"Hadrat Abu Bakr is Afdal" says Mufakkir-e-Islam

bro muhammedi, i would like to see that recording of the shah doing tauba, because i find it very difficult to imagine that he would do taubah publicly as most people dont want to spoil their image in public.

 

Humble invitation

Abu al-Nasr:

With all due respect brother, stop trying to make a mountain of a mole hole; refute Shah Sahib's da'wah by scrutinising his dalail - as is the methodology - and you will leave Shah Sahib with no alternative except ruju' and taubah. It is as simple as that.

Though Shah Sahib's research touches upon more than a raw nerve for many, I assure you - being an ex-hater of Shah Sahib as is evident from my old posts at YN - Shah Sahib is not one to play political games. Mufakkir-e-Islam has chosen the path of ruju' and taubah before in public in regards to another issue and I can upload the recording if anyone requests so.

Therefore, if you are true in your claim that you have prepared your observations then present them to us for the whole world to view. I will personally hand over your observations to Shah Sahib for analysis.

However, my invitation is still open to you - if you are a man of sincerity - to accept the following:

Give me a date and time, acquire a scholar or scholars of your choice as judge(s), bring a camera operator or crew, pick a location and I will bring Shah Sahib. Agreed?

 

abu al-nasr's is just repeating what the YN crew say about their pir, that their pir will do 'tawba' if he is found guilty. abu al-nasr is not adding anything new.

 

Abu al-Nasr, imagine Shah ji is doing politics only, but it does not sound like you are doing anything for the sake of Allah but doing your own politics. This is din, not a game. If there is an error somewhere and you know better, then mention it, or will you only point out an error if a specific person will do tawba on that.

 

Muhammadi, do not bore me with challenges and threats. You have been asked a question, just answer it straight. I have no time to waste.

Shah Ji says he will do tawba if he is found to be wrong. Please tell me what he needs from me to convince him that he is wrong. I know about these molvi political games, I know how it works. He will say I will do tawba if I'm wrong but when it comes down to it, he will simply just take us round and round in circles.

Do me a favour, I'm a very busy man. Answer the question if you can, my take on his entire lecture and all the evidences used is already prepared.

 

wa'alaikum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

Brother Ibn Amin: The points you raised are already being discussed here. Please kindly refer to that thread.

 

As-salamu 'alaykum brother Muhammadi

First, please note, that I am not against Mufakkir-e-Islam at all and I am not "anything" to discuss with such a great scholar.

But I received some comments to the video from a brother I sent the video, which I hope you can bring to Shah sahib to get a comment on as I am not able to answer them or check it myself - not having the book.

His general point is that Shah sahib mixes talking about ijma ummat and ijma among the sunnis.

I will bring some quotes from his mail:

1) "The passage in Maqalat al-Islamiyyin refers to the positions of the Muslims as a whole, including the Mu`tazila, Shi`a and Khawarij, and not just Ahl al-Sunna."

Shah sahib says when reading it that it is about different opinions inside Ahl al-Sunna. Is he describing different opinions among the sunnis or all muslim groups in that passage?

2) "As for the passage quoting Ibn `Abbas it is from Muruj al-Dhahab by al-Mas`udi, a Shi`i Mu`tazili as Ibn Hajar described him in Lisan al-Mizan (4:225), and he specifically lambasted that writer's position on the tafdil of Sayyidina `Ali; on top of which this report is chainless and its Arabic is incoherent."

?

Moreover he writes about the position of Imam al-Ash'ari:

"Imam al-Ash`ari states the Sunni Ijma` that Abu Bakr is the best of this Umma after the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, in al-Ibana and in Ijma` 46 of his Risala ila Ahl al-Thaghr, and it is his own position `aqlan as well as confirmed by Imam Abu Mansur al-Baghdadi in the section on tafdil in his book Usul al-Din. Imam al-Ash`ari even considered that the proof for the primacy of Abu Bakr and `Umar, Allah be well-pleased with them, is in the Qur'an, as shown from the conclusion of his Luma`."

I hope you can get a response for this Jazakallahu khayra

Allah Hafiz

 

121 or behind your computer screen?

I hope you will also repent - as you did before when you were found to be wrong [see here] - if you are found to be wrong again.

Anyhow, I humbly advise you to quit the verbiage, present your observations and wait for a response from Shah Sahib. Naturally, we will then anticipate your response.

The "another brother" should gather the courage to show himself and let the public know how he "felt the meeting was pointless" otherwise I am forced to say - with all due respect - that your excuse for evasion or rah-e-farrar is not acceptable.

