Ghalib Verses AlaHazrat

Discussion in 'Poetry' started by Aqib alQadri, Dec 12, 2016.

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  1. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    sorry, this doesn't fit here at all, everybody here can notice the burning of your heart. we are salves of Mola Ali KarramAllaho Wajhul Karim, but unlike you this slavery is not titular, we respect his words and do not disparage ahl al-sham (ahmad, mishkaat).


     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2007
  2. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    it is quite obvious for those reading both poets comparatively but atleast there is some kind of agreement amongst you brothers and sisters of borrowing. if had more time surely it would have been very interesting....meaning you guys would have presented some insights on poetry in general. the fact that Ustad Ghalib was earlier in time makes it more interesting!



    jaatay jaatay Ustad Ghalib ka ek aur andaaz ba Huzur e Ameer al-Momineen(A):

    eendhan banana mujh ko jahannam ka eh khuda
    key dushmanay Ali ka kaleja jala sakun
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2007
  3. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    ala hazrat is a litmus test for sunnism, who ever reviles him is certainly a transgressor. don't misunderstand, I am not saying that one is transgressor because he reviles ala 'hazrat, but rather ala 'hazrat's pen cuts transgressor's heart so deep like a machete that he cannot hide his animosity, and start doing mudslinging. so you flunked this test too.

    no doubt ala 'hazrat used some of the toughest meters that galib had used that only masters can dare. If you compare ala 'hazrat's naat with ghalib's ghazals, you will notice that ala 'hazrat verses are a riposte of the verses by ghalib as sidi aH has noted, but you consider it as imitation.

    yeh raza kay naizay ki maar hay, kay 'adu kay seenay main ghaar hay
    kisay charah joi ka war hay, kay yeh war war say bhi paar hay.

    dil-e-'adaa ko raza taiz namak ki dhun hay
    ik zara or chirakta rahay khama taira.

     
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    let us take the second example:
    ghalib:
    ghuncha e naa-shagufta ko duur sey mat dikha key yuN
    bosey ko poochtaa huN maiN, munH se mujhe bataa key yuN
    do not pucker up and show me: 'like this'
    i ask about a kiss, show me with you lips.

    naturally titillating ghalib. [i have used prof.salim chishti's sharH deewan-e-ghalib and he says: ghuncha e naashagufta could be possibly taken as the lips of the beloved, curled as in this context]

    but one must see their intihaa to appreciate alaHazrat's subtle refutation. in this ghazal ghalib ends the ghazal in this manner. [abu nibras may please correct me in my calling it a ghazal]
    jo yeh kahey ki reekhta, kyuN kar ho rashk e farsi
    gufta e ghalib ek baar, paRh key usey sunaa key yuN
    if anyone asks, 'how can urdu compete with farsi? [in poetic beauty]'
    show him the verse of ghalib and say: 'like this.'
    [reekhta is urdu's archaic name]

    and alaHazrat's rejoinder is something we admire:
    jo kahey sheyr o paas e shara'a, donoN ka Husn kyuNkar aay
    laa usey peysh e jalwah e zamzamah e razaa key yuN

    if anyone asks, 'how can beauty of poetry and regard for divine law converge?'
    bring him here in the radiance of raza's poetry and say: 'like this'.
    and yeah, it is of a similar meter, but as they say in arabic: shattaan...
     
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    whoa!
    wait a minnit.

    as usual, our friend mis.Hidayah prefers the slavery of the literal word. let the meaning or context take a hike.

    ghalib was a great poet and magician with words; and so were imru al-qays and mutanabbi. i am still wondering why did this discussion drag into another. i was not arguing about the line of being a slave of 'abu turab'; even we would pride in that. the point was that your 'claim of slavery' is only lip service. and a proof for that charge is coming up.

    meanwhile your various stretches of dropping names is oh-so juvenile. ghalib might have been allama fazl e Haqq's classmate; but while one was a drunkard, the other was an activist.

    i wonder why do i even answer you.

