Ghazwa-e-Hind Hadith

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by abu Hasan, Mar 2, 2019.

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  1. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i hope people don't protest that i am bringing chomsky into the discussion, i just want people to have a clear understanding of the concept of nationalism. and how this figures in our discussion.
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    bismillahi'r raHmani'r raHim

    1. one of the fundamental flaws in thinking of muslims worldwide - particularly, muslim majority nations - is the concept of 'nation' as in a geographical area, 'waTan' (nation) and the waTaniyyat (nationalism) related to it. sadly, muslim scholars have also begun extolling the islamic obligation of loving one's 'waTan' to the point of being blindly obedient to the powers that be of one's waTan or standing in solidarity with such decisions made by not-so-religious political leadership. i will discuss this separately, in sha'Allah.

    iqbal's poem waTaniyyat comes to mind. see here. (whether iqbal changed his mind, i do not know; but i wholeheartedly endorse this particular poem). nationalism as in loyalty to a geographical area or a political entity, irrespective of its being in the right, is a modern and unislamic construct. as iqbal says:

    tahzeeb key aazar ney tarashwaaye sanam aur
    in taaza khudaoN mein baDa sab se waTan hai
    jo payrahan iska hai woh maz'hab ka kafan hai

    the sculptors of 'culture' have created new idols
    among these new gods, the biggest is 'nation'
    the garb of this (nationalism), is the shroud of religion

    aqwam e jahan meiN hai riqabat to isi sey
    taskheer hai maqsud e tijarat to isi sey
    khali hai sadaqat sey siyasat to isi sey
    kamzor ka ghar hota hai ghaarat to isi sey
    aqwam meiN makhluq e khuda bat-ti hai is sey
    qawmiyyat e islam ki jaD kat-ti hai is sey

    communities in the world fight on account of this (nationalism)
    to influence by conducting business is also on account of this
    politics is bereft of truthfulness because of this (jingoism)
    and the homes of the poor and weak are ruined because of this
    communities in this world are divided because of this
    this nationalism hacks at the roots of 'one islamic community'


    if you are really interested in knowing more, i recommend reading chomsky - no specific book that i can recall now, but the concept of nationalism and its tyranny is discussed in various books and talks. lots of chomsky here.

    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
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  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i will try to post my views as a series of disjoint but self-contained statements in no particular order.

    feel free to disagree or point out errors. or wish to comment or my supposed mistaken understanding, please do so too. remember, we do not want a war. i am an indian muslim, but i don't hate pakistan or pakistanis. some of my best friends - and people whom i hold in very high regard - happen to carry pakistani passports. there are some, who are citizens of other countries but were previously pakistani nationals. the point is 'pakistani' is a label that is at best a marker of geographical location of that person, without bestowing an special attractiveness or repugnance attached to it. a pakistani muslim to me, is like a somali muslim or yemeni muslim or a chinese muslim or (perish forbid!) another indian muslim.

    with Allah as my witness - i absolutely do not harbour notions of superiority based on ethnicity, nationality, colour of skin, or language or any other such external markers. superiority is only based on taqwa and ilm and such superlative attributes.

    wa lillahi'l hamd.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator


    brothers i request all of you to not get upset. allow me to clarify a few things.

    we start with the common ground: all of us are sunni muslims and all of us HERE, agree that the actions of raza academy were uncalled for. yes, some people feel more strongly about it than others - but we all agree that it was best avoided.

    i intend to write something longer, in sha'Allah, and i request that bad-tameez juhala like haris keep out of this discussion. i will delete his posts in this thread - though he is free to rant if he wants, by starting another thread. this one is meant for a serious discussion, not to feed trolls.

    but before that, a word to brother saadsohail. take this comment here:
    one can turn around the same thing and say: "pakistani muslims are supporting a government that released a blasphemer and imprisoned a sunni scholar, which is fighting to protect a wahabi terrorist". [nod to unbeknown's post]

    guilt by association, hasty generalisation, unwarranted assumptions, etc. etc.fallacies rolled into one.

    am locking the thread until i finish. will be reopened for replies, in sha'Allah.
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  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    what does the shari'ah say about "harj" in the end of times where the killer doesn't know why he is killing and the one who got killed would't know why he got killed?

    Most of us don't know for sure - just who are these armies taking their instructions from. Who are the real players calling the shots. We have seen enough number of Pakistani generals to be naive to think that by simply bearing the 'Islamic' or 'Muslim' tag, an army somehow becomes 'holy' or 'divine' or merits uncritical support.