It is clear that you wish to evade a physical meeting with Shah Sahib and thus begs to question your sincerity [and other factors] in this whole affair.

Give me a date and time, acquire a scholar or scholars of your choice as judge(s), bring a camera operator or crew, pick a location and I will bring Shah Sahib. Agreed?

 

Ha, you make me laugh, serious. It's not about Shah Sahib, but about kal kei bachei thinking they are superman.

Anyhow, you must prove that it is a qat'i masala, that is the discussion.

 

Take on the speech

I have almost finished my take on the speech insha'Allah.

I will be making it available on Sunnitalk.net and will provide a link on this site if you want to discuss it here.

Shah Ji says he will do Tawba if he is found to be wrong. Please let me know how we will decide if he is wrong? Do I need to get people to sign it in my favour and re-write it to make it look like a refutation? (At the moment it isn't, its just my take and not a refutation).

I have been advised against meeting Shah Ji in person as another brother has already visited him and felt the meeting was pointless. I will wait for his response to my take.

 

I have been very busy

Al-Salaam 'Alaykum

I have been very busy in the previous weeks so I apologise for not presenting my take on the speech. I will be presenting it shortly when I finish downloading the speech so I can listen to it properly. I am hoping that the links are still available.

Muhammadi: A brother has already invited me to go down to Shah Ji but I would like to comment on his lecture first.

Abu Fadl: It is because of people like you that Shah Ji gets a bad name. This is an academic issue, a fail to see your academic contributions in this thread. I have no time to waste on polemics and playground fights.

 

guys calm down you lot are taking the whole matter far too seriously, theres no need for anyone to be banned. id like the mods to close this thread for there is no need to be disrespecting our ulama just like the pir siddique thread was closed.

what do brother aqdas and brother ah have to say about mufakkir e islams speech?

 

I propose to the moderators that this Abu Fadl guy is banned.

 

Abu al-Nasr you are one sick individual and you have malicious intents and sunniyat has no need for such fitna-mongers who feed like parasites on such matters in a bid to create propoganda and insult Sunni Ulama. This is not about Allama Syed Abdul Qadir Sahib (he is an outstanding scholar among others), but about how our Ulama and Sadaat are treated in general. They have not been taught the basics of adaab in treating elders hence are an enemy to all respected people.

I propose to the moderators that this Abu al-Nasr guy is banned.

 

Sabar

I am sorry you see it that way but wallah it is not as such. I have been personally keeping an eye on your observations on different forums and have found you to be an ill-mannered and arrogant person - with all due respect. Please kindly accept my invitation of a private meeting between yourself and Shah Sahib.

Adequate links have been provided therefore leaving no room for ambiguity regarding the troublesome quotes. Indeed, it will not be hard for people to conclude for themselves and others.

Ok, I'll take your word for it though I must unequivocally declare I do not know who "Qambar" is - and Allah is my Witness. Nasr, do not pre-judge people and make false assumptions.

I assume this is directed to Abu Fadl.

May Allah forgive you and reward you for speaking the truth.

Prove it.

Easier said than done; we will all be eagerly looking forward to your response.

 

Wow, I was not expecting character assassination attempts by Abu Fadl and Muhammadi for commenting on this video. I wonder how you will react once I have officially responded to it.

Muhammadi selectively copy/pasting at night from a argument I had deomstrates how sad he is. I am happy you provided the links to the thread so people are able to judge for themselves.

I did not refer to Shah Ji as Molvi Jaanu-German, to was a comment made against me first by your friend Qambar. Same goes for Qadiri Jilani crew of Walthamstow, all these comments refer to mureeds not representing Shah Ji well.

As for my accounts, I have three only. One at Sunnitalk, Sunniport and one at Rayaheen. All with the same name Abu al-Nasr. So, please refrain from throwing false accusations. You have plenty of people off YN who have been rubbed off the wrong way, not with-holding from the numerous Pir factions (Mashadi's mureeds, Pir Alaudeen's mureeds, Pir Aslam's mureeds...etc).

However, I do admit that I considered Shah Ji to be secretly doing tafDeel 'Ali but openly accepting the afDalia of Abu Bakr. I do tawbah from this as I now no more consider this to be the case after watching the Luton Speech. He consider him to have made a mistake in his research and not in his doctrine, may Allah forgive him.

I will be responding to the video and per evidence provided soon.

 

Da'wat-e-Sukhan

masha Allah. Please do kindly make us aware of your conclusions. In the mean time, do listen to this, this, and this; all related to the subject under scrutiny. Moreover, I am in the process of uploading further extensive lectures of Shah Sahib and will definitely forward them to you to benefit your conclusions.

