Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. ghulam-e-raza

    ghulam-e-raza Well-Known Member

  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Nobody is placing personalities above principles.

    We are concerned only with principles here.

    I for instance am not a Jalali fan. Same time last year, I didn't even consciously know him. Might have seen of him or heard of him in passing.

    In other words, we wait, realistically speaking, anywhere from 6 months to 5 yrs to be able to comment on it in hindsight.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    Unbeknown likes this.
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Incredibly beghayrat, besharam, behaya, badbakht, mardood

    The talk is riddled with logical and fiqh fallacies, some of which were answered in this thread itself by various people. If you want an autopsy, transcribe the talk, and I'm sure most people here can dismantle all those fallacies.

    As I said, he's the next tahirul! Just wait and watch.

    This issue is going in circles.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  4. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    What do we think about this? The opposition defence:

  5. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    So what about:

    1. Using the terms mahfuz and ma'sum interchangeably.

    2. Implying that Jalali sahib is kafir.

    3. Calling Dr Jalali a harami.

    4. Saying Dr Jalali is an insulter of Sayyidah Fatimah رضي الله عنها.

    5. Saying that attributing khata to Sayyidah رضي الله عنها is kufr.

    6. Saying that attributing khata to prophets is kufr.

    7. Allowing a man to say masumah for sayyidah رضي الله عنها in your presence.

    My point is, the creed of Ahl al-Sunnah has to be explained by our ulama, whether they name Sayyid Mash'hadi or not.

    So even if you take him out the equation, the above were said publicly so our ulama have to comment on them.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
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  6. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    The reason why I am not more pro Jalali sahib is that their initial response to this issue further strengthened the hand of the opposition. Now there might be a valid reason for them not to take their initial statement back but at this moment (without the full facts being known) I don't see how that stance benefited sunnis. By taking the statement back does not necessitate negation of khata e ijtihadi or promoton of aqeeda e masoomiyat for the Ahl ul Bayt. There was scope for both taking the statement back and clarifying the Sunni viewpoint. As things stand, I feel this would have been the better approach.

    That leaves the opposition and their behaviour has already been condemned. I am staying quiet over Shah sahib (and Jalali sahib) until their motives become clear. We need to remain objective.

    What we do condemn is the swearing and abusive language because it is ugly and not befitting of a scholar to speak like that.

    The lack of signatures of the fatwa speaks volumes about its credibility, especially as a lot more scholars were vocal at the start in speaking out against Jalali sahib.

    Once again let the motives become clear on all sides before passing judgement
  7. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    We need to look at ways in how we can strengthen our ranks. If the ulema don't want to, then we need to use our voice and lobby them. Like @Ghulam Ali pointed out, principles before personalities but with the intention of minimising divisions. When we blindly follow personalities or even just loosely disavow them, then these divisions just increase. We must respect our ulema but when principles are being disregarded, we need to respectfully challenge this too. We have a lot more power than we realise, so we need to sincerely use this for the betterment of the maslak.

    Being pro Jalali sahib or against Shah sahib is not going to solve anything, especially when we are not on the ground.
  8. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    It is clear that this was no accident and behind it there is a pre-planned agenda, which is obviously linked to the politics of the country. When this agenda becomes clear, we will be better placed to comment.

    The fatwa that you are alluding to is being and will be scrutinized by the ulema, and a judgement will be passed.

    To avoid this becoming rife in the UK. We need to tackle the issues that I have aforementioned and what should also be added is the issue of Tafdhlism and the supposed Nasabism in our ranks. These don't get solved by public refutations and emotional speeches but by creating code of conducts and raising awareness amongst our Sunni public. This requires lobbying our scholars and organisations.
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Brother, can you please define "conclusion".

    Jalali is arrested. A fatwa has been passed by the opposing party. Statements have also been issued by the for party.

    Please do let me know which event will signify the finish line for this fiasco.

    Well noted.

    What exactly is that "more", or do you not want to share it?

    When will that be? And again, what event will signify this reality becoming clear?
  10. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    All due respect brother From the Two Problems the issue of Fatwa of out of fold of AhleSunnat is the bigger problem here which is causing disunity and confusion amongst Sunni awam
  11. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    this is where the confusion arises, Khata e ijtihadi is possible for Sayyidah Aisha radiAllahu Ta’ala Anha, Sayiduna Amir Mu’awiyah RadiAllahu Ta’ala Anhu (and others from Sahaba and ahlebait Allah is pleased with them all) but not for Sayidah Fatimah Zahra radiAllahu Ta’ala anha? Haven’t heard this from Sunni alim before
  12. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    not me bro
  13. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    Let this issue play out to its conclusion as then the reality will become clear. This is not me saying what the defenders of the likes of Hamza Yusuf that there is a grand plan that him and likeminded scholars are working on to safeguard the faith of Muslims. What I am saying that there is more to this issue than what we are aware of. Let's wait until the reality becomes clear.

    What is clear though is the use of foul language by ulema and laypersons in public spaces and the negative effect this is having. The ulema need to take notice of this and of the licitness of the justifications that they provide.

    Furthermore, I know @Aqdas and other brothers have been speaking out against some Nasheed Artists in the recent past. This has now got worse with these artists (who have big followings) as previously there were issues with their behavior and extortionate demands but now they are peddling misguided beliefs too. Again the Ulema need to take notice and come together to tackle this issue.
  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    thanks for this. then whoever calls you a cheerleader for Irfan Shah has done a khata.
  15. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    masum anil Khata are only angels and prophets of Allah peace be upon them all, for everyone else Khata e ijtihadi is possible and can or has happened. I follow the opinion of hazur Muhadith e Kabir may Allah Ta’ala protect them
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  16. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    ok what do the majority scholars of the Ahlus Sunnah from khayrul quroon till now say regarding calling Ahle Bayt/Sahaba as masoom? or saying words that really amount to 'not masoom but masoom'? what is the mukhtar fatwa on someone who attributes khatae ijtihadi to Sahaba or Ahle Bayt? is he to be called kafir and gustakh?
  17. Ghulam Ali

    Ghulam Ali Active Member

    Principles v personalities

    will always be supportive of righteous ulama who are in line with ahlesunnat.

    will always follow and support the ulama on the side of the majority.

    majority of Ulama will never be gatherEd upon misguidance. In sha Allah
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  18. Tālib ul-Haq

    Tālib ul-Haq New Member

    The Irfan Shah cheerleaders on this forum are silent.

    Zulfiqar Haideri and Ghulam Ali have previously been vocal in defence of Shahji and his gaali gloch. One of them is Raja Nabeel.
  19. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Well-Known Member

    Some serious questions for Muzaffar Hussain Shah and Irfan Shah Mash'hadi on the double standards being employed within their circles.
  20. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Well-Known Member

    Jalili Sahibs father becomes tearful whilst hearing on stage of the shameful behaviour of his former student Irfan shah who made vile allegations upon him and his deceased wife (may Allah Almighty have mercy on her)

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