    It's not the individual soldiers who risk their lives on the front-line, but the larger picture and people higher up in the hierarchy whose intents/actions/goals need to be scrutinized.

    Let's not forget that it's Khan's government which has imprisoned mawlana khadim hussain and 'pardoned' a blasphemer - and the government before that hung mumtaz qadri shaheed (raHimahullah). What positive role did the '95% Muslim' army play in these instances?
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  6. Tariq Owaisi

    Tariq Owaisi Active Member


    The current events have been all a bit sudden. Most likely the (real) ulema have not had a chance to address the issue

    The academy may not represent the views of major Ulema and we shouldn't say too much till major Ulema issue verdicts
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  7. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    Subhan Allah. Shariah has discussed regarding a muslim supporting a Kafir and aiding him in their propaganda against muslims. I see no reason for you to get triggered. I am sorry you have serious comprehension issues, this video shows a group of muslims that associate with Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Brelvi (R.H) and quite clearly they are going against the position and misleading common indian muslims as well. I stand by my right as a follower of Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Brelvi (R.H) to talk about what i find wrong in that video. This is not about India-Pakistan, this is about one muslim supporting a Kafir against another muslim. It's YOU who don't see the problem with this because you don't see it as a "religious" issue.

    There are tons of videos here, that are niether endorsed by the brothers nor are apologized for. But these videos are still posted to show others that they contain a "munkar" positon that should be warned against.

    END OF DEBATE from my side.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  8. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    This discussion is beyond you. Take your gripe elsewhere. This forum is not suitable for a charged, divisive India-Pakistan debate that detracts us from bigger problems/issues. There are some well-meaning brothers from both side of the border (who I would like to believe) are not interested in being divided by a line which has no divine sanctity.

    Stop posting videos that we neither endorse nor are duty bound to apologise for.

    If your intention was to get some clarity on the hadith of ghazwa-e-hind, then the older link that I posted should suffice. Or else find a more suitable forum where you can spill your bile against kaffir country.
    Unbeknown likes this.
  9. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    If calling out on those, who appear to praise and support a Kafir army as seen in the video below, appears chest-thumping to you. The joke is on you.

    Who's going to be responsible for misguiding young indian muslims for supporting a Kafir Army in the name of Patriotism?

    We have been talking about all kinds of deviancy (Perrenialism, Patriotism, Wahabism, Deobandism) and letting the layman know about it. Why should we let this pass by so easily. Shouldn't the muslims be warned especially regarding this?

    P.S this video is being shared by indian Muslims on facebook and almost all of them are saying that "Don't drag religion into this.It's Our army and country. Pakistan is your country and your army." "Hindustan ki jae ho" "Long live hindustan."

    When these young people see ulema holding such stance, they automatically assume that is IS the correct position in Islam when it is not.
    May Allah (swt) protect us. Ameen.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  10. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Ghazwa-e-Hind was discussed an year back here. aH listed few plausible interpretations of that hadith. Then too the discussion descended into farce thanks to few chest-thumpers.
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  11. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    I am talking about (A) and you are answering (B). At least time and years have taught me how to detect one of the poorest forms of logical fallacies. I detected this (alhamdollilah) even before i decided to not answer "that" question.
  12. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    If I tried my hand at sophistry, then I can possibly be good at it; but I am not trying one here. As I said, I am willing to give up on trying to explain the issues to you. Perhaps, time and years will make you understand or perhaps they too will fail.

    It doesn't make any difference to me but I couldn't resist getting involved when aH and Aqdas were unnecessarily dragged into this without any provocation whatsoever.
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  13. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Would you rather have aH and Aqdas as neigbours in the garden of Jannah or in a Pak-occupied India?
  14. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    This doesn't answer the original absurdity. Why are they then supporting the Kafir Indian Army over a muslim majority country and a muslim Army? I know you don't support that thesis. Isn't silence over this matter the best way for these muslims?

    This is seriously uncalled for. Sophistry at best. When has kashmir been a salafi/deobandi or ahlehadith issue? Surely we don't take anything from their Aqeedah and call them outright deviant (I agree with this 100%)Aren't the atrocities committed by Indian Army on Kashmiris thoroughly known to you?

