala Hazrat mentioned, regarding the ahadith that prevent people from mixing with those that are infected. And this varies from individual to individual. But on a collective level, perhaps its wise to focus on presenting the rukhsah opinions.

    So those whose iman is at that level that they are confident enough to know that even if they were to hypothetically happen to mix with those infected, for whatever reason, and they do get infected, then they can accept it as divine will. And for those who do have the fear of getting infected due to mixing with people, then they should take extra precautions.

    Obviously, i dont mean jump in front of a speeding car, relying on divine will to save one.
     
  10. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    that is beside the point (and has been circumvented using other assumptions).

    Things could easily get worse from here as the curve plays it out in different countries. One saving grace for subcontinent is the approaching warm weather which may significantly slow down virus spread.

    but it is still not bad enough, in my opininon, to close down masajids without an end in sight (while public transport, shops etc. are still operational, albeit well below the regular level)
     
  11. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Active Member

    A lock down in India/Pakistan is almost impossible unless they actually impose curfews. We can only pray!
     
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is a wait game. let us see how the coming two weeks toll in the subcontinent. given the near non-existent public health infrastructure of third world countries and the inevitable interaction of too many people - all the theories will be tested.

    ---
    we pray for aafiyah.
     
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    according to alahazrat and other hanafi jurists, there is no juma in the west. that was the opinion of tajush shariah as well. and that is the fatwa of the late mufti abdul wajid in his fatawa europe. just sayin'.

    ---
    fatawa ridawiyyah, v8 p.379

    FR v8p379.png


    ----
    fatawa europe p183-184

    ftw europe, p183.png



    p184

    ftw europe p184.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
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  14. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    let's do some quick maths.

    Lombardy, the worst-hit Italian province, has population of ~ 10 million
    23% of these are aged 65+ (higher than European and significantly more than the global average); i.e. 2.3 million

    as of date, 2,550 covid-19 deaths have been reported in Lombardy
    which works to 0.11% death rate

    since this occurred over 4 weeks, we can annualise the death rate to 1.44%. For that segment of population, this mortality rate is not alarming or statistically significant deviation from the normal. Mind you, winter deaths (that too mainly from respiratory complications, and we can count covid as a new factor) are anyway significantly higher among the elderly (the UK data being the case in point).

    So why are alarm bells ringing (for 'whom the bell tolls' anyway for one reason or the other)? Just because a new, uncertain (less understood) danger is at white man's doorstep?

    Calamities/punishments are great levellers; with weevils, wheat grains also get crushed. For sure, Muslims too will die when afflicted with coronavirus. It's hard to imagine any different level of immunity (besides the fact that practising Muslims will less likely be contaminating). Plagues of past didn't spare Muslims.


    Will shuttering the masajids ensure that Muslims escape the pandemic deaths? Rational approach should be to allow non-elderly, non-vulnerable to carry on as usual with congregational prayers (with all necessary precautions).

    But rationality is the first casualty in times of panic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  15. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran


    We belong to the time of namby pamby, squeamish, near end-of-time generation, which panics at the first sight of a scare. Covid-19 happens to be the first pandemic of truly interconnected world, a world ruled by whatsapp/tiktok/whatnot and "optics" (like that mass-murderer Modi enforcing "janata curfew" and promoting pot banging, while other leaders are busy doling trillion-dollar fiscal stimulus).

    I am being an 'Elon Musk' here to stick my neck out and say that the current hysteria is over-played/unfounded. This pandemic (although more contagious) is nowhere as indiscriminate as Ebola with 60% mortality rate (but that was a dark continent's problem) or any where close to being a mass annihilator as bubonic plague of yester years.

    Yes, precaution, alertness and hygiene maintenance is the need of the hour (just as it is for donning a seat belt or helmet). When did any of the 'obscurantist' ulemas advice against it anyway? But mass quarantine?

    It's easier for authorities to order indiscriminate lockdown (and prescribe the healthy and the vulnerable the same 'treatment') than to aggressively sift the infected from the non-infected. Play-safe, "prepare for the worst" etc. are new liberal age mantras (those in west can identify with 'health and safety' culture gone mad).

    Why bother rigorously testing all, when it is far easier (and cheaper and reputationally safer) to quarantine all and sundry? And how to force everyone into a submissive, self-supervised lockdown, other than to magnify the risk and trigger a hysteria?

