Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. Aftab Malik

    Aftab Malik New Member

    Watched each and every video posted on this forum and facebook.
    I find it repugnant and irresponsible to say: The Noble Lady Sayyidah Al-Zahra (R) did not know the Hadith of her Father صلى الله عليه وسلم ; This argument is used by all those making excuses for Asif Jalali sahib.
    great grandchildren of the Noble Lady had ilm al-ghaib and you say she did not know.
    This is lack of Adab which exonerates Sayyid Pir Irfan Shah al-Moosavi.

    I strongly urge and request everyone to consider the points of contentions.
  2. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I don't know but it seems he is referring to the "change of words" - where jalali sahib said "we will not use the word khata" - and muzaffar sahib is saying that substituting a different set of words does not qualify as ruju.

    This seems to be a response to hazrat's previous reply when he said that when the sayyidah (raDyiAllahu 'anha) did not know of the hukm in the first place, it cannot be called a "khata" - unless the demand was kept up - which isn't the case.

    As for the second audio, in which hazrat says that "khata ijtihaadi" is not synonymous with any gustakhi - and hence no tawbah as such is necessary [correct me if I have misunderstood hazrat's response] - muzaffar sahib has not responded to that.

    In this lecture muzaffar sahib stresses on the inappropriateness of the use of the word "khata" in our times, as it has gained a negative connotation - from this admittedly valid contention* - the leap towards gustaakhi and takfeer is really astonishing.

    On the flip side, he is defending irfan shah sahib's use of the word ma'soom - as just a linguistic variant of mahfooz** - failing to consider that it is just as inappropriate, if not more.

    Thirdly, he is quoting the elders' use of the word "tahira" as a an accommodating proof for using the word ma'soom - whereas that word has an explicit nass in the Qur'an.

    Lastly, the other mufti sab focusing on thew words "chane nahi bech rahe hai"*** seems to have misunderstood him, afaik, he wasn't using sarcastic language towards muhaddith-e-kabeer, in fact, he spoke with perfect adab.

    And Allah knows best

    * many years ago a mawlana sahib had told me that he doesn't agree to using the word "khata" for sayyiduna mu'awiyyah (raDyiAllahu 'anhu) even with the adjective of "ijtihaadi", in the awaam, because people are likely to latch on to the first word and leave off the second.

    ** the jawaaz for which, says he, is found in the book - notice the irony, he is faulting jalaali sahib for using "book-language" without considering the present connotations, and yet he is OK with irfan sahib doing jut that.

    *** I hope the prices of the humble legume won't be affected in Pakistan due this off--the cuff remark : )
  3. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Well-Known Member

    Those are my initial thoughts.
  4. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Well-Known Member

    I can at least respect Allama Qari Tayyib Naqshbandi's attempt at being respectful in spite of the fact that I disagree with him.

    However, he keeps saying that he disputes the attribution in Mushkilat e Hadith and Bahare Shariat which doesn't make a difference. The difference now is what Allama jalali sahib damat barakatahum saying kufr or gustakhi? If so, put a fatwa on the authors.

    Secondly, Mawlana Tayyib sahib qiblah should know that his having a disagreement with Musallam al Thubut or Na`imat al Bari is not enough for us to not take it as a reference. That is an illogical statement on the part of the respected Mawlana.

    Furthermore, mawlana qari tayyib does not prove the da`wa given by his own group that this is "be-adabi" or "gustakhi" from Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani's ibarat. Rather he goes onto his own logic.

    Also if Mawlana qari tayyib has such a problem on Na`imat al Bari vol 14 and saying "Allah maaf farmayega" to sayyida Fatima al Zahra radhiALlahu anha, then why doesn't he put a fatwa on `Allamah Ghulam Rasul Saeedi rahmatullahi alayh?

