Fadak and khatā

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Aqdas, Jun 15, 2020.

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  1. izz al-Din

    izz al-Din Well-Known Member

    Salam
    Could you translate this brother?
    Fiqh alAkbar(quote)

     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    request to post only fadak, khata or jalali sahib related posts here. all other related topics - especially that are informational may go in their own threads.

    and post a link to the thread in this one if you think it is related here.
     
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    after watching the speech of qari zawar sahib, we should indeed congratulate ourselves.

    this is the maslak of alahazrat. we will not spare anyone if they step out of line of ahl al-sunnah.

    apropos to sh. saeed foudeh's comments that alahazrat's followers are fanatical and will not brook any criticism of alahazrat, he can see why alahazrat is the mainstay of ahl al-sunnah in the subcontinent.

    as a rock-solid representative of the jama'ah, it appears as if he IS the jama'ah.

    sh. fiqh al-akbar:

    sh. fiqh alakbar.png
     
  4. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    Allamah Saeed Asad has been all over the place in the issue, which is probably stemming from previous issues with Jalali Sahib. Alhamdulillah, He has ostensibly left the opposition camp and instead concentrating on the Rafzis.

    Syed Irfan Shah just need to take step back and evaluate his role because he is in danger of losing the support of the sunni public.

    Syed Muzaffar Shah has gone quiet, so maybe he has decided better to take the back seat. Obviously, the family issues have made it hard for him.

    The others obviously have their own agenda. Overall, like @AbdalQadir said, this was not an issue that should have reached this stage. it just shows the lack of unity and above all sincere leadership in our ranks
     
  5. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Well-Known Member


    @AbdalQadir Saeed Asads statement from 11:35 onwards.

    According to his weak intellect "there was never even any form of discussion on requesting Fadk and it's all just a made up story"
     
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    my support. don't give these rafidis a free pass.
     
    Noori likes this.
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Noori likes this.
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Yes, and since the conversation never took place, there's no question of "jis waqt maang rahi theen, khata par theen" (my understanding of Irfan Shahs contention)

    This is what I understand Irfan Shah to be conveying in the interview to sabri.

    that's why he mentioned in the sabri interview about 3 other turuq of narrations on the matter that purportedly don't mention a direct meeting/conversation...

    and boasted that he could've responded to rawafid from another '10 different angles' without committing the enormity that Jalali did.
    ----
    if someone thinks I got it wrong, please correct me. I reiterate, denying the request for Fadak absolutely (whether in person or through delegation) will be more than jahil and stupid

    not from me. In my post #92, I said I need to study the veracity of Irfan Shah sahab's claims.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ok. so this is the issue.

    anything else?
     
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    if there is confusion, it is because the issue is not explained well. aqdas asked me to write something, and i was really shocked [this is deja vu] that people who have four line titles don't know basic stuff. i am not exaggerating, but i find it embarrassing to explain basic things.
     
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    @Waqar786 @sherkhan @abu Hasan

    thanks for reminding me, the other claimant was Saeed Asad

    of course. the nature of request (whether direct or through delegation) is a moot point.

    it's idiotic to suggest that asking for Fadak in itself (whether directly or through delegation) is all fiction. neither the for-Jalali nor the against-Jalali side suggests this, to the best of my knowledge.

    i'm not sure if Saeed Asad denied the request mutlaqan or only denied the asking in person.

    it will be highly absurd if the rafidi and munawwar jamati inclined camp suggests 'request for Fadak never happened mutlaqan' to appease their shia cohorts, while they indeed themselves say it did happen

    ----

    the starting point of this issue was Jalali citing a narration and saying "jis waqt maang rahi theen, khata par theen" (or something close to this)

    in the interview with sabri, irfan shah says that the specific narration Jalali cited itself is weak/maudu3 and the raawi is matrook (or something like that, watch it if interested)

    it would have been fine if the anti-Jalali side left it at that.

    but thenceforth everything spiraled out of control with discussions on the defnition of ma3soom and mahfooz, denial of khata ijtihadi, cussing, ego trips, what have you. i don't know who said what after that in regards to the event itself (requesting Fadak) or what they implied when talking about it (asking direct or asking through delegation)


    again, denying the request/event absolutely (with or without delegation) would be supremely idiotic

    ----

    everyone congratulate yourselves. our ulema have successfully made a circus of a very minor issue and they have also drawn circles round our heads.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  13. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    Yeah we've already contended that Allamah Saeed Asad's claim was incorrect. I was responding to @AbdalQadir comment about Sayida Fatima not going in person, how does the nature of the request link to Ijtihad being done or not as Shah Sahib wanted to impress on jalali sahib. This is the part that I am struggling to understand.

