ghayr mahram women, massage and mahall e fitna

Discussion in 'Bibliography' started by sunnistudent, Nov 20, 2011.

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  1. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Mentioned where?

    If you are talking about the quote from fatwa ridhwiyya, then you need to read the answer first and then help me in understanding "mahall e fitna"

    I have proved that you did not read the answer and accused me only after reading the question!
  2. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    This is for everyone to see, who is making pointless posts! Ghulan e Ghaus sahab "derives" a ruling from a text of Fatwa Ridhwiya and then shy/ fails to explain a term in that sentence.

    The day Ghulam e Ghaus will explain his understanding of " mahall e fitna" we will see , one of the 2 things ( or may be both)

    1) his understanding of that term is wrong.
    2) shaking of hands with women can be arrived at from this! [sic] is also wrong.

    Since our brother has done this blunder, he should not feel shy in explaining this.

    Note: The deobandis raised this issue many years back and they went quiet when they were asked to explain this term.

    For those interested, please see Durr al Mukhatar and also commentary by Sayyid Ibn Abidin shami rh, where he quotes Imam Kuhustani on this topic of old women / touching etc.

    Kind reminder: I am still waiting for the reference of that quote from Imam Rabbani (rh), because this is a serious issue. And I won't call it an accusation because I am sure ghulam e ghaus sahab will provide the reference.
  3. Abu Fadl

    Abu Fadl Banned

    sunnistudent, can I ask a question to you?

    Are there any scenarios in which a man can receive a massage (on all the body parts mentioned) from a woman?

    It's for my own understanding of the masala.
  4. bhai sunnistudent,

    there is no need for me to define mahall e fitna,as I said earlier, which you may have overlooked.
    I agree with whatever definition you provide. No Problem. whatever definition you think it is, i am fine with it but what I am asking is once you have defined mahall e fitna and being alone as conditions THEN is it allowed to have touching and massaging???

    i cannot make any simpler than that and if you retrun a lengthy pointless post then there is no point me replying.

    by the way, the way this truning out i see no point for any further quotes.
  5. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Brother, before you understand my comment, I have been requesting you to provide your understanding of the term " mahall e fitna" . You are avoiding it and I don't know why!

    Let me remind you of a story which you posted

    And you also said
    It is my humble request that please stop "understanding " in between the lines. Please tell me what have you understood from the term" mahall e fitna". I am sure without understanding that term you can not think this

    I have requested this for the fourth time. And please do provide the reference for the other quote.
  6. what i understand from your comments is that it is fine to have na-mahram women touching and massaging your feet, your back and your pindli. of course, as long as no tanhai and no mahall e fitna. would you agree to that? with two conditions as above, na-mahram women can touch and massage men? I say that whatever you say mahall e fitna is, i will accept. i will also accept that shaking hands with women would be allowed with the above two conditions. so?
  7. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Ghulam e ghaus sahab , insha allah we will discuss on that. But, first let me remind you what you have posted. You said

    Since, you have 'derived" the ruling from the text, it is upon you to first explain what have you understood from the term" mahall e fitna". Because if you have not understood that term , then how can you derive that ruling??

    Please answer that simple question: What have you understood from that term " mahall e fitna".

    I shall also thankful, if you can provide the reference for your other claim

    In case you are referring this to Ala Hazrat's ruling , then let me please remind you that he laid down two conditions for this : NO TANHAI and NO MAHALL E FITNA.

    So please explain that " mahall e fitna' and try to provide the complete quote. And also, please don't ignore my question. I shall wait.
  8. sunnistudent bhai,

    i think you need to focus on touching and massaging by non-mahram and furnish an evidence from shariah for that.
  9. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Ghulam e Ghaus Sahab, I never commented on your translation. I only request for your understanding of [mahall e fitna] محل فتنہ
  10. نامحرم عورتوں سے ھاتھ اور پیٹھ اور پنڈلیاں ملوانا یا دبوانا اگر نہ تو تنھائ میں ھو نہ محل فتنہ ھو تو حرج نھیں ورنہ گناہ ھے

    you translate.
  11. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    Abu Fadl, it is always better to cross check before accusing anyone of mistranslating. I did not translate anything.