    Maaf farmayega means forgive her ijtihadi mistake, as per the text of Na`imat al Bari. We do du`a for the maghfirah of the whole ummah. This includes the Ahl al-bayt.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  5. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    janab AbdalQadir
    i am in total agreement that utmost respect should be shown.
    my point is this issue doesn't have anything to do with adab, more like a political and khanqah rivalry.

    if you had listened to mufti aslam bandalywi speech on this matter he quotes son of shah abdul haqq dehlawi and few other scholars.

    my question is why when Dr Asif Jalali says it become bad adab but when other scholars or early scholars say it doesn't become bad adab. Allmah gulam rasool saedi was quoted in this thread. why don't they do takfir of him. Imam e Adham Abu Hanifah was quoted, why not apply the same on Imam Abu Hanifah.

    hope you got the point.

  6. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Well-Known Member

  7. Paradise Seeker

    Paradise Seeker Active Member

    Shaykh Asrar - Open letter to Ulama of Pakistan in Urdu. Instead of wasting time on internal disputes which are not actual Kalam (theological) issues but just divisive discourse and in some cases swearing and abuse coupled with confused definitions of well known concepts like 'masum'. Instead of firing up an already ignorant public with slogans and insults, all efforts should be made in teaching basics of Tawhid and the basic proofs. Instead the peers and maulwis are busy with fiery rhetoric telling the public that peers who they deem as awliya are mahfuz, and mahfuz is the same as masum (sinless) except the former is not decisive and the latter is decisive! All the while to justify swearing they introduce the bidah of saying Allah swears in the Quran (which is wrong and false). Then murids are taught to blind follow. Spread the letter to all Urdu speaking ulama:

    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    you or me not showing adab to each other is a completely different case than someone being disrespectful towards Sahaba or Ahlul Bayt. don't mix up the two issues brother.

    of course we don't deny our Sunni 3aqidah, but still we have to maintain adab for the Sahaba and Ummahaatul Mumineen and Ahlul Bayt.

    this is why some people have said that this issue is best avoided lest awam go in circles, and someone flies off on a tangent.


    according to Mashhadi sab's daleel/reasoning:

    1. the person who speaks lightly about the blessed sandals of the Prophet 3alaihis salam becomes a kafir

    2. therefore, the ruling will only be harsher on the person who speaks disrespectfully about Sayyidah Nisaa Al-3aalameen radi Allahu 3anha as the Prophet 3alaihis salam called her a part of himself

    my question:

    3. what about the one who uses the exact same word (khata) for the wives of the Prophet 3alaihis salam, the Ummahaatul Mumineen (proven by nass) and 3ashara Mubashsharah (given the glad tidings by Prophet 3alaihis salam), radi Allahu 3anhum ajma3een?

    this is exactly what that hanif qureshi said:

    did he do rujoo3 from his previous saying? (please provide link if someone knows about it)

    if not, with what moral authority did he so shamelessly come to that conference yesterday to talk about adab for Sayyidah Nisaa Al-3aalameen? what were all those crocodile tears for when the issue just started?

    and why was he welcome by the rest?

    where was all this rage and spitting fire when Ummahaatul Mumineen and Sahaba were attacked - by every single one of them who's ready to pounce on Jalali?

    (as an aside, hanif qureshi also spewed further jahalat by alleging that saying both Mawla Ali and those opposing him were in haqq is the belief of nasibis and kharijis. there is hadith supporting saying such)

    did Mashhadi sab speak up with so much rage against the blasphemous cartoonists in europe: charlie hebdo, denmark etc.? did he go medieval on the qadianis and the mirza in the UK? (these are genuine questions by the way. i don't know if he did or didn't speak up back then)

    or did he even get so harsh with paqs?

    if not, then he's very slyly selective in his rage. there's no other way to say it. (i was trying to make excuses, but by spitting so much venom yesterday, it looks like he's all in by himself)

    afaik Khadim Hussain sab spoke abundantly against the blasphemers of europe, but it looks like he wasn't present in yesterday's conference. (correct me if he was). don't know about others if they did or didn't speak against the european blasphemers.


    what are the senior muftis of the madaris and darul uloom's doing?

    i was told some of them would rather the fitnah die naturally than confuse the awam further or cause further polarization. but i digress. firstly the confusion and polarization is already caused and here to stay. secondly now that the fitnah exists, being ulema and owners of institutions, it's their duty to make the 3aqidah of Ahlus Sunnah and the ruling of the Shari3ah manifest. guidance comes only from Allah. our elders didn't wait for fitnah's to die naturally. they slayed it themselves.

    i feel some of them may indeed be thinking (rightly or wrongly) that it's best to let the issue die naturally, but i just feel some don't want to be caught in the crossfire between the peers.

