Hamza Yusuf rings Shaykh Asrar

Discussion in 'Bickering' started by Aqdas, Oct 4, 2018.

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  1. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Active Member

    @a_concerned_sunni
    I think Allama Arshad Misbahi is spot on about Shaykh Asrar and it is no coincidence that he has been invited to most of the Ala Hazrat conferences. One of the Shaykh's qualities that I really admire is his objective admiration of Alahazrat and other scholars too, which is why everytime he speaks on the Imam, I learn something new.
    I think at a time that we are losing scholars, especially a lot of our elders, we need to encourage and pray for the success of scholars like Shaykh Asrar, if we are to meet the challenges of our time. Amin
    You do not know what you got until it is gone and unfortunately I think Sunnis too often realise this too late.
    May Allah most High continue to bless the Shaykh and all our ulema. Amin
     
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  2. a_concerned_sunni

    a_concerned_sunni New Member

    IMG_8816.JPG IMG_8817.JPG

    Sunni UK scholars still endorse and recommend Shaykh Asrar Rashid, above screenshots dated 21 October 2018
     
  3. azharimiyan

    azharimiyan New Member

    In fact, personally, I believe it is more a credit to abu Hasan than a criticism that he remains unknown. In the day and age of celebrity molvis with cultish followers he chooses to simply do a service to the religion rather than claim personal fame.

    His humility and knowledge would outdo the majority of such 'scholars' and he could be as equally world renowned (if he were to try to; in my opinion) but opts not to, which is commendable.
     
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  4. azharimiyan

    azharimiyan New Member

    The word of our teacher abu Hasan is more worthy to be listened than a 1000 of your IRL hansons and other personalities
     
  5. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    That means Butt saab takes only from those he's seen. So he can't take from most if any on this board.
     
  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    what do you mean? to make this claim you need to know what you confess you don't. so present your proofs before making insinuations.

    it seems you don't understand what you are saying.

    ----

    abu Hasan is a public figure. whatever is relevant to the work he is doing is known already. search the forums and you will find information aplenty.

    what he believes, what he thinks, who he trusts and learns from, who he looks up to, who he supports, what he disagrees with, his personal and learned stand on things that matter to him.

    if you are after the color of his skin or the shape of his nose or the size of his shoe - you are being nosy and childish.
     
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  7. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Don't listen to him. But speak for yourself. Because we do listen to him. Listening to someone doesn't depend on whether we know what he looks like, it's about the substance of what he says.

    Tell me, what's he said wrong?

    Also, you know what Hamza looks like, don't you? Does that mean you can ignore his promotion of perennialism? But will bypass the sound advice of aH just because you don't know who he is?

    Great logic. So now, whether we listen to someone or not doesn't depend on what he says, but if we know him or not.

    You know Nasr too, don't you? Go listen to him.
     
  8. Abdul Rehman Butt

    Abdul Rehman Butt New Member

    Every single person mentioned in this thread directly or indirectly has a public presence and name. They don't hide behind kunyas online.

    Why on earth should we listen to you at all abu Hasan?

    Why the facade?

    Isn't it time you revealed yourself and put a physical identity to your online personality, one that we only find behind the ramparts of sunniport.com
     
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this was a follow-up message to the brother:

    ==============================================================================
    in other words, a cult minion.
    sorry, but if a person is unable to see facts and take a stand, that only means that he is mentally enslaved.

    i used to praise both hamza and keller. and i even argued with people - asking for proofs. you can check on this forum itself - search for "shaykh hamza" and the user "abu Hasan".

    when i found the proofs, i didn't hesitate to dissociate. keller lied. hamza lies. and one must be a sold cult member to not see their lies. same with yaqubi. except that since yaqubi is a sayyid, so we exercise maximum restraint. so far he hasn't done anything against the zaruriyat e din.

    ===
    http://sunniport.com/index.php?thre...et-saw-include-the-final-hour.2695/#post-4577

    http://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/sunni-site-in-bangla.3747/#post-8968

    http://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/sh-nuh-keller-on-deoband-vs-barelwi-conflict.3329/#post-7243

    ----
    nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.

    ==============================================================================
     
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  10. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is from a private message with a brother last year. (nov 2017)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    a brother sent questions from someone. i have removed the names.

    this ihtiyat is generally observed - and a very big benefit of doubt given generally. however, it is not possible - nor is it wajib for a mufti to go investigate every issue and interrogate every person accused of takfir. a mufti is given a question, the words and the situation - the mufti issues a fatwa.

    like?

    why much? which rule of fiqh says that 'individual takfir should not be made even when the reason is quite apparent.'? particularly, in the case of blasphemy, judges will not accept slip of the tongue either. and according to ibn taymiyyah, he should be executed even if he does tawbah.

    one should read the books on this specialist subject to understand that blasphemy of RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam is unlike any other kufr.

    only that nouman was informed and he didn't think of this excuse. if he said that this video is doctored and he did not say that, we will withdraw.