    ---
    let us examine these verses.

    ghalib [even ghalib is not properly quoted by m.H! ]:
    dil hi to hai na sang o khisht, dard sey bhar na aaye kyuN
    royeNge hum hazaar baar, koyi hameN rulaye kyuN.

    it is a heart after all, not a stone or a brick;
    why should it not overflow with emotion?
    we weep a thousand times,
    why should anyone make us cry?

    as far as its poetic merit is concerned, it is a well-known and classy ghazal; yet a couplet from this ghazal is:
    haaN woh nahiN khuda parast, jaaO woh bewafaa sahi
    jis ko ho deen o dil azeez, uski gali meiN jaaye kyun

    yea, he is not pious; agreed that he is a renegade
    why would anyone who treasures his heart and religion walk in her street?

    in other words: i am lost in her love and in her love i am transgressing limits set by religion; and anyway, why would one who loves his religion go to her street?

    it was this idea which alaHazrat so beautifully refuted in his rejoinder. and yet there are people who keep scratching at fences instead of coming inside the garden.
    phir ke gali gali tabaah, ThokareN sab ki khaay kyuN
    dil ko jo `aql de khudaa, teri gali sey jaay kyuN

    why would anyone wander the streets scorned and wretched; ousted by all -
    if the Lord gives the heart a mind, why would anyone leave your street?

    where ghalib is obsesses with his lover's street and is unwelcome as indicated in other couplets of the same ghazal:
    waN woh ghurur e `izz o naaz, yaN ye Hijab e paas e waza'a
    rah meiN hum mileN kahaN, bazm meiN woh bulaaye kyuN

    so ghalib is unwelcome and yet sits wretched in her street; and alaHazrat says that if you had sense, you would rather sit in the Prophet's street sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam. and if you did, you would not be wretched as ghalib complains:
    dayr nahiN Haram nahiN dar nahiN aastaN nahiN
    bayThey haiN rahguzar pey hum, ghayr hameN uThaye kyuN

    it is not a temple; nor a sanctuary; nor a home; nor a court
    i am sitting on the pavement, why should anyone expel me?
    far from the accusation of 'copying a baHr', even if he did it was NOT in admiration of ghalib as a person.

    and which was refuted by alahazrat,
    rukhSat e qāfiley ka shor, ghash sey hameN uThaye kyuN
    sotey haiN un key saaye meiN koyi hameN jagaaye kyuN
    the commotion of the departing caravan, why should anyone shake us from our slumber?
    we sleep in his shade, why does anyone awaken us?

     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2009
  6. 1. Can you please bring evidence that Ala Hazrat visited his grave and had it decorated.
    2. Quoting a great Urdu poet doesn't mean one agrees with everything that poet said or wrote. Ulama quote all sorts of people to decorate their speeches...it doesn't mean they agree with them all. I've heard ulama quote the greatest ghazal writer in Urdu Mir Taqi Mir who definitely was a Shia; I've heard them quote Faiz sahib who was a Communist and I've heard them quote Josh Malihabadi who was an apostate. Any educated person from the Subcontinent had to know the great poets to be considered a man of belles lettres...so that doesn't prove anything.
     
  7. Yes this is true and it is the only reason why I am hopeful that Ghalib --despite his cutting remarks about the khulafa e rashideen and his verses to that effect--was nevertheless a sunni at heart. btw, if you read ghalib's Life and Letters you will see that although he was friends with Mawlana Fazle Haqq their religious views were often different and GHalib only agreed to write a poem in praise of Mawlana's position on the Imtina e Nazir debate because he was his friend. Indeed, the first nazm Ghalib wrote was actually neutral so Mawlana was disappointed and said you are my friend and you were supposed to write in support of my position. Then Ghalib wrote it again to please his friend. Remember Ghalib was a very loyal friend and amongst his closest friends were hindus too.