    I don't buy the argument to shutdown masajids yet. I am personally inclined to believe that the rukhsah for missing jumuah jamaat doesn't yet exist.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  16. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    but then severe cold and rain and walking through mud too are not the same as facing a fully armed enemy in jihad

    and yet:

    https://sunnah.com/abudawud/2/673
    https://sunnah.com/muslim/6/35
    you can accuse me of being a closet wahabi, but what exactly would you say in regards to the narrations above and Ibn Abbas' (radi Allahu 3anhu) ijtehad?

    you can read the Arabic on the links given, and see if their translation is valid or not.

    Abu Hasan is spot on in regards to our scholars being complacent in ijtihad and not putting their thinking caps on!!

    i've even seen brothers complaining of shortening the gatherings of Mi3raj and Qaseedah Burdah Shareef. seriously? why want a mehfil for it? why not learn to actually read the entire Burdah yourself at home and teach to your kids too other than the typical formulaic shola bayan + naatkhwani (with money showred many places) + langar + socializing like a wedding.

    how about quarantine yourself and read the sharh of the Burdah to your family?

    Allah help us.
     
  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it is sad that our community leaders are failing in their duty. the below video and mufti sahib's reasoning is so poor in various arguments. as i told a friend last night, salafis who are notorious literalists are doing qiyas and the people who follow madh'hab, whose books of usul are full of examples stick to the literal and refuse to do qiyas. sub'HanAllah.

    either we should stop doing any qiyas and ijtihad absolutely or if we can do it for myriad things, why should we not do it for cases where a grave threat for life exists?

    what happened to the principles of 'rukhsah'?

    ---
    from an emotional viewpoint - i too feel that we should not shut down the mosques and i have a depressing feeling and lingering sadness for the whole of last week. however, we need to think and take hard decisions.

    ---
    comparing apples and oranges. jama'at is wajib in our madh'hab and sunnah in others; however there is a very big clause of PLAUSIBLE EXCUSE that everyone seems to ignore willfully.

    due to the coronavirus scare. it is deemed highly contagious and people have been REALLY dying in italy and china.

    same goes for seat belts. same goes for any high-risk activity. in the end we will all be dead. no argument about it. but the question we should be asking is, does the shariah ignore any threat to limb and life and encourage you to be daring and present yourself to danger?

    the plausible fear of loss of limb and life is a valid excuse for n-number of things. instead emotional reaction, should we not see how and if these principles of fiqh can be adopted in present scenarios? wAllahu'l musta'an.

    ---

    didn't read the article. but it is commonly accepted that the virus spreads by close contact. and the cases from korea and malaysia clearly point towards gatherings. of course, we can call it a jewish conspiracy to stop muslims from going to prayer.

    check the case of patient#31.

    in all other circumstances. not there is a fear of infection or getting infected.

    "there is no such thing as infection"

    "alahazrat has written a 70page monograph (al-Haqq al-Mujtala) that debunks the theory of infectious diseases"

    "oh yes indeed. there is a hadith (again read the monograph above) that clearly says: "laa adwa" which is commonly translated as 'there is no such thing as contagion'."

    while alahazrat raHimahullah was correct in his time and according to the information available at that time, it may not be correct according to the information available in our age. in sha'Allah, wa bi tawfiqihi, an analysis of the risalah and the hadith will be presented given the conditions.

    ---
    so we must advise diabetes patients to eat loads of honey. because there is shifa in honey.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  18. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Active Member

    Even during jihad prayer has been established and that too in groups in congregation (though the method is slightly different). I do not understand why masjids are shutting down altogether until further notice owing to the coronavirus scare. This pandemic in any case cannot be more deadly than facing the enemy on the battlefield.

    Most UK masjids have shut down until further notice. Remember the UK government has not even forced a closure upon any masjid and all are doing so just as a precaution.
     
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  19. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed New Member

    Whoever was meant to die was going to die regardless, whether it was due to Coronavirus or any other means. The brother posting the article is not exactly doing the best dawah of Islam by showing that Islam's "congregational nature" is a "weakness" for Muslims and Islam. Eating from the same plate is from the Sunnah. The Prophet (Salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam) also mentioned that the saliva of a believer is Shifaa' for his brother. IMO, these types of articles are just another attempt at trying to weaken the Iman of Muslims, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
     
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  20. faqir

    faqir Veteran

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