    Allah knows best.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  9. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    i understand adab is important however this is part of the adab to clarify the position.
    lack of adab is to attribute falsehood like making claims of masoom or mahfooz bowing to rafidi shia pressure.

    quotes from fiqh al-akbar were posted, would someone claim lack of adab ?

    shaykh salih asmari mentions here more

    the matter may be sensitive to some but it certainly was not sensitive to the giants of this ummah.

    you can check statement from shaykh al-azhar here

    don't see any thing which indicates bad adab from shaykh al-azhar or shaykh salih asmari or the early scholars.

    also brother
    what about the adab card when it comes to cursing and swearing? is that part of islam?
  10. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    try using https://www.bitchute.com/ for videos - it's DMCA safe.

    there's no need to speak in such generalizations.

    these are sensitive matters and the route of adab is the safest.

    that's the sad part.
  11. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Lest we forget, in past we were willing to overlook Sayyid Irfan Shah's harsh/crass language (despite squirming at the choice of words) as long as it was directed against PAQ etc. Even though Pir Munawwar Jamaati appears to be orchestrating the charges, it would be disingenuous to suggest that he is behind Sayyid Irfan Shah's poor language.

    Despite his ubiquitous presence at the latest series of conferences, I suspect Pir Munawwar is not as influential a figure as it may appear. He is always a figurehead/ sadar at this majlis and that; I have never ever heard him say anything useful/scholarly. He probably has a knack of being everywhere.

    Look at purveyors of soft-tafdhili aqeeda: scions of Alipur sharif, Golra sharif, Eidgah sharif, this sharif, that sharif. Each disavowing the work of their own predecessors: Golra sharif disavowing tasfia, Arshad Kazmi claiming that Allama Saeed Kazmi's "mushkilat ul-hadith" (cited by Dr Jalali) is spurious.


    In his latest video, Allama Tayyib Naqshbandi sahab has repudiated/questioned ibarats presented by Dr Jalali (from mushkilat ul-hadith, bahar-e-shariat, Imam Asqalani's fath ul-bari, niamat ul-bari* etc.). To be fair to him, Allama Tayyib is more even-handed and doesn't explicitly side with parties charging Dr Jalali.

    * Allama Ghulam Rasool Saeedi has been known to create a handful of unfortunate controversies in his works.
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  12. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Well-Known Member

    I couldn't even go through the entire clip, astaghfirullah, the language was so foul. How can he say such words about the mother / parents of mufti Jalali Sahib! Utterly disrespectful man I have to say even though he is a Sayyid he is not above the shariat. Did he bring forth 4 witnesses when he made such an accusation? And isnt he afraid of Allah that kufr will come on to himself should the person he is accusing of not being a Muslim is not a kafir?

    And what about the rest like Munawwar shah bukhari of Blackburn and all who were so enthusiastically raising their hands in agreement when all this pollution was coming out of Irfan Shah's mouth? Do they think that Allah won't touch them as they are Sayyid? I applaud these fakes for exposing themselves to the public.
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    @Sunni By Nature linked to the videos that have now come up on youtube.

    i'm assuming Hamid Kazmi sab's speech will also be uploaded soon. he said tahir is a fitnah but if we write off all his fans Ahlus Sunnah will become weak.

    just the same 4shared has become a menace, you gotta register to watch/download the shared files/videos.