    I love Ghalib but i don't let my love of the man colour my religious convictions.
     
  8. bhai,
    urdu [and farsi/arabic] have a set number of classical meters [bahr] in poetry to which all poets whether ghalib or ala hazrat have to adhere to. even non-muslim urdu poets like firaq gorakhpuri have poets in the same meter as ghalib. can i say using your logic that because firaq has the same meters in his poems as ala hazrat that he was really a sunni and not a hindu!

    i hope ghalib was a sunni but in any case it doesn't affect his stature as a poet. if you read his diwan though there are, sadly, clear verses in which he mocks those who support the first 3 caliphs. i dont have the diwan on me but i will find them next time i have it. you can just read khurshid ahmad and ralph russell's translation of ghalib's letters...
     
  9. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member


    Chalo aap chothay ko nahin mantay to kam az kam pehlay Teen ko to mantay hain!
     
  10. abu nibras

    abu nibras Staff Member

    pyare bhai,

    urdu meiN apni salim ya muzahif shakl mein hi istemaal hone waali buHoor ki taddad jumla
    19 hai , agar behes waqayi behr ki hoti to koi aisa shayir nahiN jo in 19 buHoor ke ya unke [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]saalim ke saath muzaahif shakloN [/FONT]ke ulat pher se bahar nikla ho.

    ghaliban aap ka ishaara ghazal ki zameen ke istemaal par hai. to haan ala hazrat ne aisa kiya hai aur badey badey shora ne yehi kiya hai, aisa karna aik to shair ki zameen ko kharaaj hota hai, aur yeh ke aisi zarkhez zamenoun meiN mazameen acchey nikalte haiN , phir shair ko apna andaz bhi dikhana hota hai. khair.

    apke example 4 mein na to zameen aur na hi behr aik jaisi hai. ummed ke aap nazr-e-sani kar leNgey.

     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  11. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    aH: couldn't resist the pun in the title. please discuss poetry here and leave the other discussion as it were. i have moved some posts from the other discussion.


    i did not quote him as evidence but for your information most of Aalahazrat's hadaiq bakhshish has borrowed 'behrain'..i.e. wazan of Ghalib's kalam. for example brother jamati sahib consider the following examples amongst many naat sharif by aalahazrat, have a look at the rest in diwan e ghalib:

    (1) A: Phir kay gali gali tabah tohkaren sabh ki khaiy kiyon
    dil ko jo aql dey khuda teri gali sey jai kiyon


    G: Dil hi to hai na sango khist dard sey bhar na aye kiyon
    Ro'ayn gey hum hazaar bar koi hamein satayey kiyon

    (2)
    A: pochtay kiya ho arsh par yun gai Mustafa(S) key yun
    kaif key par jahan jalen koee bataye kiya key yun

    G: ghuncha e na shagufta ko door sey mat dikha key yun
    bosey ko poochta hun mein moon sey mujhey bata key yun
    (3)
    A: muzda baad hai aasiyo shafay sheh e abrar hai
    tahniyat hai ay mujrimo zaat e Khuda ghaffar hai

    G: eik jaa harfey wafa likha tha so bhee mit gaya
    zahiran kaghaz terey khat ghalat bardaar hai

    (4)

    A: kis key jalwa ki jhalak hai yeh ujaala kiya hai
    har taraf deeda e hayrat zada takta kiya hai

    G: dil naadan tujhey hua kiya hai
    akhir iss dard kee dawa kiya hai

    there are many other examples where radeef and kafiya is different but behr is the same BUT yeh 'mushtay namuna az kharwar' hai

    and Ghalib was best buddies with Molana Fazle haq khairabadi...go read up on maolanas swanih hayaat. when Allama(r) wrote imtina e nazir and ghalib read it and wrote a 'rubaee' as a taqreez on it, which is like khulasa of the whole book....subhanAllah.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2007

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