ghayr mahram women, massage and mahall e fitna

Discussion in 'Bibliography' started by sunnistudent, Nov 20, 2011.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that is good gg.

    your latest post is well-appreciated and this is the manner of sincere people. ask, if you want to learn. or tell, if you want to teach.

    since you have made your stand clear, i will also try to explain, inShaAllah why i think we cannot disagree with alahazrat. if you are not satisfied, you are free to criticize it.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
  2. brother sunnistudent sahib,

    it is clear that from all those lenghty posts, you have not answered the question. you refer to a book and give a mard e kuhustani and ask everyone to check it...why can't you just end the mystery about dabwana and malwana? and tell us all here. I will admit my error.

    as for mahall e fitna, I will tell here and now but you must also promise to tell me dabwana & malwana is allowed with conditions from books of fiqh?
  3. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Ghulam a ghaus sahab will not explain" mahall e fitna" and when he does, he won't have these questions.

    For those interested I have mentioned dur al muhtar to check the ruling ( The ruling from Imam Kuhushtani)

    This thread is a clear example for those who point fingers at scholars without even understanding the term used by those scholars!!

    Ghulam e ghaus sahab, can you please provide the reference for the quote you mentioned about Imam Rabbani (rh)?
  4. so basically it is okay to go to massage parlours as long as you're with another person?
  5. sidi abu hasan,

    what i understand is that malwana & dabwana are not allowed even if it is with two conditions: tanhai and mahall e fitna. from what i have read in hanafi fiqh, there is nothing that says it is allowed. but if you or sunnistudent can show me otherwise then i have no qualms about accpeting that i made a mistake about my understanding. perhaps, i generalised the hand shake which i take back and wait for you brothers to explain to me with reference about dabwana & malwana. thank you.
  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    yeah. just claim whatever you want, and if someone asks you for reference, do them a favor. if they keep persisting you can begin charging a fee too.

    you are scared that you will be criticized if you take a stand. if not, concerning the fatwa, what is your opinion? you asked mine, and i told you that i do not disagree.

    a) do you disagree?
    b) if so, why?
    c) the reason for your disagreement?

    concerning your derivation:

    a) is it a derivation based on the acceptance of the fatwa? (i accept the fatwa; therefore, i derive this ruling)


    b) is it a refutation of the fatwa, by mentioning this derivation? (if proposition A is correct, then prop.B should also be valid; but, since you do not accept prop.B, then how can prop.A be valid?)

    as usual, you will fret and fume that you are unfairly burdened with all this, and only you have to answer - while we don't produce anything. but this is because, you broached the topic first and you should make your stand clear.
  7. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    so you accept the fact that YOU HAVE NO CLUE what Ala Hazrat is saying in his fatwa?!


    btw, it is not Sunnistudent who is prolonging it. it is you. ulta chor kotwal ko daante!

    you make a claim, can't explain it or back it up, and then expect others to clean up your mess for you! shameful!

    were you playing fair and wanting to resolve this issue, or had you known what it means, by now you would have stated in your own words what you understand by "mahall e fitnah" as used in the fatwa.

    you were probably scared that you'd make a fool of yourself because you'd only be guessing what it means.

    hence you're turning it around on Sunnistudent to give you the definition for mahall e fitnah. you fail to realise that

    1) in this whole process you've STILL managed to lay bare your ignorance, and
    2) sadly, stuffed your foot deeper in your mouth.

    admitting lack of knowledge is not an embarrassment in Islam. Imam Ali, radi Allahu 3anhu, himself has said that "la adri" (I don't know) is half of knowledge. The sign of a man of knowledge and humility is that he doesn't pretend to know or understand everything or be right all the time.

    you should have just stated "I don't know what mahall e fitnah means. Perhaps I made a mistake in interpreting Ala Hazrat's fatwa" right in the beginning and that would have been very commendable!

  8. i second that but he won't, i think, because then he will have to provide refernces for malwana and dabwana. the very fact that my dear brother is prolonging this whole thing though i accept whatever definition he gives.
  9. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    so, basically, gg agrees that he has no clue what mahall e fitnah means (or what Ala Hazrat's imputed implication is) and yet he not only chose to interpret Ala Hazrat's fatwa, but also suggested that it could have other (fiqh) legal implications;

    notwithstanding the fact that he was trying to make some sort of a point to other posters, using that particular fatwa as a base.

    some lessons in basic Hanafi fiqh and its hijab/purdah rules are due.


    it is a humble opinion that brother Sunnistudent, should exit this loop by providing gg the definition of mahall e fitnah and the BASIC Hanafi fiqh rules on purdah/hijab topic as they relate to Ala Hazrat's fatwa and explain the fatwa properly to him.

    since this was started as a useless point-scoring game by some, it is just a humble suggestion that brother Sunnistudent finish it off with a slam dunk to save everyone's time and let them contemplate their loss.
  10. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Ghulam e ghaus sahab, if you would have just posted the text from Fatwa Ridhwiyya and asked for an explanation of the fatwa or the term" mahall e fitna" you would have got the answer long back.

    But you have portrayed that you have understood the text and after that you also deduced a ruling from the text.

    You said
    Do you see the word ''this"? Now you are shying away from even mentioning that deduction, why? If your thinking is based on that text, then it is clear that you have understood the text and if you have not understood the text and you write' from this" , then it shows you are not being honest and academic.

    I am not requesting you to provide me the sanad of hadith and fiqh of Shaykh Abdul Qadir Gilani sahab. I am only requesting you to tell me what is your understanding of that term" mahall e fitna".

