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Discussion in 'Syllabus, Curriculum, Reading Lists' started by Juwayni, Apr 13, 2019.
Fulfilling an extremely important need over the internet
If anyone ever needs to study the evolution of a true jamia, they should study how Jamiatul Ashrafiya Mubarakpur was formed by Hafiz-e-Millat. I know that Muhadith-e-Kabir has given an excellent explanation on this which I heard some years ago. If someone has the recording, I kindly ask them to upload it.
Dars-e Nizami is unknown to majority of the Sunnis from the SubContinent. They might have heard the name, but they don't know what it is.
recently, Professor Suhrawardi visited the blessed Da' wate Islami Jami' a in Pakistan on a special visit from North America. The visit was relayed on Madani Channel. Jamiat ul Madina conducting extensive Dars e Nizami Courses.
Abwaab alSarf is a very practical book for students and the same with all the books I have listed for sarf. Abwaab alSarf makes life easy for the teacher and student. It is user friendly for students, especially the new Jamia' Nizamiya edition which has done away with the unnecessary things and has the tables clearly which facillitate reading.
My final comment will sum up the whole subject and even why some graduates cannot read etc:
The classes sizes need to be reduced. Class sizes in the madaaris is what needs reducing and not the syllabus. Wherever the class sizes are less the students are more competent. That alone is the sole problem. Thats my opinion and the opinion of my teacher who is an experienced person.
Where can I buy these books? Online would be better but anywhere will do.
true. my late teacher - raHimahullah - would say that the siyagh (gardaan for the urdu speaking) should be memorised and internalised such that, even if one is roused from deep sleep and queried, one should be able to rattle off the fa'ala fa'alaa fa'aluu...
i just wanted to mention that i did not suggest memorisation be ignored; in fact, the old practice of memorising mutun has many benefits. they are like memorising multiplication tables; of course, you can compute them - but knowing them in your head is an optimised way of doing things. for example, those who work on computers - can hunt and peck; but knowing touch typing saves a lot of pain in the neck.
I think both KattarSunni and Abu Hasan have made some excellent points.
I seem to remember reading on a salafi saudi forum how studying Usul was so hard - and this is due to them being unfamiliar with the terminologies of the mutakallimun (they don't have an 'ilm al-kalam - only half-baked, incoherent refutations). I do think KS has a good point here. At the same time, I don't think mantiq needs to be studied in the depth that it is done in the Dars i Nizami curriculum at the moment.
The speciality of many arab institutions lie in their hadith (usul al-hadith), and their equiping the serious specialist student with the tools for understanding gradings of ahadith, and perhaps grade them himself. However, their weakness - as I mentioned - is in their 'Ilm al-Kalam and Usul al-Fiqh.
As for language (especially sarf), it's not necessarily a bad idea to use the traditional mutun; by its nature, sarf is a subject of memorization, and is thus long and tiresome. However, if this is done, it should be supplemented with actual readings of Arabic texts, applying what is learnt. I would have thought that one would learn more from reading books on topics which interest one (and notifying new vocabulary) than studying, say, the alfiyyah ibn malik in depth.
As for Sirah and Adab - and I would add to that, Shama'il and perhaps Khasa'is - there is no doubt of its need, especially in this day and age. The shifa is particularly important due to it dealing with issues such as insulting the Messenger salla Llahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam etc
the books of 'hisab' in nizami syllabus might have been cutting edge 400 years ago; khan academy tutorials are far superior to chaghmeni or the many books of hisab murabba' or hisab sittin which nobody uses in our time.
as for formal logic, many ulama like suyuti and others detested it; so it is not a necessary part of knowledge. indeed, everything should be measured according to its need and objective. it is essential to introduce tools or courses to train students for comprehension and reasoning. there are better books of formal logic like "introduction to logic" by copi and cohen, for example, which can be adapted for islamic students with examples from fiqh, hadith, kalam and usul. i tried reading some mantiq books, and found them long winding (we make do with notations but these texts don't) - plus i have the handicap of already knowing these terms and concepts in a different language. i would say, an adapted form of GMAT or GATE should be introduced instead of those cumbersome and obselete texts.
indeed, reading philosophy works like russel's "history of western philosophy" or will durant's many books may be dangerous, unless accompanied with a commentary of a competent kalam scholar - pointing out the lacunae and the finer points of correlation or contradiction with islam.
