Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Just finished watching the longer video too. Ma sha Allah Tabarak Allah the mufti sahab seems very down to earth and comprehensive in his knowledge like you said.

    Both these videos are highly recommended to all.

    In the first video, he says bluntly between 01:41:00 and 01:44:30 that those who are actually asking for tawbah on the matter, it is in fact them who need to do tawbah for attributing something for nonprophets that hasn't even been attributed to prophets.

    I'm sure if this video and hukm is shown to some of the bigger celebrities of khanqah stardom, they're gonna be furious!
     
  2. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Although it may seem perverse to wish for repeat of such situations, these are precisely the times to gauge the real value/mettle of ulemas who have built huge reputations for themselves. I have now learnt a lot about many.

    That we are a divided lot was never in doubt. As always internal dissensions take priority over facing/tackling external threats. Like it or not, tafdhil(ism) is here to stay.
     
  3. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    I thought Muhadith e Kabeer's view was clear so don't know why there is a need to seek clarification. I for one have had enough of these politics. All we ask of our scholars is to safeguard and promote the principles of our pious predecessors not rigidly promote their own 'tahqeeq' and allow themselves to be gripped by personal agendas and their ego.
    Both sides are guilty of this because if they weren't, this issue would already been in hand.
    We ask Allah most High to safeguard our Iman and strengthen our ranks. Ameen.
    I've moved on from this issue because I don't see what good will come from Jalali sahib feeling the need to respond to every statement against him, and this 'tahreek' against him, the less said about that, the better.

    This will reach its natural conclusion in due course but it shows clearly how Muslims and Sunnis in particular are becoming weak. It is because of our internal issues. May Allah most High guide us all and strengthen our resolve in standing up for the truth. Ameen.
     
  4. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Well-Known Member

  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    neither am i. some things that i come across incidentally due to net, social media, some sincere friends, and so on (Pak as well as Hind), i somehow wish i didn't know them. the more you know, the more disheartened you get.

    if i tell you some things some people i trust (both sides of border) have told me about involvement of cops, arrests, bail, threats, blackmails, extortion, fraud, conspiracies, bribes, tickets, visas, love stories (yup that too) etc. and some seriously safed-posh and seriously big names, you'll think i'm reading the script of a bollywood movie, think that i'm talking about the various politicians, karkun's (karyakarta's), dalbadlu's (lota's) etc. of the various political parties of india and Pak, and also punch my jaw in sheer disbelief

    the rest of your post sums up the situation pretty well, and are my thoughts too.
     
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  6. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I am not that well-versed with rumble and tumble of ulema politics in Pakistan. Leaving aside the merit/nature/severity of Dr Asif Ashraf Jalali sahab's pronouncements, I personally think that he is being targeted for his growing profile in recent years (whether through his professional, well-created Tawheed TV videos or his vocal views on current matters of interest to ummah). Probably presents few ulemas or khanqahs with a chance to clip his wings or besmirch his reputation. It appears that along with Mawlana Khadim Rizvi, Dr Jalali has been one of the most vocal of sunni ulemas on political/public front (even though he may or may not harbour any political ambition). Other likely explanation is the growing menace of rifd/tafdhil afflicting the sunni khanqahs. Finally there's a bandwagon effect, which allows several ulemas to bandy their views and regain prominence while this issue is on the boil.

    As I have pointed out, besides Dr Jalali, few other ulemas like Mufti Fazl Chishti sahab have made a similar pronouncement on this issue but nobody has bothered to launch a witch hunt against them. Either others are small fries or the pro-ruju camp is unwilling to take on likes of Mufti Fazl Chishti.
     
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    no need to say sorry brother @Waqar786 . i was just clarifying so that we're all on the same page.
     
  8. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    That's fair enough brother. Another thing I liked about what Muhadith e Kabeer said was that he said if the shias are getting upset then that's their problem. A lot of our ulema try to pander to these powerful lobbies but one thing is clear, if you let your detractors dictate or set the agenda, they will slowly make you compromise your principles. Once that is done, you have not got a leg to stand on. Sunnis just need to remain resolute and strengthen their rank, if Sunnis are strong, it will automatically strengthen the ummah in general In sha Allah.
     
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  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    if you're talking about me, i didn't mention a motive and i didn't mention first three generations. i said this:

    listen here between 01:01:00 and 01:02:00 (do correct me if my recap is wrong, i wrote from memory of watching that long video in parts) he said the same thing at another time in the video, 'bring me sayings of Badri As'hab, or Ashara Mubashshara, Sahaba, Ummahaatul Mumineen, Ahlul Bayt' and so on (ridwan Allahi 3alaihim ajma3een). don't remember now at which point

     
  10. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    That's fair enough brother. Another thing I liked about what Muhadith e Kabeer said was that he said if the shias are getting upset then that's their problem. A lot of our ulema try to pander to these powerful lobbies but one thing is clear, if you let your detractors dictate or set the agenda, they will slowly make you compromise your principles. Once that is done, you have not got a leg to stand on. Sunnis just need to remain resolute and strengthen their rank, if Sunnis are strong, it will automatically strengthen the ummah in general In sha Allah.
     
