Hadith Qudsi: I am..

Discussion in 'Seerat ar-Rasul' started by tazkiyya2003, Apr 6, 2005.

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  1. tazkiyya2003

    tazkiyya2003 Active Member

    Assalaamu Alaikum

    I think your website is a great and noble project,for which I congratulate you all.

    We must try and be pedantic about sourcing our material though...and be careful not to ascribe sayings to Muhammad(saw) lightly, if they do now actually have a soruce reference.

    This will increase the hearts of people who see tasawuf as being folkloric , to incline to tasawwuf and recognise it as a genuine science and not as a bunch of people just making a hullabaoo,with no solid foundations.

    Whereas, as we all know, our masters were experts in the various disciplines.
  2. Re: Hadith Qudsi: I am..(latest)

    a friend of mine asked two reknowned Ahle Sunnat scholars in the UK, Hazrat Allama Ahmad Nisar Baig Qadri and Hazrat Pir Sayyid Zahid Hussain Shah Sahib about this alleged hadith qudsi and they both said that they had never come across it before;Hazrat Sayyid Zahid Shah sahib did say that he would try to look for it in his vast collection and see if he could find it.

    So, at the moment it appears like the actual 'hadith' may well be an Orientalist fantasy. Wallahu 'alam. The idea of the pardah of the meem though is well known in our Sufi literature as Sidi abu hasan has noted...
  3. just to add a thought: for us people like mawlana rumi ARE a sanad in themselves!


    'ishq khud mufti hai...! :) (love is its own judge!)
  4. :s1:

    i will insha Allah quote the full context/paragraph of Mawlana Rumi. I have also written to Shaykh Haddad, asking for his clarification into this matter i.e. is it/isn't it a hadith qudsi.

    wa salam
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    wa alaykumu's salam.
    no way. if there is no authentic chain of narration, you should not quote it as Hadith. one must be wary of attributing spurious reports to the Prophet, Sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam. haven't you heard the famous Hadith: 'he who deliberately attributes a falsehood to me, should prepare for his seat in fire'?

    i think it was ibn SalaH who said: 'everything the Prophet said is the truth. but every truthful saying cannot be attributed to the Prophet' Sallallahu `alayhi wa ala aalihi afDalus salat wa azkas salam.

    we make a great commotion that the books of sufis should not be taken literally word for word. why then should we make it likewise, when required? more specifically where did rumi or attar say that : 'here is a Hadith qudsi'?

    if at all the saying is true as attributed, there are myriad possibilities. it might have been mistranslated or misunderstood or taken out of context. show me a comment by a Hadith scholar, and i will accept it without demur. until then, we must abstain.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
  6. :s1:

    Dear brother,
    Your point is noted however my thinking is along these lines: if this was a spurious attribution to Shaykh Attar then why would all the Sufis who came after such as Rumi, Sultan Bahu, Jami etc. etc. also continue to make reference to it in their own works?

    What I have been taught is that if something is in the praise of the Prophet we accept it even if it is from a kafir! (Of course as long as it doesn't go against any usul of Islam). And if something is critical of Our Aaqa (nuadhubillah) then we don't accept it, even if it is said by the biggest maulvi sahib!

    I can't see anything un-Islamic in this alleged hadith qudsi. Of course, the real meanings are only known to those who have arrived at the Goal as you mentioned.

  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i have no regrets in removing that quote. the books you mention are not a reliable source to verify a Hadith. don't get me wrong - who can question the greatness of fariduddin attar?

    but many fabrications have been circulated in his name; in shaykh al-akbar's name. if someone says that it is a Hadith, and a Hadith qudsi, we need a veritable narration examined by the Hadith masters. if it were not for Hadith criticism our religion would have fallen to fables. as shaykh gibril noted in his article, another 'kalilah wa dumna'

    as for meem and laam - the esoteric terminology of the sufis is best left to the masters. we must not talk of what we do not comprehend; and even those who know maintain a lengthy silence. why then should novices like us delve into this, are encouraged or attempt to explain such complex indescribable matters?

    imam ghazali advising his student said: 'there are such matters which cannot be described or inscribed in words; and if at all they could be, one would not comprehend by merely reading them or listening to them'.

    for someone who hasn't tasted an apple by the sight or smell or flavor; can its redness, or fragrance or sweetness mean anything? and this is still an apple - a thing for which a likeness exists.

    don't fall prey to the guiles of iblis if he tries to deceive you by presenting outright heresies as esoteric things understood only by the elite. he wishes that you destroy your faith by clinging to delusions. safety is in staying within the bounds of shariah, as described by the fuqaha. to be staunch in the matters of faith, as propounded by the mutakallimun. and follow the great scholars among the sufis.

    guidance is from Allah and we beseech him to protect us from going astray.
  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    I know I shouldn't really be saying this because I am not sure. But, I once heard a speaker (who was not an 'aalim) speak about the 'Meem' and it being a 'Purdah' etc. Can't remember exactly what he said.

    My cousin is very well versed in regards to the works of Imam Ahmad Rida. He said that Imam Ahmad Rida was against speaking about the purdah of the meem etc. I did find one site though http://spiritual-health.org/Sufi/Community/Reality/Commentary66b.htm On this site, do a find for 'meem'.

    Allahu a'lam. It would be good if someone could post more about it.
  9. :s1:

    You took it down :-(
    This is well known in the books of the Sufis. I saw it personally in the book "And Muhammad is His Messenger" by Prof. Anne-Marie Schimmel. Hazrat Sultan Bahu Qadri rahmatullah alayhi has references to this 'meem' in his punjabi poetry as have Sufis throughout Islamic history.

    Some references: (I quote from the aforementioned book):

    Attar, Fariduddin:Mantiq ut Tayr, p.24
    Shabistari, Gulshan i Raz: p.
    Rumi, Fihi Ma Fihi, p.226 (English transl.)

    As you can see all three are amongst the greatest Sunni awliya of all times...
  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    Re: Hadith Qudsi: I am Ahmad without the meem

    assalamu `alaykum.

    where did you find this?

    wa's salam.
  11. ***POST EDITED*******

    Moderator: I have removed the 'Hadith' until a reference is found and verified to be authentic. We may not be so rigorous all the time, but in this case it is very serious.

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