    now where did this rule come from? in which case, a man can do blasphemy and refuse to attend the mufti or qadi. as long as he is not there "in person", the poor mufti or qadi is bound to not issue takfir. this objection is made by a person who doesn't know basics of iftaa.

    check out fatawa ridawiyyah - or even deobandi fatawa - and see how many places they say that 'such a person has become kafir and that he must renew his faith and nikah'. did these muftis personally go to investigate or require the accused to come in their presence before issuing the fatwa?

    perhaps the person has mixed it up between qadi - as in issuing a punishment, and a mufti - as in issuing a fatwa.

    it is your feeling. not a sharayi rule. unless you can prove it from rasm al-mufti, it is your own whim. if a mufti has all the context and the issue is not very ambiguous, there is no harm in issuing a ruling. "opportunity to question them" is only for qadi who issues a punishment that will be administered by the ruler. donald trump in your case. [if he were a muslim ruler that is, in a muslim country].

    'think' is the operative word. there is no equivalence here. the hadd for adultery is a personal issue. the hadd of apostasy for blasphemy is a public issue. besides the hadd of adultery is intentionally beset with so many difficult conditions to avoid punishment. as for blasphemy, if it were not so stringent, perhaps you too would be making fun of your religion and religious personalities - al-iyadhu billah - indeed the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam and Allah Himself - if it were not for such strict rules. all said and done, give me illustrations from books of usul - even shafiyi or maliki usul. 'i think' is not sufficient.

    stuff can be doctored. fatawa can be forged. books can be tampered with. but when it is public, unless it is rejected or recanted by the person accused of it, particularly when it is brought to his notice, then it cannot be denied.

    NAK was informed on his FB page and he mockingly said, "i repent" when asked to clarifiy a bit - he went stone cold.

    he hardly said: 'that video was doctored!'

    ----
    it is the same case with so many celebrity scholars committing excesses. they have all the time in the world to respond to trivial things - but when it comes to matters of import or taking a stand, they become PC and diplomatic. "shaykh doesn't have time to see everything and respond to everything..."

    yeah, true. when the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam is disrespected, it is not just the responsibility of muftis, but every muslim should stand up for it. particularly when such things are obvious.

    but we live in an age of apathy. those who belittle the messenger of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam by citing "ma ana bi qariy" etc. should be given 'benefit of doubt'. these scoundrels are spreading fitnah, but you want this sham adab. look at the media and look in the mirror - you are debased as a muslim today because you do not have the courage to stand up for the honour of RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    even in this case - look how many people are worried about nouman's takfir, but nouman saying RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam was not a muslim - al-iyadhu billah - is ok. as one of my friends said: 'who are these people following? and who is more important for them?'

    ---
    leave the takfir - but where is the outrage or protest at least? all the questions above are by hypocrites - who want to be holier than the pope. if they are really serious, they should have protested that these statements are kufr and demand NAK to remove them. will they? will they?

    read some books of usul. if you want me to find some rule in a book, only to be judged according to that rule by some utter jahil - that won't happen. if you are not capable, just shut up and mind your business.

    if you are not outraged by the false accusation and obvious disrespect to the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam, then why are you outraged on your high horse by this 'impropriety' concerning an ordinary man?

    people do not know basics of their religion, but they assume that something is incorrect - and they do not have the basic knowledge to examine or analyse that either. yet, they want US to produce proof, for their own whims! what are they smoking these days?

    fine. this was brought to nouman's notice and he didn't say anything of the above. instead, his friends and fans are defending THAT statement. he is not telling them either to leave it as it is not his statement.

    some additions:

    we live in this world, here and now. you cannot have fitnahs on facebook, twitter and youtube in realtime, but want to follow the process of 100 years ago.

    today, it becomes all the more important to refute it - and refute as forcefully as you can - to warn people and make them desist from throwing careless statements.

    muslims today follow the celebrity culture of the west. celeb-scholars are one rank above the ordinary mortals. when such a blasphemy is made, it goes around the world in a matter of hours. how many people read, listen and accept it? who is responsible for correcting it?

    you can check the forum - when the same nouman's personal scandals went online, i refused to comment and asked people to not bother about his personal life. but when it is an issue of public interest, we will refute.

    if we do not refute the fitnahs of our time, and use our discretion and tools available - this will compound.

    ---
    wa billahi't tawfiq.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2018
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    a brother asks: "if shaykh asrar does not talk to hamza, how can he ask him to retract? didn't alahazrat write to thanawi too"?

