Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    1) Takfir with gaali

    https://www.4shared.com/s/fVZaKsZ3Bea

    2) 8 mins 35 seconds of just maa-behen. sorry but it sounds like a plastered guy sitting in a bar.

    and look at Munawwar jamati and that other guy in the green turban enjoying it fully. there's no 3izz, 3ilm, 3mal, 3fw, 3afiyat in this video, just 3irfan (mashhadi)

    https://www.4shared.com/s/fXlv2ivC5ea

    Paqs and the tafzili/rafidi bunch of the UK will be laughing all the way to the bank.

    Let Irfan Shah put his money where his mouth is. Let him come back to the UK and use the same kind of language against the affluent (with the Brits) qadianis.

    Let him use that same kind of language against paqs? What abt Hanif Qureshi or Riyaz shah?

    ----

    I got the below msg as a fwd on social media, written by another Sayyid

    .جَنّاب عرفان شاہ صاحب بلعم باعور مت بنیں.......
    بداء الاسلام غریباً و سیعود غریباً
    اسلام مسافری میں شروع ہوا عنقریب مسافر بن جائے گا
    عرفان شاہ کی خرافات سن کر یقین ہو گیا کہ اسلام پر مسافری کا زمانہ آگیا ھے
    عرفان شاہ نے
    حافظ الحدیث کی تربیت پہ پانی پھیر دیا
    عرفان شاہ نے اپنی والدہ کی تربیت کو گندے نالے میں بہا دیا
    جنّاب نے حافظ الحدیث کی روح کو شرمسار کر دیا
    جنّاب نے اھلِ سنت کو گالی بنا دیا
    جنّاب نے بدمذہبوں کو یہ بات بار آور کروا دی کہ گالی شعار ھے
    جنّاب نے کئی کبیرہ گناہوں کا ارتکاب کیا بلکہ عوام کو ان کبیرہ گناہوں پہ ابھارا جس کا گناہِ جاریہ جنّاب کے ذمہ ھے
    جنّاب نے لبرلز کی بات سچی کر دی کہ مولوی جاہل اور گالی گلوچ کے ماہر ہوتے ہیں
    جنّاب آپ سے مجھے نفرت ہوگئی ہے
    جنّاب آپ اھلِ سنت کے سر وبال ہیں اھلِ سنت پہ دھبہ بن گئے ہیں
    جنّاب حدیث پاک کے مطابق ان بیٹھے ہوئے تمام لوگوں میں بد ترین شخص ہیں
    جنّاب حدیث پاک کے مطابق آپ خالص منافق ہیں
    جنّاب اب اللہ تعالی سے ڈریں اسکی خفیہ تدبیر سے ڈریں
    اور بلعم باعورہ نہ بنیں
    خدارا خود پہ رحم کریں....
    (Sayyid)
    18/7/20
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  2. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Well-Known Member

    Firstly are any of them even qualified to issue a fatwa? Any qualified muftis amongst them? Let them put forth their evidence from the shariah rather than emotional baseless rants. These people are simply losing their respect by such actions.

    Very sad state of affairs unfortunately, they are just playing into the hands of the rafdis and I am pretty sure the rafdis are enjoying this show! All these so called "peers" should be doing tauba for their actions, especially those who have accused a Muslim of kufr.

    Reminds me about the hadith on the end of times where the ignorant will give speeches and the public would listen to them. Just look at those ignorant audience lifting up their hands in agreement when being asked so.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    This has been an ekdumm thudd kilaas episode for Sunnis. Allah help us.
     
    abu Usman likes this.
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    From Fawatih Ar-Rahamut

    http://www.islamport.com/b/2/usool/...0%E3%D3%E1%E3%20%C7%E1%CB%C8%E6%CA%20020.html

    Irfan Shah sahab and Muzaffar Shah sahab and all their associates should specify in black and white if their fatwa also applies to the author.

    Chishti sahab mentions it between 01:20:00 and 01:30:00 here

     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  5. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran


    Opinion without basis is baseless. Least these ulemas/khatibs could have done is stated the guiding principle under which this ruling of deviance/ex-communication/kufr has been issued. Just saying that gustakhi against Sayyida Fatima (radiAllah anha) leads to d/x/k is not enough. Shouldn't they have cited precedence or principle?

    As I said earlier, this episode has opened my eyes to the calibre of some of these khatibs. The veil/illusion of scholarship has been lifted. Who cares about split?

    Let's see which group of ulemas now issue counter-fatwa in defense of Dr Jalali.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  6. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    They deliver a fatwa against Jalali sahib.

    But one person is saying kufr, another deviance, another leading to kufr, outside ahl e sunnat, etc.

    When a fatwa is bogus, you get such discrepancies.

     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Just finished watching the longer video too. Ma sha Allah Tabarak Allah the mufti sahab seems very down to earth and comprehensive in his knowledge like you said.

    Both these videos are highly recommended to all.

    In the first video, he says bluntly between 01:41:00 and 01:44:30 that those who are actually asking for tawbah on the matter, it is in fact them who need to do tawbah for attributing something for nonprophets that hasn't even been attributed to prophets.

    I'm sure if this video and hukm is shown to some of the bigger celebrities of khanqah stardom, they're gonna be furious!
     
  8. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Although it may seem perverse to wish for repeat of such situations, these are precisely the times to gauge the real value/mettle of ulemas who have built huge reputations for themselves. I have now learnt a lot about many.

    That we are a divided lot was never in doubt. As always internal dissensions take priority over facing/tackling external threats. Like it or not, tafdhil(ism) is here to stay.
     
