Devbandis limiting the Knowledge of Allah

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Aqdas, Aug 22, 2020.

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  1. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Usman retard looks like he's doing what Tariq is saying.

     
  2. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    Salaam, dont really know if this was aimed at me. My apologies if it wasn't

    This video does not answer me.
    The objection I had involved the non takfir of a person who HAS equated with Allaah ie he says they are equal (and says creations knowledge is granted or ata'ee)
    Our sunni Ulema in the Shaykh Asrar video inferred that is Kufr, TKM inferred that is Kufr, most people recognise that as kufr. So please brothers do not scold me.

    I have no objection on Adheem descriptions of the Prophet's Knowledge SallAllaahu alaihi wa sallam. Or any wish for anyone falsely accused of equating to be given a fatwa of kufr.

    My objection is only on the one who says "equal with Allah by bestowal"

    Ata'ee (bestowed, granted) equality/shirkat is the belief of most mushrikeen. They usually believe in an ultimate God who gives/grants. Hence to say ataee is by definition less is actually useful only for accusations where person doesn't himself claim barabari.

    The deos in one of the videos did not have a problem with the non takfir - I think they were referring to this matter at the time. Hence I have no compatibility with them either on this.

    I have no current questions or objections. I consider this matter dealt with and archived - it is kufr. I will take an interest in the matter if scholars speak on it like Shaykh Asrar video but the interest is purely limited to see which way they go rather than expect to change my view.
    Shaykh Asrar excited me a little bit and made happy temporarily by insinuating the reason for the non takfir is not 'ata'ee' but a shubha. So I asked on here regarding Shaykhs view. After replies here I don't know what he was referring to. He was not open about it enough.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  3. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    I don't know who the shaykh is but this is the answer.

     
  4. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    There lies the problem. I don't matter to you as a person!

    You actually do matter to me, I can't for one second say you don't matter to me.
     
  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    lol.. as if you matter to me as a person.

    you seem to consider yourself important enough for random people on the internet to launch vendetta campaigns against you. I am reminded of the famous quip by Nietzsche.

    btw, nice attempt to wriggle out of talking in concrete facts. but cribbing about me won't do you no good.

    Request the mods to please move these personal rants to a different thread so the present discussion does not get side-tracked. Thanks.
     
  6. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    His manipulation is switching the subject matter to the person. Encouraging others to behave in an uncivil manner, a frenzy, verbal flogging

    I have offered everything, asked everything I had to in the initial discussion hence his insistence here in inducing me to get into the same discussion is but a ploy to achieve the frenzy mentioned above.
    If this changes I will bring that naseeha to you and others, all the while learning myself including offering phone conversations to anyone in the world who has an interest.

    My view is same as yours in TKM, also as said in the Shaykh Asrar video by the presenter.

    I'm sure you will agree the recent highprofile comments of Sh Asrar leave a question about what exactly he was talking about. I have taken notes with timings if you are interested.
     
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    asking you to refute with proof is 'chest thumping'? sub'HanAllah.

    apologies. according to you, asking for proof = manipulation. if not, then please explain how is he trying to 'manipulate' you.

    apparently, this is telling him: 'don't ask questions'. this is 'lyrical gangsterism'
     
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    on the face of it, quite deserving so.

    anyone who is unable to answer can say: "he speaks better than me, he knows better than me, he explains better than me, his position is better than mine; i was flogged, but i have a thick skin and meek personality. so i kept quiet."

    ---
    you can read dawlah, its commentary and super commentaries.
    i did not want to be rude, but you don't seem to understand plain sentences and try hard to twist sentences to fit in your own worldview.


    typical excuses of those who are unable to answer.

    no one is told 'they have no right to ask' on our forum. this is the lamest excuse of the season.
    please give an example where you were told that you had no right to ask.
     
  9. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    Quit with the manipulation and stop encouraging a chest thumping extreme partizan attitude towards Deen.
    You are giving Sunnis a bad name on the world stage.

    Like I said if you have a problem with any issue with me you are even welcome to phone me
     
  10. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Having been around the forums for quite a while, I can generally spot the difference between someone who doesn't understand and someone who refuses to understand.

    If you are a sincere person then it should not be too difficult for you to write a clear cut refutation of the contradictions and loopholes you have seen in the answers and replies here.

    You don't even have to respond to everyone - just refute TKM and/or abu Hasan's answers here.

    We'll give you a level playing field - a whole thread for you to unburden yourself - provided you shoot straight instead of making insuniations and trying to trip us into some of your perceived "confessions".

    You feel Alahazarat has contradicted himself? Say so. You feel abu Hasan is making false ta'weels? Say so.
    But not without proofs. Be candid and you need not be cautious.

    Let's see you do that.

    if you are sincere - nothing of this should deter you. If you wish to learn, tenacity and hardihood are good qualities to have.

    ---

    But if you try to be sneaky, you will have to keep looking over your shoulders. Nowadays, I don't hang around the forums a lot but there are several pairs of better eyes than mine to apprehend a troll.
     
    abu Usman likes this.
  11. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    I was verbally flogged quiet a bit that's true mainly due to you setting the tone for others. A thick skin and a meek personality helped take a good desperate flogging but even Shaykh Foudeh would tell a questioner to expect that.