even learning arabic is tiresome in the present syllabus; no wonder that many graduates remain unable to read an arabic book even after years of grinding.
english speaking students can master the fundamentals of arabic far quickly with orientalist works like that of thornton, thatcher and wright, than go through the subcontinent arabic learning system. i do not say that it is useless, but i would say that it is ineffective. otherwise, every graduate from a subcontinent madrasah should be able to read arabic books with very few mistakes; which i don't think is the case. but i could be mistaken as i am generalizing here.
naHw al-waDiH, jilani's jamiy durus al-arabiyyah, aajurrumiyyah and its many shuruh (there is a colorful version printed from saudia too) are good books for starters. v.abdu'r Rahim's madinah course is also recommended.
i think tadribu'r rawi, al-ilma'a of qaDi iyaD, fat'h al-mughith of al-iraqi should be sufficient for non-specialists.
anyway, these are my opinions based on superficial observation of a student. i do not dispute that i may be wrong.
wAllahu ta'ala a'alam.
more shocking is that he mistranslates a comment from muqaddimah of ibn salah in his introduction, thereby weakening imam malik!
We poor students need practical books on sarf to learn and enjoy from. why do we have to be bogged down by cryptic ambiguous matns and long difficult textbooks initially meant for the teacher
brother abu Hasan is right. textbooks are for the teacher, not for student
An example of how the sub-continents shock you in usul alhadith is the contemporary scholar Allamah Ghulam Rasul Saeedi in his commentary of Sahih Muslim, where he weakens ahadith from alBukhari and Muslim. He disparages major Ulama like A'ta bin Abi Rabah and other major tabi'in.
He was reprimanded by Allamah Abdul Hakim Sharaf alQadiri rahimahuAllah for this and all his oddities.
Then the readers follow him in all these oddities including people are known as U'lama without verifying from major authorities and majority positions!!!
Mantiq and hikmah books cannot be taken out of the syllabus. The reason for this is that without a scholar being conversant in that style of writing he will not have a good grasp of ilm alkalaam and ilm alusul.
But books in rational sciences do need to be added in the syllabus and not taken away.
In sarf abwaab alsarf is an excellent work. After which Shadha alA'rf, I'lm alSighah, Fusul e Akbari, Marahul Arwah and finally Sharh alShafiyah of Ridiyy are sufficient.
These books in sarf are sufficient and all the other texts can be dropped (like Munsha'ib, Zubdah, Panj Ganj, Sarf Meer), even though it should be compulsory that a student is familiar of all these books also.
I'm afraid in Usul alHadith the Pakistani and Indian U'lama sometimes shock you, with the the few exceptions.
They only have two texts in Usul alHadith in the syllabus:Nukhbat alFikr and Muqaddimah of Shaykh AbdulHaqq Dehlawi rahimahuAllah. The excellence of a graduate then depends on his teacher in dawra e hadith and personal reading.
But having said that the editions of the six books of hadith are the best in the world in terms of marginalia. They have the names of narrators on the side as well as mufradaat and gharib words, and also quick notes on the fiqh of the hadith.
Also the tafsir classes in the syllabus are some of the best in the world.
Also originally originally tajwid and qira'at were taught. Like in some places the Jazariyya and Shatibiyyah are memorised. This needs to be re-introduced.
Math and Science need to re-packaged for our madaaris. But having said that none of the old books should be dropped. Rather modern science and math should be taught alongside. This will produce the scholars of the future who can write on these subject matters from a Quranic world view.
madrasahs can make use of hybrid teaching.
it may not be easy to bring experts/professionals in secular sciences* to madrasahs to teach as they may not want to associate themselves with religious madrasahs. suppose someone agrees, even then they would expect a pay far higher than what most madrasahs could afford.
instead, we could use, for example, khan academy tutorials and computer based tutorials (CBTs) which can be used to teach by a sunni-muslim graduate who can lead the course. the videos are tutorials; but may require some help for madrasah students.
some people, usually arabs - even some ulama - have an aversion to this word, probably because the translation in arabic - `almaniyah - has strong connotations with irreligiousness; secular simply means 'worldly, temporal, or not-about-religion'
The text usually taught is Nukhbatul Fikr and at takhassus level, its probably Muqaddima Ibn Salah
i have not tasted the teaching of Hadith Shareef, in sha Allah one day. jazakAllah khair brother abu Hasan for the above post. It was very beneficial. Opened my eyes.
