fazl chishti insulting sadrul afadil?

Discussion in 'Siyar an-Nubala' started by abu Hasan, Dec 3, 2020.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    strange that people in our times consider themselves more knowledgeable about his khulafa than Alahazrat himself. As if he just happened to be of the circle - a mere force of circumstance.

    given the trust and esteem mawlana was held in, fazal sab can also be accused of belittling and down playing Alahazrat's firasah and even ordinary human judgement.

    If he's making a one-to-one correspondence with the times of the sahabah, he should be able to tell us which high office was entrusted to ibn ubayy, for that matter.

    The way he's compounded quotes and ayahs in a pestle reminds me of the Dickensian story in which a news reporter published a "deeply researched" column on Chinese-Metaphysics, just by reading up the Encyclopedia Britannica entries for China and Metaphysics ...
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    if a person who can read and claims to follow alahazrat is not aware of the greatness of sayyid nayimuddin muradabadi, in my book he is not an aalim worth bothering about.

    one who does not thank people for their favours has not thanked Allah.

    to translate a pertinent urdu idiom: which field is this radish from? [non-urdu speakers excuse].

    sayyid nayimuddin muradabadi is an excellent author and an accomplished aalim. and a sayyid, if you have not noticed. indirectly, we are his students by way of reading his tafsir, his books and benefiting from his students.

    i will certainly be offended if an upstart with awful reasoning skills, tries to fault - nay, abuse and slander sadru'l afaDil. and we will refute him.

    strangely, he takes a hardline stand like that of khawarij and abuses our elders like rawafid. like many such puffed up heads, he too will fall away by the roadside.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.

    ulama might have erred on masa'il and issues; but you cannot compare that with fazl chishti's stupid rants (laced with choice abuses). he is riling against sadru'l afazil for absolutely no reason. he ought to have his head examined.
  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    The brothers i asked said they've heard it before (dunno how much before) and said that he generally gives them headaches with his attitude that he's the only true representative of Ala Hazrat, despite being very objective on some matters.

    In another video of his on the topic of yazeed, Fazal Chishti himself said there's no aalim that hasn't erred and no fast running stallion who hasn't crashed into something.

    Guess he too crashed here.

    I failed to see the relevance of Imam Abdul Wahhab Sha3rani's citation here (assuming correctly quoted).

    So the various relationships between the awliyaa and luminous scholars and those in their halaqaat can be mapped to the various relationships between Huzoor 3alaihis salam and those around him. There's those who are as close and loyal as Sayyidina Abu Bakr was to Huzoor 3alaihis salam, as well as those like ibn ubai.

    So how does Sayyidi Naeemuddin Muradabadi's relationship to Ala Hazrat map to ibn ubai's devious behaviorisms? Did he cause rifts between mureeds of Ala Hazrat, start fights, spread rumors, take sneaky and disgusting potshots at Ala Hazrat or subcontinental Sunnis, envy his status etc?
  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Exact opposite for me. His personal indiscretions are his problem. In that regard Shah Turabul Haq Sahab's statement is very apposite to consider him not a wali but rather an advocate for Muslims.

    My issue is with the damage to Muslim life and property at partition, and the izzat and freedom of those supposedly rescued Muslims being directly proportional to the entrapment and zillat of those staying behind. (We're told 'aapko kisne roka tha Pakistan aane se' without realizing that draining out an entire diaspora from a land is a logistical impossibility).

    Maybe an argument can be made that Jinnah didn't foresee the violence at partition, but he couldn't have possibly thought that those staying behind would all live like kings in Lal qila and Chandni Chowk.

    Plus the nation that was formed adopted the entire administrative infrastructure of the british. No one is suggesting he could have established a fully functional Shariah state and didn't, but he was ahead of his time on the secular outlook for Pakistan.