    As for the subject matter I got an introduction to the view of Imam Ahmad Rida Khan but nobody could justify the position to a satisfactory conclusion, even TKM which I was told to read had contradictory position in it from the author. In the end due to its unwelcomeness I agreed with a "might be" to end it.

    However my intention here is not to revive that initial query, here I merely wanted to know what sh Asrar said about removing doubts for takfir. It seems sh Asrar did not openly address the issue (if Aqdas is right)

    Anyway don't vacuum me into your Web of lyrical gangsterism and as most observers would have seen your role as influencer/starter/igniter of uncivilised behaviour has been noticed. People have questions but they are forced to say "I have no right to ask" and other apologetics due to your gangsterism and suppression.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    From this post:

    @Tariq Owaisi

    I think this continued obsession with a certain statement of a specific scholar - is, to put it delicately, a tad unhealthy.

    Your doubts had been flogged so thoroughly in the previous thread that any casualty in the world would have declared them "brought dead".

    Hence, their resurfacing here still alive and kicking is nothing short of a miracle - albeit a rather unwelcome at that.

    Your time would be better spent actually looking for a teacher who would learn you how to read a fatwa in the light of the entire corpus of the scholarly work produced by its author rather than in isolation from his copious and well-known positions.

    Your desparate clinging to one statement out of 400 pages worth of rare scholarship reminds me of the two clowns who were raving mad about the supposed doctoring of a quote from mirqat by mufti ahmad yaar khan sahib.

    In-fact , it is worse.
     
    Abdullah Ahmed likes this.
  13. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Well-Known Member


    Allah's Knowledge is "Infinite".
    So if a person says Prophet's knowledge is "Infinite" yet "GIVEN/CREATED", he is essentially "contradicting" himself and "Entertaining infinite regress".
    It is similar to the Kufr of those who deny Jahar ul Fard (The Indivisible element) and claim "infinite" creations exist "RIGHT NOW". And IF they are infinite then they CANNOT exist by definition because creation of infinite creations Cannot be traversed/completed by virtue of infinite being endless.

    *I am just highlighting the Contradiction entailed from someone who equates Prophet's Knowledge with Allah's knowledge regardless if he claims that Allah's knowledge is NOT contingent and Prophet's knowledge is.

    And this claim of the person " Prophet's knowledge is equal yet contingent/granted/given" CONTRADICTS AQAL, that which is known to be true by rational necessity and OPENS UP A PANDORA-BOX of other deviant beliefs such as the eternality of the universe.

    I fail to see how "takfir" could be avoided in this case (the exception could be if the person uttering this is NOT sane). But the ulemma knows best in such a scenario, though i would like to know the reason for withholding takfir. Not that i am entitled to.

    And Allah knows best.

    Jazak Allah.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  14. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    I think it did.

    http://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/the-sunni-creed-regarding-the-knowledge-of-allah-and-his-messenger-ﷺ.14278/

    Which says: takfir is avoided IF the person distinguishes between dhati/atayi.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  15. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    Thank you for that brother Aqdas but I don't think this answered my question. I know the 2 sects throw around accusations on ordinary Muslims. I have debated them for years. My question is not on Alahazrats general view and my view is the same as the presenters and Shaykh Asrars and the view given for the vast majority of barelvis as said in the video.

    I was actually looking for the claim of Shaykh Asrar that Alahazrat puts a condition of removal of doubt (shubha) before any takfir is made of the one who does equate the Prophets knowledge with Allaah's Knowledge.

    Did Sh Asrar quote Imam Ahmed Rida Khan correctly there?
     
  16. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Dawlah Makkiyyah, pp.53-4

    Screenshot_20200815-024027_Scribd.jpg 20200815_024501.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
    Umar99 likes this.
  17. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Well-Known Member

    SallAllaahu alaihi wa sallam

    On equating the knowledge of Allaah and his Messenger

    54mins Asrar said Alahazrat (in ad dawlatul makkiya) said its kufr but shubha must be removed for takfir.
    On a person who says the Knowledge of Allah and the Messenger of Allaah is equal we do not declare him a disbeliever we do not do takfir of him: "why did he say we do not declare him a disbeliever, not because that belief is not kufr, he says that there may be a shubha a doubt, before declaring someone a disbeliever the shubha the doubt must be removed, this is the reasoning, otherwise in this book he presents multiple differences between knowledge of the Messenger of Allaah SallAllaahu alaihi wa sallam and the Knowledge of Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala"

    2.01/02mins Asrar said Allah's knowledge can never be encompassed by creation.
    (my comments : This is true but it doesn't stop people equating, equating is shirk, in reality no creations knowledge can equate to Allaah but shirk is in the ascription ie they ascribe equals, ascribe partners)

    3.08mins Asrar said Alahazrat said in ad dawlatul makkiya that we do not do takfir because of a shubha, he does not agree that anyone can equate the knowledge. Both Presenter and Shaykh Asrar agree with the opinion (Mullah Ali Qari) that belief of equating the knowledge of the Messenger and Allaah is kufr and majority of those who call themselves barelvi and have ilm will agree.


    These are some notes I have taken on this subject.
    Can anyone confirm this removal of the shubha condition for takfir Shaykh Asrar is ascribing to Imam Ahmed Rida Khan?
     

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