    Everyone can see , this is my seventh request to brother ghulam e ghaus and I am still not getting a simple and straight answer. I would not have requested our brother to explain that term, if he would have just posted the fatwa and asked if, any one agrees with it or not. Then it was the responsibility of others to answer . But ghulam e ghaus , after quoting the text , said
    This shows that our brother has understood the text, or else how can he derive the ruling?

    Ghulam e ghaus , posted a text and deduced a ruling from that text, hence from every principle of usul and logic , he should explain the term in that text.

    Secondly, please provide the reference for the quote of Imam e Rabbani (rh). Please post the book name and page number ( if possible) and if you have read the quote , then please post the exact quote. Please.You can not make a claim and when requested for reference , you make me wait so long. At least give me a date when you will give the reference ( in case you are not at home or don't have the book now).

  11. No! dear brother, the reason we are going around in circles is because I accept that mahall e fitna is as you define it and I agree. after that YOU must show me from fiqh books 'dabwana aur malwana' from such a non-mahram woman. it is this that you are trying to avoid and it this that I am asking. I don't really care about the other 'diversions' my dear brother.

    the fatwa is that alahazrat is asked a question [relevant part] what do the ulama say about a man who has his back, his hands and his feet massaged before taking a bath and before sleeping, from na-mahram women?

    he replies that hands, back and pindli for malwana and dabwana by na-mahram is fine as long as there is no mahall e fitna and tanhai.

    what i am asking is that given the above two conditions as YOU understand them is it still allowed for malwana aur dabwana? what you fail to realise that it is not about what you say it is but its about malwana and dabwana. this clearly tells me that if it was straightforward you would not have wasted so much space in mahall e fitna but you should have given a reference fro malwana aur dabwana.
  12. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    I request you to provide your understanding of "mahall e fitna ", because you have taken the inference from the text of fatwa ridhiwyya.

    Once you do that, Insha Allah I shall quote you from Durral Mukhtar, about the permissibility of class of non mahram women touching a man.

    I also request you to provide the reference of your quote regarding Imam Rabbani Mujjadid alf thani rh.
  13. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    gg, in all fairness, you have derived a ruling from alahazrat's fatwa hence you must now tell us how you understood the term 'mahall e fitna' in order to then arrive at your ruling.
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    and yes, btw: i have no reason to disagree with the fatwa you have cited; and, i think your further derivation is wrong.
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is a good example why the 'raker' should state his agenda.

    he produced alahazrat's quote of his own volition and he is asking us about our opinions. is he testing our knowledge or showing off his own?

    if we answer this, he will go away and pick another such quote and prance around. there are thousands of such seemingly contentious quotes in thousands of books - and if we keep playing this cat and mouse game, we may need a thousand years.

    aF and gg replied with many airs (nakhrae) about 'being put in the dock' etc as if they are victimised; something i forgot to mention in my last post:
    i demand proof for your claims and if you provide your proof, you are not doing us a favor - as long as you make claims, you will be called upon to furnish the proof. unless, i make a commitment, i don't have to do anything. as for my claims, i should certainly furnish proof or admit my mistake or ignorance of the same. this rule applies to everybody.

    gg should state what he thinks of alahazrat's fatwa - he asked me whether i disagree and i told him 'most likely not.' when he gave me the reference, i said to myself: 'is he kidding?'

    remember the cycle: gg brought this up first and if he has objections to the fatwa or wants to use it as proof for his derivations, he should state it - if he is sincere, instead of teasing us. (hence the agenda)
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2011
  16. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Ghulam e ghaus sahab, I don't mind watching a You tube video, if it contains the explanation of "mahall e fitna". Also, please answer two simple and straight questions.

    1) Your understanding of the term" mahall e fitna"
    2) The reference for the quote from Imam Rabbani Rh

    I have the right to request you, because you made both the claims . So please , let this discussion be academic and not like deobandis who run away from explaining what does "crow" mean.
  17. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Ghulam e ghaus sahab, you don't have to "agree " to my definition. You have taken the inference from that quote of fatwa ridhwaiyya, so you must explain that term. You are running away from it. You are wasting time by trying to avoid a simple answer. Let me remind you what you said

    So, please tell me, how have you reached that conclusion from "this', unless you have understood the term. I will answer you question of " massaging and touching feet, back and calf muscles" once you explain the meaning of "mahall e fitna. "Please don't waste web space and please don't avoid my question.

    Please let me know , what is your understanding of "mahall e fitna"and then we can see. if we can agree to what I say.

    I don't understand why are you shying away from explaining that,once you have taken that inference from the text, what is the issue? Your inference was followed by an exclamatory mark! Please don't run around the bush, please. I have asked a simple question , that too , after you took the inference. So please don't ignore my request for the sixth time.

    Kind reminder: I will be thankful if you can provide the reference for your other claim.
  18. kattarsunni

    kattarsunni Veteran

    'mahall e fitna' means the women is not young or of a marriageable age. Ie that massage for medical purposes or shaking hands with an old woman is allowed in the Hanafi school if the woman is elderly.
  19. brother sunnistudent,

    you keep demanding mahall e fitna defintion whereas I have stated unequivocally numerous times that I accept whatever definition you provide so there is no need for arguing over that for the next ten pages! simple.

    it is not about mahall e fitna anymore, it is about what you consider as mahall e fitna and based on that and after that the next stage is:

    why waste time on something I am willing to agree with you? once, we have agreed on the point that mahall e fitna is what you say it is then is it allowed for touching and massaging?
  20. Abu Fadl

    Abu Fadl Banned

    No I have read the Urdu. I was asking you to explain it....and I'm not debating.

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