    The Urdu wordings are

    "...agar na to tanhaee mein ho na mahall e fitna ho to haraj nahi warna gunaah hai...."

    Which was translated by ghulam e ghaus as

    And I requested him to explain his understanding of " mahall e fitna" and also how he has reached this conclusion of shaking hands with women.Because the permission is with conditions and the inference by ghulam e ghaus sahab is general.

    I shall wait for ghulam e ghaus g sahab's reply, followed by the reference of the quote from Imam Rabbani (rd).

    I was talking about the answer which ghulam e ghaus has translated and Abu Fadl is looking at the question. He failed to understand what is being asked and then accuses me of mistranslation!
  12. Abu Fadl

    Abu Fadl Banned

    sunnistudent, what are you talking about? it says "naa mehrem auraton"

    I'm not saying I have the answer but don't mistranslate.
  13. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    gg sahab, can you please explain what have you understood from the term" it is not mahall e fitna"?

    Women of what age?

    Please note: Young girl child and old women do not fall under the category of " mahall e fitna"

    And Ala hazrat said" not mahall e fitna".
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    edit mod [aqdas]: the posts below are originally from this thread.

    this post and this post moved off topic and thus i moved all subsequent posts related to them here.


    i will probably not, because of the following reasons:

    a) alahazrat's knowledge is proven (and acknowledged by scholars) to be more than mine.*

    b) alahazrat's piety is well-known and his wara' is famous. i know myself, and that i am nowhere near his taqwa (though i don't say that you are not; you may be far more pious than him. certainly, it is not muhal - abu fadl can look up any aqidah text. you can ask nj to translate it for you.)

    c) even if i have access to thousands of books, but that does not put me on par with alahazrat. i should not delude myself that sitting in a library makes me eligible to pick or dismiss a bayhaqi or an ibn hajar or an alahazrat. merely downloading books from or buying the sharjah book fair, will not make me a student of hadith sciences, let alone a hafiz or a muhaddith.

    d) alahazrat's knowledge of opinions of fuqaha and hadith scholars is far greater than mine. i have spent many hours comparing his citations and the books he cites from cross-checking his evidence - and i have rarely found him amiss (almost nil). his level of accuracy is very high and there is no reason why i should not rely upon him.

    compare this with pir abdul qadir sahib or his students, whom i call the zeroing-maulvis; who zero in on a quote (picking it from secondary and tertiary sources) and do not even look beyond the citation for context or background; focussing on an apparent blemish in a beautiful scenery and insisting that the scenery is all about the blemish.

    e) alahazrat has written many books on fiqh, aqidah, hadith - and has been consistent throughout (as far as i have seen in the past fifteen years or more). there is no reason why i should doubt his ability.

    f) he is a mufti and i am not.

    and yes, i may disagree if alahazrat has differed from major fuqaha and does not have strong evidence in his favor. i mean, i will look up what other major fuqaha have said (shami, tahtawi, haskafi, nabulsi, ramli, ibn humam, ayni, babarti and others among the latter ulama.) and if i cannot find their opinion to compare, i will follow alahazrat anyway. those who read alahazrat's fatawa will know his style, and he does not dismiss elders summarily like some people do - even if he disagrees, he disagrees respectfully.

    secondly, if it is a matter of makruh/mandub, i may still stick with alahazrat because his understanding of fuqaha is far more reliable than mine; most importantly, unlike aqidah, fiqh rulings can change due to circumstances and are governed by principles of fiqh.

    also, just out of curiosity, can you please give the alahazrat and the mujaddid-e-alf-e-sani quote? obviously, i am not as well read as you are.

    and this:
    we can also try this exercise:

    you can cite as many scholars as you can for your position, and i will cite for my position that the shaykhayn are afDal (shah abdu'l aziz sahib is in our favor btw) and the bystanders can see who is a minority. citing one or two opinions and generalizing it as: there is a difference of opinion is not 'scientifically' correct. one simple rule though: every citation should be referenced and a translation of the relevant passage, or line, or half-a-line listed.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.

    *the persian saying is apt here: "how can a pinch of dust be compared with the world with everything". the only reason the comparison is mentioned is because of the question.

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2011

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