    At least the "keede makode" Bengalis formed Bangladesh not in the pretense of Riyasate Madinah but rather as anything that's just not under the control of west pakistan, and today they're doing better than them on any metric. (It escapes me which famous politician/military general of pakistan called the Bengali Muslim brothers "keede makode")

    Anyways that's just our thoughts, and one way or another your or my thoughts on Jinnah are typically unwelcome by our Pakistani brethren.
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    aayat be maHal istiymal karke musalmanon ki takfir karna khawarij ka shewa hai jis ki badbuu is shakhs ke munh aati hai...
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in other words, fazl chishti rejects the hadith of RasulAllah SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    unki talwar se unhi ki gardan udh jayegi.

    woh kayse? lo suniye:

    bukhari, h2946.png

    to is fazl chishti ko kis ne haq de diya? hamen tawjih na bataO. alHamdulillah, is hadith ke sahih ma'ana hum bhi jante hain.

    magar mawsuf ki apni mantiq hai, aaqilon ki nahin.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  7. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    fazl chishti should probably read shuruh of ashbah. and sadru'l afazil raDiyAllahu anhu ke koyi shagird ko talash karen aur un ke jootey sidhe karen. shayad inki kam-bakht jholi mein ilm ke kuch zarrey padh jayen.

    maze ki baat ye hai, ke janab ne kafir ko haq de diya ke RasulAllah ke qanoon ko qabul na kare!
    aur jab in wuzara ko kafir kaha to tumhare hi faysla ke mutabiq,unko haq hasil tha na?

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  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    madness. arrogance. jahalat aur us par ghurur.

    apparently, presenting the nizam of mustafa for 'approval' is kufr. and when rejected it is kufr by those rejecting AND those who proposed!

    menu bahut dukh hoya [pardon my punjabi transliteration; my knowledge of the language is very very cursory. but i have punjabi friends who help me understand].

    kaash ke alahazrat ke khulafa meiN, ye nayimi na hota ... nayimuddin moradabai na hota. kaash ke ye na hota.
    bahut dukh se kahna padhta hai, main hayran ho gaya hoon, ke mister jinnah ki mujrim league ko musalmanon ki jama'at kahta raha;

    aur phir zulm e azeem dekho, ke pakistan ban gaya hai. hazrat wafd lata hai abdul hamid badayuni ka; fulan fulan ka... karachi mein wuzara'a se waziron se kahte hain bhai nizam e mustafa. hum ne kaha aap aayeen bana kar den. hum issambly (assembly) mein pesh karenge agar manzoor ho jaye to hum nafiz kardenge.

    to phir hazrat ne kaha..chalo aleel hoon...alalat mein ye khidmat karta hoon kaam karta hoon. aap ne gyara nikaat wala aayeen tayyar kiya... hayat e sadrul afazil kitab mein likha huwa hai...haan ji...woh banaya aap ne...aur janab ji utha wuzara ko pesh kiya gaya...lekin bad qisamti se wo wuzara jo hain...woh assembly mein pesh na ho saka manzoor na ho saka...fulaan..

    OOOOOFsooos ho sakta hai tera iman zaa'ya hogaya nayimuddin muradabadi
    ho sakta hai tera iman zaa'ya hogaya ho!

    tum ne itna bada kufr [suluk?] kiya ke Allah ke rasul ke din ko tu isamblee (assembly) mein manzoori ke liye pesh kar raha hai ke ye **@$%^*** kuttey agar manzoor karenge to theek warna [....] hogaya. in kafiron ko radd o qabul ka kis ne kaha?

    RasulAllah ka qanoon nabi nain radd kar sakta. ye kafir ko haqq hasil hai. jab kafir hota hai usko ye haq hasil hai ke RasulAllah ke qanoon, Islam aur deen ko qabul kare ya na kare. kyun ke kafir hai. jab iman wala hojata hai agar samjhe ke woh ikhtiyar hai to woh khud kafir hai. agar doosra samjhe ise ikhtiyar hai to woh bhi kafir hai.