  9. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    I thought Muhadith e Kabeer's view was clear so don't know why there is a need to seek clarification. I for one have had enough of these politics. All we ask of our scholars is to safeguard and promote the principles of our pious predecessors not rigidly promote their own 'tahqeeq' and allow themselves to be gripped by personal agendas and their ego.
    Both sides are guilty of this because if they weren't, this issue would already been in hand.
    We ask Allah most High to safeguard our Iman and strengthen our ranks. Ameen.
    I've moved on from this issue because I don't see what good will come from Jalali sahib feeling the need to respond to every statement against him, and this 'tahreek' against him, the less said about that, the better.

    This will reach its natural conclusion in due course but it shows clearly how Muslims and Sunnis in particular are becoming weak. It is because of our internal issues. May Allah most High guide us all and strengthen our resolve in standing up for the truth. Ameen.
     
  10. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Well-Known Member

  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    neither am i. some things that i come across incidentally due to net, social media, some sincere friends, and so on (Pak as well as Hind), i somehow wish i didn't know them. the more you know, the more disheartened you get.

    if i tell you some things some people i trust (both sides of border) have told me about involvement of cops, arrests, bail, threats, blackmails, extortion, fraud, conspiracies, bribes, tickets, visas, love stories (yup that too) etc. and some seriously safed-posh and seriously big names, you'll think i'm reading the script of a bollywood movie, think that i'm talking about the various politicians, karkun's (karyakarta's), dalbadlu's (lota's) etc. of the various political parties of india and Pak, and also punch my jaw in sheer disbelief

    the rest of your post sums up the situation pretty well, and are my thoughts too.
     
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  12. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I am not that well-versed with rumble and tumble of ulema politics in Pakistan. Leaving aside the merit/nature/severity of Dr Asif Ashraf Jalali sahab's pronouncements, I personally think that he is being targeted for his growing profile in recent years (whether through his professional, well-created Tawheed TV videos or his vocal views on current matters of interest to ummah). Probably presents few ulemas or khanqahs with a chance to clip his wings or besmirch his reputation. It appears that along with Mawlana Khadim Rizvi, Dr Jalali has been one of the most vocal of sunni ulemas on political/public front (even though he may or may not harbour any political ambition). Other likely explanation is the growing menace of rifd/tafdhil afflicting the sunni khanqahs. Finally there's a bandwagon effect, which allows several ulemas to bandy their views and regain prominence while this issue is on the boil.

    As I have pointed out, besides Dr Jalali, few other ulemas like Mufti Fazl Chishti sahab have made a similar pronouncement on this issue but nobody has bothered to launch a witch hunt against them. Either others are small fries or the pro-ruju camp is unwilling to take on likes of Mufti Fazl Chishti.
     
  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    no need to say sorry brother @Waqar786 . i was just clarifying so that we're all on the same page.
     
  14. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    That's fair enough brother. Another thing I liked about what Muhadith e Kabeer said was that he said if the shias are getting upset then that's their problem. A lot of our ulema try to pander to these powerful lobbies but one thing is clear, if you let your detractors dictate or set the agenda, they will slowly make you compromise your principles. Once that is done, you have not got a leg to stand on. Sunnis just need to remain resolute and strengthen their rank, if Sunnis are strong, it will automatically strengthen the ummah in general In sha Allah.
     
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  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    if you're talking about me, i didn't mention a motive and i didn't mention first three generations. i said this:

    listen here between 01:01:00 and 01:02:00 (do correct me if my recap is wrong, i wrote from memory of watching that long video in parts) he said the same thing at another time in the video, 'bring me sayings of Badri As'hab, or Ashara Mubashshara, Sahaba, Ummahaatul Mumineen, Ahlul Bayt' and so on (ridwan Allahi 3alaihim ajma3een). don't remember now at which point

     
  16. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    That's fair enough brother. Another thing I liked about what Muhadith e Kabeer said was that he said if the shias are getting upset then that's their problem. A lot of our ulema try to pander to these powerful lobbies but one thing is clear, if you let your detractors dictate or set the agenda, they will slowly make you compromise your principles. Once that is done, you have not got a leg to stand on. Sunnis just need to remain resolute and strengthen their rank, if Sunnis are strong, it will automatically strengthen the ummah in general In sha Allah.
     
  17. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    One thing I do agree with Sh Nabeel is that when this clip first surfaced, Jalali Sahib should have apologised saying if these words hurt people then I am sorry and then clarified. This would have calmed the waters and not this issue to grow. Sometimes it is better to put the ego aside because Jalali sahib feels the need to reply every response. You have clarified the matter so move on. The same with the other side because I think Muhadith e Kabeer has summed it up nicely, so best to move on.
     
  18. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Well-Known Member

    ---
    I have deleted my post out of respect to the fact that shah sahib is a sayyid and even though i don't agree with his way of handling the situation, I rather bite my tongue.
     
  19. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    One thing I do agree with Sh Nabeel is that when this clip first surfaced, Jalali Sahib should have apologised saying if these words hurt people then I am sorry and then clarified. This would have calmed the waters and not this issue to grow. Sometimes it is better to put the ego aside because Jalali sahib feels the need to reply every response. You have clarified the matter so move on. The same with the other side because I think Muhadith e Kabeer has summed it up nicely, so best to move on.
     
  20. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Shah Sahib it would take 30 seconds to put a fatwa on but don't want to do that because it would cause more issues. However, trying your level best to prove something is a gustakhi (by muddying waters about sunni principles), and saying all sorts about the person in question is not calming the waters or preventing disunity from spreading. I am not going to speculate on Shah sahib's motives but it is clear that their response is not 'faisla kun' as it has been on previous issues. The likes of Sh Nabeel need to be more objective rather than blindly follow their pir in this matter
     

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