This is a brilliant thread and I will only comment on Shaykh Munawwar Atiq's
syllabus partially concentrating on what he has labelled as Liberal Arts.
Im not qualified to comment on the religious studies section but as a professional
educator i think i can comment on the former.
Its good to be back.
Agreed. Some `ulama teach many books in Hadith sciences and Hadith texts apart from the conventional books. Muhaddith al Kabir Allama Zia ul Mustafa Azami being at the forefront.
I'm sure the Dars Niazmi is longer than that. . .
What about Hadith dirayatan i.e. mustalah?
i once compared the syllabii of major madras in india/pakistan of both sunnis and devbandis (who anyway, claim the same dars-nizami). many books in the list (particularly mantiq, hikmat and hisab) are of little use in our times. imho, the syllabus should be radically altered and a new scheme of teaching and evaluation introduced.
even the sarf-naHw books can be replaced by more practical ones. it may sound weird, but text books are meant for teachers, not for students. text books are brief and sometimes cryptic; the teacher is expected to fill in the details and explain the unsaid, from his store of knowledge/experience and use textbooks to keep on course without digression.
almost on all levels, there ought to be changes from fiqh, hadith, usul and so forth. it may sound a bit rich coming from an outsider and a non-scholar, but it is related to educational theory and hence my audacity to comment.
most syllabii (in subcon madrasas) lack a structured teaching of hadith, though, some teachers may have their own method. again, my comments are based on the published syllabus and i do not generalize that all teachers are locked to that text book. wAllahu ta'ala a'alam.
one stark omission, i think, is the category of adab al-ilm. i believe that when the nizami syllabus was formed, even until the last century, teachers exemplified the character of a scholar and they passed it on to their students who learned this by osmosis. unfortunately such teachers are becoming rarer by the day.
by the time, a student reaches the 18th year of his life, he should have read the following books - and it should be made a condition for graduation, that the aspiring graduate should have taught some of the following books (to his juniors) at least once starting from the penultimate year (in the presence of senior teachers). any student who memorises 10 sahih hadith from these books, should be given a bonus course credit (multiplied by as many tenners).
1. adab al-ishrah of al-ghazzi
2. tadhkiratu's samiy wa'l mutakallim of ibn jama'ah
3. adab al-mufti wa'l mustafti of imam nawawi
4. iqtida'a al-ilm al-`amal of khatib baghdadi
5. ayyuha'l walad of imam ghazali
6. faDl ilm as-salaf of ibn rajab al-hanbali
7. the exegesis of the hadith: ma dhiybani ja-`yiyani by ibn rajab
8. nur al-iqtibas of ibn rajab
9. mukhtasar shu`ab al-iman, abridged by qazwini
10. bustan al-arifin of imam nawawi.
the list may look long but these are short booklets and the lengthiest book in the list can be covered within 20 hours. though content overlaps in these books, one book can be used every year in an 8-10 year course alongside other subjects, and repetition will hammer in the concept.
the other point is about sirah. in our times, kitab al-shifa should be made mandatory for graduation.
i am sure specialists and senior scholars may have a more refined list of books, but from the perspective of a student with a basic introduction to hadith science, i think that fresh graduates and senior students should have already read and be conversant with the following books. at least some, if not all, of these books should be included in the syllabus (i think the first two and the fifth figure in some syllabi):
1. jamiy al-ulum wa'l hikam
2. riyaDu's salihin
3. jawahiru'l bukhari with sharh of qasTallani
4. mukhtaSar SaHiH muslim of al-munziri
5. bulugh al-maram (even if you are not a shafiyi)
6. sharh of arbayin by al-haytami
7. al-maqaSid al-Hasanah of al-sakhawi
wa billahi't tawfiq.
Most of the books mentioned in this article are now dropped from the syllabus and the Dars e Nizami has undergone many changes in the past few years. Almost every major jamia have their own scheme but most of the core texts are similar. It would be much appreciable if a thread is dedicated for the listing of the works in the Dars e Nizami (possibly with brief descriptions).