In addition, if need be, I will arrange a private meeting between yourself and Shah Sahib so that you may present your observations directly to the Sayyid. Personally, I think this will be the best methodology if you accept.

Quit the claptrap. We all know you hate Shah Sahib [see examples below]. Some members of this site may express their differences with Shah Sahib however, unlike yourself, they are civilised and present their analyses in a standard most objective and professional [this is not YaNabi or SunniTalk so behave yourself].

Here are a few examples of your [though understandable] venom and ill-manners [bad-akhlaqi] not befitting a person who claims he is an "active antagonist" let alone a more educated person:

[1] "I am absolutely dumbstruck how some people can claim ascription to al-Braylawiyya al-Maturidiyya but readily reject our principle texts when they oppose their own nafsi ideology. They are busy finding texts which agree with their desires and renounce whoever opposes their desires. They are not called Ahl al-Ahwa for no reason." Here.

[2] "Alhamadulillah, some people had the guts to stand forward and say this. Alot of our 'ulema are running around these Mufazila like Mureeds. There needs to be a universal boycott and a demand for these guy's clear mawqif.

Molvi Abdul Qadir speeches mainly involve him talking about how Imam Ali (as) is afzal but when he is challenged to a debate, he quickly switches his opinion and starts talking about how Abu Bakr (RA) is afzal.

NO NONSENSE POLICY!" Here.

[3] "What are your issues, please make them clear for those who do not want to fill their ears with innovations from the Walthamstow Mullas. (Please note: The Qadiri Jilani crew is well known to hide behind Zaydi principles and ignore Maturidi texts and understanding behind Imamat ul Mafdool Ma'a Hadoor il Fadil)" Here.

[4] "Firstly, thanks for the ad hominem attack. Nothing I have said so far was "sweeping" but this is usually a tactic used by the Tafzili Crew of Walthamstow[...]You want to run back and forth to your Mullas for answers." Here.

[5] "I don't know what your Molvi Jaanu-German is teaching you in your potwari dars-e-nizami classes but in our madhab Jama'ah is Sunnah Mu'akkadah." Here.

Moreover, your principles and procedures [as well as the person you seem to be uselessly engaged with] of jawab and jawab al-jawab are fallacious and ridiculous at the least - see here. I was going to compile a list of insults you make regarding your opponent in that thread but I am not going to waste my time nor the time of our viewers. [I'd rather read a chapter from A'la Hadrat Imam-e-Ahl-e-Sunnat's {rahimahullah} "Tahmid-e-Iman"].

In addition, I challenge you to present the "errors" in talaffuz so that we can forward them to Shah Sahib for examination. It is suprising that Shaikh Ninuwi who is an Arab and Arabic speaker remarks in the lecture that Shah Sahib speaks Arabic just like he speaks Urdu yet we are to take your biased word to the contrary for it.

He did not enforce anything on anybody; quite to the contrary of what you wish to conveniently paint actually. Shah Sahib clearly says that if he is wrong, he will make ruju' and ask for forgiveness in public - yet you still doubt his sincerity and apply desperate attempts to find faults!

Moreover, Shah Sahib was making a general statement that his mauqif does not necessitate kufr and/or khuruj from Ahl-e-Sunnat, which he goes on to prove - a mauqif that you accept by stating exactly what Shah Sahib opines: "It is mutawatir ma'nawi, therefore ijma zanni" - see here.

Shah Sahib is still authoring the book that has now exceeded over 1000 pages. It consists of Shah Sahib's comprehensive research on the subject and is not a translation of any book. Rest assured, we shall upload it as soon as possible once it is published for the benefit of all. Shah Sahib examines all objections made until date on his mauqif in that book including the references brother aH scholarly refers to here, which have been forwarded to Shah Sahib.

wa billahi at-taufiq.

 

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Abu al-Nasr, for a start can you please post the grammar mistakes? I would would be eager to see what you have found and to see your profound mastery of Arabic grammar.

I have always been a great admirer of all Sunni scholars, especially those of the highest comptence, and if you disagree with something then you respond with evidences not with rubbish as you have. kal bacha and you throw insults and disrespect at buzargan-e-deen.

I have also seen the video and your accusations actually describe you better than what is in that speech.

I am sorry to say but I have found you to be an ignorant and arrogant fool that is full of double standards and bughz - and that for a Syed who is from the family of Ghaus-e-Azam R.A. The reason why you signed up with this name is clear and you are clearly a fitna monger. Someone has told me that you are signing up to different websites with odd names just to insult Ulamaa.

I have been told of your real name and who you are.

What a shame.