    we might never know the true position of Muzaffar Shah sahab, as he's (i've heard) the father in law of Irfan Shah's son, and considering how aggressive Irfan Shah sab can get, he might be in a tough spot. we all know desi culture of family and in-laws dramas

    commercial naatkhwani, emotional speeches, naarebazi, over-the-top aqeedatmandi, and lofty seven lines long titles are drugs that the Sunni awam is addicted to, and the dealers are the unqualified peers

    this is really a mureedi turf war with people hiding behind real or unreal aqidah and hukme Shariah points (as people familiar with ground realities are saying)

    i was told Asif Jalali sab, and Khadim Hussain sab too are well known for their aggressive behaviour and colorful language towards other Sunni scholars. so really the gaalis cancel each other out on both sides of the equation and no one needs to get emotional at any real or perceived mazloom

    Allah help us
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  14. Sunni By Nature

    Sunni By Nature Active Member

    Another conference that was held a few days ago:

  15. Sunni By Nature

    Sunni By Nature Active Member

    The full speech of Shaykh Irfan Shah Mash’hadi al-Musawi:

    The strong comments:

    The speech of Shaykh Saeed Ahmad Asad:

    The speech of Mufti Hanif Qureishi

    The full conference:

    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  16. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Well-Known Member

  17. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

    as few brothers have pointed out
    this issue has seriously exposed real scholars vs fake fraud charlatans.

    There is no doubt, Dr Asif Jalali position is based on ilm and adab and the point he was trying to make was a very valid point.
    khanqah shopkeepers took this opportunity to play with the emotions of awaam, to fool the awaam and increase their revenues through fanbase. Not a single charlatan has provided any reference or textual evidence for his claims, rather they resorted to foul language and takfir.

    only 3 people stood out as true scholars
    1. mawlana aslam bandylawi
    2. mawlana hassan raza
    3. mawlana asif jalali

    mawlana aslam bandaylawi quotes hadith from bukhari
    Narrated `Aisha:

    Usama approached the Prophet (ﷺ) on behalf of a woman (who had committed theft). The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The people before you were destroyed because they used to inflict the legal punishments on the poor and forgive the rich. By Him in Whose Hand my soul is! If Fatima (the daughter of the Prophet (ﷺ) ) did that (i.e. stole), I would cut off her hand."

    my question to rafidi shias
    is bukhari a nasibi and khariji
    did you ever look the commentary on this hadith by nawawi and ibn hajar?

    if dr jalali is kaafir for saying sahaba are not masum then how about ibn hajar and nawawi ?

    the worst ones
    1. tanveer hashmi asking his fans to lodge police complaints and work like gangsters and mobsters and inflict damage and loss on Dr Jalali

    2. habib ahmed huseni minhaji tahir ul padri stooge

    3. pakistani politician turned "scholar"

    4. silent watcher munawwar
  18. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Well-Known Member

    There is one thing positive that has come out of this, and that is it has exposed all these pseudo peers with lofty titles who claimed to be from the Ahle Sunnat.

    They have all lost their credibility!
    ramiz.noorie likes this.
  19. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    As mentioned previously, I struggle to see the benefit of either side's continued clips and videos in this issue. With every new video, what is Jalali Sahib going to prove, Sayida Fatima was mistaken or made mistakes. Conversely, how are the other side going to prove Jalali sahib is a gustakh, by manipulating sunni principles and muddying the waters. Looking at things objectively, neither stances are benefiting sunnis. Jalali sahib clarified his stance, so no need to respond to every new video. The other side can't seem to produce a reputable fatwa, so Jalali sahib is better off leaving them to it. The truth will become clear.

    Jalali sahib needs to move on and as requested by Muhadith e Kabeer so should the other side.

    I think we as the awaam should not bother listening to them anymore on this issue. They (these 'scholars')will soon realise that who they ACTUALLY need on their side or who they should be serving.

    We have been brought up to respect scholars and scholarship (that's what separates us from the likes of the salafis) but they have a responsibility to educate the awaam on the masla, and not serve their egos or their personal agendas. It's becoming very hard to take many of them seriously anymore.
  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
    ramiz.noorie likes this.

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