    How is that even relevant to what we were previously discussing? I don't see how Pakistan being a better army than the indian or vice versa has anything to do with the fact that one comprises of muslims and the other Kuffar.
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    not any more, most probably.

    khan sab was overzealous to make a "peace gesture" and return the captive. messed it up big time for pakistan as well as indian Muslims. big time!

    they had the game. it was the best fluke that ever happened to them. had they even held him till election day, this would have been a phenomenal pressure builder and an embarrassment on bjp, rss, and modi and an almost certain victory for anything non-hindutva related!

    they could have roughed up india properly and nicely - he was violating our airspace. just why should we return an aggressor? who authorized you to enter our airspace yesterday? bla bla bla. since you're the aggressor who started this issue, we are the ones who will decide how to finish it. you gave no evidence for our involvement, etc.

    they should have used him as a bargaining chip. or at least escalated the matter a fair bit.

    and yet they do this today. given the current state of the propaganda machine in india, this will most probably make overnight heroes out of modi and co. word in the rallies is going to be "our efforts brought fruit. we successfully tackled the situation. pakistan got scared like a rat. we avenged our 40 "shaheeds" as well as brought back our prisoner." the minute abhinandan walks past the border, pakistan will become a loser and india (effectively the bjp, rss, sena) the winner.

    all the "tajziyakar's" on pakistani tv channels might wax lyrical about being the bigger and better person and bring out of context examples from the Seerah Tayyibah, but the fact remains, this was not the strategic time for this move and makes it look like they sheepishly gave in to india's accusations and bullying (unless it is just lip service and the actual return won't be done for a reasonably long time)

    if the idiots got a captive, they should have held on to him for a fair bit, rather than letting him off after a cup of tea! and yet indian muslims are accused of playing into the hands of kafir politicians and the kafir army!

    sorry, i lost that. seriously. hamza yusuf threatened or scared of what and how? and in what circumstances would he use that alibi?
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  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    unfortunately, i can like your post only once. brother sherkhan: a big hug for explaining it so well and so sensibly. far better than what i could do myself.

    may Allah keep muslims safe wherever they be.

    wAllahu'l musta'an.
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  17. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    There's no compulsion on Indian Muslims to make public display of patriotism. I don't support that thesis. Yes, any public display of anti-nationalism is suicidal, but there's no compulsion for celebration.

    My question is not loaded. No insinuations, no hidden assumptions (hiding behind the anonymity, I have no problem being blunt). I didn't say what you (mis)understood. By not answering my question, you have given away your answer. It's relevant if you can wrap your head around the issue. If you can't, I give up trying.


    Interestingly Balakot has a history of association with Shah Ismail and Sayyid Ahmad Barelwi, so revered by rank and file of salafist terrorists.


    You may not be completely aware of the situation, but Pulwama attack (whether or not instigated by JeM) caused untold miseries to Kashmiris living outside Kashmir. They bore the brunt of attacks, threats, evictions at the hands of hindu dogs.

    Without going into the justification for suicide attack (well there's no shar'i ground for suicide bombing, even though it may be politically or strategically expedient in an asymmetric war), it "possibly" bore the signs of handiwork of foreign hand (I don't buy the conspiracy theory that Modi engineered it, even though he has exploited it to his advantage). Sure enough JeM made a public pronouncement for having mounted and planned the attack (whether Pakistan/ISI officially supported the attack is debatable, but then the Pak government often doesn't know what the non-state actors or ISI are planning). By owning the attack, JeM asked for retribution from increasingly assertive India, egged by hyper-national media and a rabidly right-wing government looking to gain cheap electoral mileage. Not surprisingly "non-military" target was attacked. India "claimed" to have killed 300-600 fidayeens (and I don't believe it even one bit). But even if some wahhabi fidayeens die, why should I shed a tear?

    I am inclined to believe Pakistani side of the story that the Indian fighter plane just desperately dropped a payload at the site without causing any damage. Even then, Day 1 belonged to India, while Pakistan was all red-faced for allowing the incursion deep into its territory. Day 2, India lost initiative to Pakistan after losing a pilot in Pakistan territory. Overall, Imran Khan came out more sensible and statesman-like out of the whole episode, which will likely de-escalate from here on. BJP government, despite its failures on several fronts, is going to milk this attack to the fullest and I frankly think after floundering in face of self-inflicted economic troubles and united opposition it is going to now come out stronger in the coming election.

    Net result: harassment for Kashmiris, most likely retention of power by hindu nationalist. Is this good or bad outcome for Indian Muslims?


