Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Active Member

    Brother Waqar,

    There is no doubt there are mukhlis Ulama on both sides like mufti shaiq and mufti ashraful qadri and allama abdus sattar saeedi etc and that Mawlana Jalali was better off backing away from his statement but now the issue has been hijacked by pir sahiban like Munawwar shah sahib jamaati and munawwar shah Bukhari sahib.

    Furthermore, those mukhlis ulama from the mukhalifeen have a responsibility to respond to Mawlana jalali's proofs rather than showing their emotions. Surely if Mawlana jalali is wrong in his daleel he will do ruju'

    Wassalam.
     
  2. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    I am aware of this but we will have a better chance of dealing with them, if Jalali sahib considers whether this battle is worth it, or would it better to consider the long term war against the deviant sects including the Tafdhlis and Tahir ul Qadri (who has come out of this issue with more credit and that can be problematic). The sunni scholars when they visited Jalali sahib said that he got the masla right but he should apologise on the wording and the matter of speech. These were not jahil pir Sahiban, these were sincere sunni scholars who wanted to calm the waters. By what Qari Tayyab is recommending won't give credence to Jalali's sahib's opponents, it will actually shut them up. If they do then still speak out, then Jalali sahib will then be in a better position to go on the attack and academically refute these Jahil pir Sahiban. He will also have a lot more support in this refard too.

    There is another important point to be raised from this issue and likeminded issues. Our scholars in this day and age also need to understand their role. The need of our time is to safeguard the principles that were laid out by pious predecessors and to preserve our unity. This means sometimes the scholars should weigh up their 'tahqeeq' with the effect it will have on our principles before resolutely promoting it. I am not naive to think there are not agendas out there that are working to destroy this unity and infiltrate our ranks. However, that is more reason for Sunnis to stop getting emotional, and for our scholars to steadfastly preserve our principles (on this issue; I am not sure Jalali sahib is) rather than feeling the need to promote their view or 'tahqeeq'. More wisdom and foresight is required as well as knowledge. I ask again what does Jalali Sahib or Sunnis lose out, if he does apologise and what will he and Sunnis gain by not?
    Whether we agree with Qari Tayyib's new stance but I again reiterate this is why it would have been better for Jalali Sahib to apologise. The fallout came out from the original clip, where many of us agreed that the wording and the way Jalali was speaking was not befitting. Even though the explained the masla correctly (despite this new stance), like Qari Tayyab, he should have apologised and then clarified his stance. As I mentioned before, what benefit have Sunnis had of him remaining resolute and constantly replying and 'clarifying' his stance. Sometimes it is better to look at the bigger picture. Qari Tayyab's deciding to remove 'khata Ijtihadi' from the next edition of his tafseer does not mean he believes he has erred but in light of the current climate and because a new more appropriate stance has come to light, he's decided to go with that. If this new stance is acceptable, then this is time for Jalali Sahib to take the same stance and close this issue. As Qari Sahib said, it won't affect his status and will also allow him to go on to continue the great work he has been doing. More importantly, it will would safeguard the unity of sunnis. Those people who have been saying that what reason is there for him to apologise and it's because of the manner of his wording and speech in the original speech. I ask, what benefit is there for Sunnis if Dr Sahib does not apologize and continues to constantly respond and make new videos on the issue? What will the upshot be?
     
  3. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Active Member

    Brother Waqar, I agreed with you in the outset but now there is a propaganda machine being fueled by jahil pir sahiban against jalali sahib. There is one side (Mawlana jalali) that has dalil and thuboot from the ulama and another side fueled by emotional blackmail and jealousy.
     
  4. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    Whether we agree with Qari Tayyib's new stance but I again reiterate this is why it would have been better for Jalali Sahib to apologise. The fallout came out from the original clip, where many of us agreed that the wording and the way Jalali was speaking was not befitting. Even though the explained the masla correctly (despite this new stance), like Qari Tayyab, he should have apologised and then clarified his stance. As I mentioned before, what benefit have Sunnis had of him remaining resolute and constantly replying and 'clarifying' his stance. Sometimes it is better to look at the bigger picture. Qari Tayyab's deciding to remove 'khata Ijtihadi' from the next edition of his tafseer does not mean he believes he has erred but in light of the current climate and because a new more appropriate stance has come to light, he's decided to go with that. If this new stance is acceptable, then this is time for Jalali Sahib to take the same stance and close this issue. As Qari Sahib said, it won't affect his status and will also allow him to go on to continue the great work he has been doing. More importantly, it will would safeguard the unity of sunnis. Those people who have been saying that what reason is there for him to apologise and it's because of the manner of his wording and speech in the original speech. I ask, what benefit is there for Sunnis if Dr Sahib does not apologize and continues to constantly respond and make new videos on the issue? What will the upshot be?
     
  5. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Sayyid Mash'hadi says Allah forgave sayyidah رضي الله عنها for her momentary anger.

     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
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  6. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Qari Tayyib has said he will remove the words khata ijtihadi from his tafsir.

     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Farooq sahib hafizahullah essentially says the same thing Abu Hasan said above.