    [punjabi...] hakka bakka rah gay main ye gal padh ke...[]

    fazl chishti quotes the verse of the qur'an ahzab, s33 v36:


    it does not for a believing man or a believing woman, when ALlah and His Rasul have decreed in a matter, that they should have a choice in their affairs.


    apart from the fact that the entire episode is a figment of his imagination and the product of a stunted mind. and based on it, he belittles a prominent sunni aalim and a teacher of great scholars.
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  10. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    It is hard to fault Jinnah for ensuing bloodshed. It was neither his wish nor (do I think) his actions led to it. It is hard to fault Jinnah the statesman or to deny his role in creation of Pakistan. In my mind, he deserves the title of father of Pakistan. If he lacked vision to establish a true Islamic state, then he wasn't the first/only/last leader to have failed to do so. He didn't live long enough to be judged on that count.

    What makes me antagonistic to Jinnah? His unislamic lifestyle and outlook. Per se, it was a personal choice for him, but what galls me is how some sunni aalims and majority of awaam deify him and anoint him as a wali.
    abu Hasan likes this.
  11. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Having replayed the clip, I fail to understand what Fazl Chishti is trying to fault Sayyidi Sadrul Afadhil for.

    That he prepared 11 point charter for the basis of the Islamic state of Pakistan? Or that he expected or hoped for the charter to be ratified by the Pakistan assembly (a secular body that as per Fazl Chishti had no locus standi on this matter)?

    By what stretch of imagination can any attempt to create a charter be faulted? If not in the assembly, how else would such charter have become enshrined in constitution? What is objectionable about any of the points in the charter (as posted by aH, page 195)?

    ... and then to go foul-mouthing and denigrating Sayyidi Sadrul Afadhil for envisaging an Islamic state?

    Completely off the hinges.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  12. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I'm baffled. What conclusion did I make? I admitted my lack of knowledge if he converted from Ismaili to Sunni Muslim or not. I've heard what you said, in casual conversations and therefore said I don't know if it's an urban myth.

    As for the ensuing bloodshed of Muslims at the partition, no one can deny it happened and that it was the direct result of the partition.
  13. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    You seem too quick to make conclusions.

    I don't know whether jinah was a muslim or not, his sister fatimah jinnah says in her book "my brother" that they belonged to ismaily khoja family, but there are many favorable reports and other evidence that he converted to islam, and you can find a couple of books on this topic on the internet (search marfat.com). his janazah was performed by a deobandi molvi, and many great sunni ulama supported him (Mr. Jinnah) and even considered him a wali. So, the best is to keep quiet and leave it for judgment day.

    saying that giving the title of Quid-e-Azam is kufr is absurd, he was quaid-e-azam for the creation of pakistan, not the quid-e-azam of the entire muslim ummah.

    after listening to what fazal chisti has said about Sadr'ul AfaDil rahimahulalh, i really hate him, he has no adab and is full of arrogance, now I know why his own teacher mufti irshad hussain jhandyalvi didn't like him, he is one of his mabghuD students.
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  14. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    You took the words out of my mouth. I couldn't post earlier.

    I don't know if it's an urban myth or what but a lot of Pakistani folks believe he converted to Ahlus Sunnah.

    The "harshest" opinion on jinnah I heard from a Pakistani Sunni was by Shah Turabul Haq Sahab who said 'hum unko wali Nahin kahenge, balke musalmanon ke wakil aur khayrkhwah'. That too is very generous for me. I feel Jinnah is personally responsible for the death and destruction of Muslim lives and properties at partition time. I think he was quite the opposite in fact.

    One other Sunni aalim i asked in pakistan (not a celebrity) was the only one who ever said, if we openly speak against Jinnah we will make enemies and people will run from us, coz the awam considers him a savior of Desi Muslims. Allahu a3lam how many other Pakistani Sunni scholars secretly feel this way and just subscribe to this public image of Jinnah.

    Personally, I wish pakistan too has a Muslim version of the "sangh parivar" that is de-gandhiizing india, and pakistan eventually gets de-jinnahized and established proper Shariat.