    The way I see it is that the nature of the request is a mute point in relation to the issue of the ijtihad.
     
  14. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Mawlana Saeed Asad claimed in one of his videos that he will bring a proof that Sayyida Fatima (radiAllahu anha) never ever asked for Fadak. So if no request was made, then where was the question of ijtihad, and consequent khata (as deemed by other camp)? Of course, Mawlana Asad never brought forth that proof.

    Mufti Chishti pooh-poohed Mawlana Asad's claim of proof and contended that request for Fadak was indeed made, but not as shias describe with usual exaggerations.
     
  15. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    In that interview looking back on it, it seemed like Shah Sahib was playing what Allamah Saeed Asad calls 'Fouls'
    .

    There seems like some personal agendas are at play because it is claimed that Syed Naveed Hasan Shah, who I think is the Sajjada Nasheen at Bikkhi Sharif privately supports Jalali Sahib's position. However, for some personal reasons, he does not make this public.

    Just a sorry state of affairs that is weakening us and our usool.
    @sherkhan but my question is what has the nature of the request got to with the issue of ijtihad?
     
  16. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    In that interview looking back on it, it seemed like Shah Sahib was playing what Allamah Saeed Asad calls 'Fouls'
    .

    There seems like some personal agendas are at play because it is claimed that Syed Naveed Hasan Shah, who I think is the Sajjada Nasheen at Bikkhi Sharif privately supports Jalali Sahib's position. However, for some personal reasons, he does not make this public.

    Just a sorry state of affairs that is weakening us and our usool.
     
  17. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Mufti Fazl Chishti's point was not that the meeting never took place, but it was an informal meeting/request; after all both Sayyidna Abu Bakr Siddiq (radiAllahu anhu) and Sayyida Fatima (radiAllahu anha) were related to each other.

    What he refuted was the shia lie that Sayyida gave a long speech in the court/presence of Sayyidna abu Bakr (as if there was a formal court in place in those days).


    In another video, Mufti Chishti made explicit refutation of those (taking a pot shot at Mawlana Saeed Asad) who claim that Sayyida Fatima (radiAllahu anha) never ever asked for Fadak (so where was the question of ijtihad, and consequent khata, as deemed by other camp).
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  18. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    In that interview looking back on it, it seemed like Shah Sahib was playing what Allamah Saeed Asad calls 'Fouls'.
     
  19. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Well-Known Member

    Mufti Fazal Chisti analyses this and does concur that the stronger opinion is that Sayida Fatima did not go in person. However, @AbdalQadir what i don't understand what has this got to do with Ijtihad or non-ijtihad because Sayida going in person or sending a representative is a mute point in the issue of ijtihad

    What Allamah Saeed Asad claimed was that Sayida Fatima never made the request and Sayiduna Abu Bakr never declined it. Mufti Fazal Chisti refuted this by saying the evidence that he will bring will be outside the world of knowledge because he has not heard this before. What Shah Sahib os trying to say is not clear

    Even if this is a postion then it is certainly Mukhtar Mazhab that Shah Sahib deplored Jalali Sahib to put forward in public gatherings.
     
  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    irfan shah's contention as i have understood it, is not that it wasn't requested, but rather that it wasn't requested in person, as in a personal meeting, and therefore a direct conversation never took place between Sayyidah radi Allahu 3anha and Siddiqe Akbar radi Allahu 3anhu. and if the conversation itself didn't take place, there's no question of khata occuring in it, regardless of ijtihadi or non-ijtihadi.

    this was also the contention of someone else (scholar), i don't remember who now and there's 400+ posts to comb through (aside- is it possible to list out all the attachments, and media in a thread? whatsapp style)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020

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