    The anti Jalali Sunni side just list out the charges against him and state the fiqhi ruling upon him for those charges (preferably in writing). Then the pro and anti (Sunni) sides can sort it out methodically.

    That video is a very good watch for anyone who can use his head properly. Highly recommended.
     
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  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Mufti Muneeb has spoken. Eye opener for those attacking Jalali sahib.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Really? Rafidis so desperate they need the help of idolators?







     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    That video is removed by the uploader for some reason. Still available here. Please download and keep it

     
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    his talk in question is included in this video linked by brother Yaseen in the other rifd creeping in Ahlus Sunnah thread



    lol... he says he has references from 350 books of Sunnis that Sayyidina Ali radi Allahu 3anhu is afzal al bashar right after the Prophet 3alaihis salam bypassing even other ambiya... dunno who gave this clown the microphone

    wonder if he can give a detailed references list from those 350 books
     
  13. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    BTW the man in the video refuting jalali sahib is a minhaji rafidi who has said ahl bayt are greater than prophets. Munawwar jamati has entertained him on stage previously.
     
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    whoever says jalali sahib should apologise should first put it in writing why he should do that.

    if anyone claims he committed gustakhi, let them show their scholarly abilities and put down in writing from books of kalam and fiqh (from sunni books - not rafidi works) and then we will see.

    if they are unable to do it, then i won't waste my time. anyone who is not able to do that - PUT IT DOWN IN WRITING with proof and citations is not worth bothering.

    let them all show their ilmi liyaqat. if there is indeed some aspect which we are unable to see - then help us see. emotional rants of two hours is of no use. i need to see a fatwa or a scholarly critique on why jalali sahib needs to do tawbah. all else is PR and media-management that we see these days in every field - politics, academia, health or even religion.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
     
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I'm terribly sorry for using the word "industry" in my above post. I should've said "mafia". That is the reality of "Sunni" khanqahs and peerkhanas.

    He clarified umpteen times that he was referring to khata ijtihadi. Going beyond that is kneeling in front of the rafidis. Allahu a3lam if some other otherwise "Sunni" shuyukh have been offered a "fair price" for compromising their aqidah, or if they or their families have been threatened, or if they were merely clueless and knowledgeless firebrand speakers to start with and only now their qualifications are surfacing.

    It's a shameful episode for Desi Sunnis and makes one wonder what really is worse for us:

    1) intra "Sunni" bullying against Sunni aqaid
    2) deobandi deception
    3) the enmity of the hindutvawadis

    I honestly can't make up my mind what's worse
     
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  16. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    The reality is sunniyat either has a price or cannot prevent egos getting in the way. Jalali Sahib even though if he felt he explained the masla correctly, he should have apologised for using the word 'Khata'. This would have cooled down the fire and stopped his opponents from getting free shots in. He is now making clarifications and responses on a daily basis, and the matter is not dying down. Sometimes it is better to consider the bigger picture and put the unity of sunniyat first. His current stance is doing nothing for the betterment of sunnis.
     
  17. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I've also heard from someone reliable that this is payback for that calling out that peer Hassan Haseebur Rehman guy on his tafzili bayan (regardless if he's an actual tafzili ideologue true to his manhaj or if he's just a khanqah shopkeeper and took off on an ego trip because he was called out), and of course some anti-Hassan innocent shuyukh too got afflicted.

    Do note that Dr Jalali's video in question is from January, and all this hoohaa started only in June. They really tried hard to find something against him.

    Also this multi millionaire Haseebur Rehman has very good links to foreign dignitaries and diplomats in Islamabad. So a lot of these murgha munching khanqah peers simply can't afford to not take his side. They need him to arrange foreign (western) visas for them so they can hold their foreign trips and build their fan followings over there, finance their gigs, and so on. This is true and an open secret in the peeri-mureedi "industry" regardless if Hassan and his stooges are behind Jalali's vilification or not!

    For many many people, Sunniyat too is nothing more than a cut-throat "industry".
     
  18. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

    I'm not one for conspiracies but the witch hunt against dr jalali is being fuelled by factions who have an agenda against him. He's just given his opponents an opportunity and they're making the most of it
     
  19. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    People are really overreacting now. We all agree that sahabah and ahl al-bayt can commit khata ijtihadi. If it's possible for them, and we accept it even for prophets, like Adam عليه السلام, then how can it be insult?

    The most Mufti Ashraf Jalali has done is attributed khata ijtihadi to Sayyidah Fatimah رضي الله عنها when it wasn't actually a mistake. She wasn't aware of the hadith. Which is an opinion some ulama hold.

    1. To attribute khata ijtihadi to sayyidah isn't insult.
    2. If a person has attributed it whilst she didn't commit it, the person is simply mistaken. He hasn't insulted her. You can highlight his mistake.
    3. If a person has attributed it and sayyidah did commit it, the person is correct but it's best not to use the word khata out of respect for sayyidah.

    These fatawa that are flying about are ridiculous. It's pure extremity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
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  20. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Sayyid Ahmad Saeed Kazmi on Fadak

    IMG-20200628-WA0005.jpg
     

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