    Ironically for Khadim Rizvi sahib whom Fazal Chishti Sahab is against, he too raised this point of death and destruction at partition time, and which elite politician screamed "Pakistan ka Matlab laa ilaha ilAllah" or which elite politician worked towards establishing shariat? (Separate thread posted by @sherkhan)

    An aside, one Pakistani Sunni brother (non mufti) told me that he believes it as haram/kufr to use the apellation of 'Quaide Azam' as according to urdu/farsi usage this title is only applicable to Prophet 3alaihis salam. Allahu a3lam, never bothered to investigate myself 'coz I just don't call him that.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in which case he is not only jaahil of our times, but is also ignorant of history.

    where did sadru'l afadil say so?
    how did fazl chishti arrive at that conclusion?
    or did he have ilham or waHy?

    i won't argue about this. jinnah was an ismaili khojah with a secular outlook - somehow he was dramatically transformed into a religious figure and a waliy!! old timers on the forum know about my opinion of jinnah.

    pakistan not being an islamic state is also true. but these valid points are no reason to slander a prominent sunni aalim.

    exactly what is the problem with sadru'l afadil? except madcap delusions of this bey-adab maulvi, who is incapable of understanding a few urdu pages raving like a madman and using bazaari language.

    tuff hai.

    sayyidi sadru'l afadil would say: 'sakht kalami ajz ki nishani hai'

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2020
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    see my post below.

    a 'mufti' who is not aware of his times is an utter jahil.

    fazl chishti probably thinks that starting from abu bakr al-siddiq upto bahadur shah zafar, from the farthest maghreb to the aqSa'l east, every ruler was a waliy who strictly followed shariah or promulgated the shariah and was khilafat e rashidah!

    voting might be a dajjalic system, but if you do not vote, you will be ruled by dajjals and you will have no say in what they do. look at indian muslims and their bad choices.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  17. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    the voice is unmistakenly that of Mufti Fazl Chishti. I don't think it is doctored.

    From what I gather (as I have hastily run through the clip), his main grouse against Sadrul Afadhil is his unconditional support for Jinnah. In Fazl Chishti's eye Jinnah was a kafir and Pakistan is not an Islamic state. Fair and brave point (and I agree with him on that count). But he has no business casting aspersion on Sadrul Afadhil and belittling his contributions; he should keep his mistaken views to himself. If support for Jinnah is problematic to Fazl Chishti, then hardly any statured aalim will escape his censure.


    see my other post on Mufti Fazl Chishti's view on Mawlana Khadim Husain Rizwi here
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    where are those charges made by the speaker (until it is proven that it is fazl chishti, i will refer to the person as speaker)?

    old hayat-sadrulafazil p191.png

    old hayat-sadrulafazil p192.png

    old hayat-sadrulafazil p193.png

    old hayat-sadrulafazil p194.png

    old hayat-sadrulafazil p195.png
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  19. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    This is not fazal chishti, the voice and the style does not match at all
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    his reasoning is utterly stupid and only his backwater bunch of village bumpkins will agree with it.

    if i do ta'wilat like him, i can send him anywhere i want to. if your logic is in free fall, you can prove anything.

    for example, based on the video clip AQ posted, and according to this madman's logic:

    - he should prepare for his seat in hellfire.

    - he is attributing a lie to RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam

    - he is claiming to have waHy

    - therefore he is claiming to be a prophet

    - therefore he is the same as ghulam qadiyani

    - therefore he is murtadd, wajibu'l qatl

    [al-iyadhu billah; this is not according to sane minds, but a madman's wild logic like that of fazl chishti]

    ask me how?

    1. he said that: "na khuda raazi na Rasul raazi"

    2. how does he know?

    3. is it in the qur'an or hadith that "asking for votes (for whatever reasons) neither Allah raazi na Rasul raazi"?

    4. if not, then attributing to Allah and Rasul is an utter falsehood.

    5. attributing falsehood to RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam is a guarantee for a place in hellfire.

    6. secondly how does he know that Allah is not raazi with this?

    7. so he claims waHy

    8. in other words he claims to be a prophet

    9. one who claims prophethood after our nabiy sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam is murtadd wajibu'l qatl.

    10. and similar to qadiyani.

    [as i have said, the above is according to free fall logic of this man; not my own opinion]

    in defence if he tries to explain his statement: tell him in his boorish village accent: abbey OOOOYe! sharam kar sharam kar tusi sharam kar.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020

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