    Couple of days back, while taking a bus ride home after work, I over-heard 2 Pakistani youths (in their early 20s) discussing the situation. I am not making this conversation up.

    Pakistani 1 (P1): (after updating his friend about the escalation) Pakistani army is the best army in the world.

    P2: Is that true? I read somewhere that Indian army is stronger.

    P1: Nah. Pakistani army is the most battle ready army. They provide training to even the US army.

    While I don't want to get into the sterile debate of which army is stronger (it makes no difference to my everyday jihad with self), I couldn't help wondering at the misplaced bravado of P1. Sure, man-to-man Pakistani soldier may be more valorous, but Pakistan can ill-afford an open war with India. Its economic woes notwithstanding, Pakistan faces a big perception problem. It is more isolated than India, which can pull more global support (both from opportunist powers and from so called super-powers). That's fact of life. I am not supporting India's bluster or its better capability. It is just that Pakistan begins the war at a disadvantage of being an isolated country.


    Why are even discussing an India-Pak war or taking sides? Just because couple of juvenile hyper-nationalists here tried to take cheap pot-shots on aH.

    This forum was not set up for that, but to discuss what should concern Muslims in all walk of life, be it Pakistani or Indian or anyone else. I have seen similar reactions from few Pakistanis on couple of whatsapp group. I must admit that such reactions usually come from half-educated Pakistanis. I know few Pakistani alims who rightly turn their faces away from such sterile issues and bother themselves only with what concerns our deen. So it is probably a problem down to lack of maturity or knowledge.

    As they say, nationalism is the last refuge for scoundrels!
  18. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    What is it that i don't understand? Why don't you elaborate it for all of us?
    I'll tell you what i don't understand. It is the support of those "Indian" muslims (who aren't pressurized by the government or anyother organization in anyway what so ever) to the indian Army which is known to be predominantly comprised of Kufar. When it is known that this indian army could potentially attack a country comprised of muslims majority and the only thing that keeps these kind of muslims moving is the "patriotism" or the "terrorism" cards. These cards are sold quite openly on the Hindu-zionist owned Indian media.

    I buy brother Abu Hassan's narrative that these muslims are sell-outs. I can even buy that majority of indian muslims are being "forced" or "compelled" to do so. That makes sense.
    But i don't buy those two cards (patriotism or terrorism) placed infront of us by the Hindu Kuffar & indian muslims alike.

    Are you as a Barelwi Pakistani supporting the existence of ahl-e-hadith/deobandi/salafi terror groups like JeM/JuD/Azhar Masood/Hafiz Saeed/Haqqanis? Will you cheer if Pakistan shells border villages in Kashmir and causes casualty to Muslims?

    The reason why i didn't answer this question is because it contains a hidden assumption that "Supporting" Pakistan Army means "supporting" those groups you mentioned. The reason why i said it is a hidden assumption because i don't see any other reason of bringing this question here. If you asked this with no assumptions in your mind, then i see this a side track & an irrelvant issue.

    Let me tell you why this is an irrelavant issue.

    I raised the issue that i see quite commonly that some indian muslims support a Kafir Army over a Muslim Army.
    Causes of Supporting a Kafir Army over a muslim one:
    1) Forced/Compulsions/threats.
    2) Patriotism.
    3) Sell outs.
    4) Terrorism in indian lands.
    5) Being brain-washed by the media.

    I agree with (1) and i disagree with (2), (3),(4) & (5).

    Indian media has been making a propaganda out of this the same way Americans did when they attacked afghanistan. Established links of RAW have been found with TTP. Same goes for that of Khulbushan Yadev in Balochistan. If it is assumed that both countries are involved (although this assumption is purely hypothetical, and Indian media have been distorting,manipulating evidence and even accusing Pakistan without providing evidence) and lets for the sake of moving things forward agree here, even then do you think the justifications (4) would work for indian muslims i.e. siding with the Kafir army and lending them their support over a muslim army & country?
    The way i see it is any indian muslim playing (4) card and siding with a Kafir Army is wearing a Mask. And if you tear it away you will see patriotism written all over him.

    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  19. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I said things clearly; you didn't understand it. You still don't.

    You haven't responded to my question below.
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    hear hear.

    but young men who have never seen war or riots or suffering will not understand this. (we don't wish this upon you. may you and all muslims be safe wherever they are).

    these are sell-outs. no self-respecting muslim will support modi. perhaps this lowlife was paid by bjp to make a video for their propaganda and he gladly took it. this is not even an example.
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