  11. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    One thing I do agree with Sh Nabeel is that when this clip first surfaced, Jalali Sahib should have apologised saying if these words hurt people then I am sorry and then clarified. This would have calmed the waters and not this issue to grow. Sometimes it is better to put the ego aside because Jalali sahib feels the need to reply every response. You have clarified the matter so move on. The same with the other side because I think Muhadith e Kabeer has summed it up nicely, so best to move on.
     
  12. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Well-Known Member

    ---
    I have deleted my post out of respect to the fact that shah sahib is a sayyid and even though i don't agree with his way of handling the situation, I rather bite my tongue.
     
  13. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    One thing I do agree with Sh Nabeel is that when this clip first surfaced, Jalali Sahib should have apologised saying if these words hurt people then I am sorry and then clarified. This would have calmed the waters and not this issue to grow. Sometimes it is better to put the ego aside because Jalali sahib feels the need to reply every response. You have clarified the matter so move on. The same with the other side because I think Muhadith e Kabeer has summed it up nicely, so best to move on.
     
  14. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Shah Sahib it would take 30 seconds to put a fatwa on but don't want to do that because it would cause more issues. However, trying your level best to prove something is a gustakhi (by muddying waters about sunni principles), and saying all sorts about the person in question is not calming the waters or preventing disunity from spreading. I am not going to speculate on Shah sahib's motives but it is clear that their response is not 'faisla kun' as it has been on previous issues. The likes of Sh Nabeel need to be more objective rather than blindly follow their pir in this matter
     
  15. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Brother I have re-listened to the speech of Muhadith e Kabeer. He clearly states that Sayida Fatima's request was not khata but Khata ijtihadi. Shah sahib has a problem with this, which is why he wanted Jalali sahib to prove it the first 3 generations (AbdulQadir mentioned the motive behind this)
    Secondly Sh Nabeel is mistaken but I can see why.Muhadith e Kabir mentions Jalali sahib doing ruju but what he meant was that when Jalali clarified it was khata e ijtihadi, the mutlaq meaning of Khata was dropped, because it was not intended. When he has clarified then there is no need to speak about it or leading a campaign against him that some are doing. It is clear Shah sahib thinks that Jalali Sahib has done a gustakhi and has negated that it was a khata e ijtihadi. Sh Nabeel and Shah Sahib need to state that is labelling Sayida Fatima's request khata e ijtihadi a gustakhi. If so then what do they have to say about Muhadith e Kabir.
    Sh Nabeel's clarification does not represent Muhadith e Kabeer's words.
     
  16. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Well-Known Member

  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    which is said without qualification.

    however, these are complex matters which you and i won't understand. when necessary, the usage of the first three centuries is not applicable - and when it is convenient, one should not take except from the first three centuries. make your rules and keep them flexible, so you always win.

    ===
    i just got to see a clip of irfan shah sahib with some minhaji supporters and saeed as'ad sahib who accused pir nasir sahib of being rafizi and then wahabi.

    strange. the only casualty is the ahl e sunnat awam.
     
  18. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Well-Known Member

  19. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran


    Mufti Fazl Chishti is generally cryptic in naming his targets, although he spares none - from muqeem-e-London (probably PAQ or Zahid Hussain), muqeem-e-Canada (TuQ), shaykh-e-Gujarat, chaman-e-Sindh (Mawlana Saeed Asad?), Pindi Quraishi to Lahori doctor (Dr. Jalali). He reserves his utmost contempt for neem-rafizis and absolutely roasts TuQ. Although he generally supports Dr Jalali's viewpoint, he faults latter's defence.

    Given his straight-talking, abrasive approach, I can imagine Mufti Fazl Chishti to be a divisive figure even among the sunni ulemas, although his scholarship (in my limited comprehension) appears sound and comprehensive. His maqala on khata is worth listening for the references he provides.


    His 3 hour lecture on Tajdar-e-Golra's tasfia can be found here. He has another exclusive video refuting the statement by another aalim who stated it is not permissible for anyone to comment on matters related to ahl ul-bayt and none should dare tread beyond the blessed urine of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasallam).
     
  20. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    He's talking about Mufti Ashraf ul Qadri. Listen:

     

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