    ---
    yeah, you have a point. but we live in a different age. that oft-quoted line that " a lie will run around the world a dozen times, while truth is still tying its shoelaces" couldn't be truer; only that it became faster: the lie is flying first-class, while truth is still preparing to run.

    firstly, ulama are not net-savvy, tech-savvy. they are still in their schools and dens. those who are active on the internet, do not seem to care much about what people believe, so long as they have 'followers' and they will not do or say something to alienate them.

    very few people like sh. saeed foudeh or shaykh asrar speak out against heresies of the day. or bother about safeguarding the faith of common muslims.

    shaykh asrar might be thinking: 'let us exhaust this option too - so hamza and co. don't whine that they weren't contacted'. which is fine.

    though i am not that patient or forgiving. i would tell hamza point blank whether he would repent from his actions and publicly proclaim perennialism as kufr and issue a statement warning muslims to avoid all perennialist literature and tainted academic frauds. until then, his remonstrations are just a PR exercise. but then, i have seen so many con-artists in life and generally do not trust a man if he has been proven once to be a swindler; that thing about not 'getting stung from the same hole twice' etc.

    isn't it the responsibility of scholars to warn common muslims against the dangers stalking their religion? on the contrary, they are praising them, defending them.

    la Hawla wa la quwwata illa billah.

    ----
    one hundred years ago, it would take some time to get things printed and not all people had access to books or could read. so heretical ideas and blasphemous statements would take some time to percolate to the masses. sunni scholars had an equal opportunity to refute, print etc. today, lumbard's moronic drivel is spread within an hour - twitter, facebook, whatsapp and youtube. and if you don't respond with that speed, and wait for the call-get hold-confirm-respond-argue-disagree-debate-give-up finally cycle, there will be a fresh round of heresies to refute.

    plus anyone with an internet connection can say what they like. you have that mad-punk from the UK, that snake-oil salesman from uzbekistan, that arrogant somali pirate, or that monkey from zimbabwe or the pakistani-american who runs a boutique become-mufassir-in-4 weeks joint; none of these people learnt the etiquette of addressing the prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam or other prophets alayhimu's salam. anyone who expects us to respect these low-lifes should get their heads examined. foolish muslims are more worried about what is being said about these contemporary sell-outs, than what THEY say about pious elders, and prophets!

    laytaka taHlu wa'l Hayatu mariratun
    laytaka tarDa wa'l anaamu ghiDabu

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2018
  12. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed New Member

  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    shaykh asrar is being naive if he thinks that meeting hamzah will not lead to misrepresentation of sh. asrar sahib's position.

    why should we contact hamza for clarifications? we should refute him and his constant attempts to push the envelope. unless hamza repents publicly and recants from his shameful actions, there is no point in 'talking' to him. as if, they all come to us asking about our opinions before calling us all the names they do.

    besides, this is a mistaken notion that we should all expend energies convincing, cajoling, begging people who are stepping out of line. apparently, their indiscretions are not to be criticised, but our objections should be excoriated with impunity. sub'HanAllah.

    hamza probably has read a number of books on negotiations, and is simply using this opportunity to try them out.

    ---
    indeed!

    yeah, sure. after all fons vitae is not a perennialist organisation. and even if it were, what would hamza know? he does not read much - how would he know that it was a perennialist organisation? and even if hamza reads, english is not his native language - how can he differentiate?

    see, it is this kind of nuance that is overlooked by people who run roughshod over delicate temperaments; hamza did not know that the satanic work by the murtad nasr, was an attempt to distort the message of the qur'an. poor hamza, in his simplicity he wrote an essay and praised it as the greatest work on qur'an in the west. and oh, yes - he cannot take it back now. he cannot recant.

    yeah, hamza is not a perennialist. just an admirer and supporter. the nuance. don't forget.

    and has he got the guts to call nasr or whatsisname the swiss-guru as murtads? or at least that perennialism is kufr and he distances himself henceforth from all perennialist activities and connections?

    ---
    you must understand the nuance. that murtad lumbard may say the most outrageous thing about the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. but, no. you cannot call them madmen. you cannot call this bunch of hypocrites insane devils. perish forbid!

    ---
    there was a time when men like hamza, tried to use the name of islam to push their own agendas and crazy views. one of them is being celebrated by hamza's institute recently. the person who boldly criticised him was gunned down.

    when people look back to our time (if judgement day doesn't come sooner), you can choose to be remembered as elijah poole or malik el-shabazz.

    nas'alu Allah al-aafiyah.


    BOOTNOTE: we will continue to refute heresies as we see them. if people don't want to be refuted, they better practice their act and avoid things that will invite censure. let them fall in line with the sunnah. if they don't care, why should *i* care for their sensibilities?

    and for those fence-sitter, non-commital, maulvis who wish to hide behind the veneer of tasawwuf and avoid criticising heretics and heresies, look at the people in the west (if that is what looks good to you) - they are unremitting in calling out offenders and they do not mince words - they even use profanities.

    all we are saying is do not hesitate to call a spade, a spade.

    [edit: i posted this late night and i don't recall why i thought it to be naive; perhaps i misread it; a brother asked me why would sh. asrar be naive to meet hamzah - i fear that such a meeting be misrepresented].
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  14. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    Shaykh Hamza Yusuf rang me earlier today. I thanked him for ringing me. He also thanked me for reaching out to him as many detractors and critics do not do so. We discussed the Dante controversy, perennialism, the evolution theory and the recent controversy on Elijah Poole. I listened to his points regarding these issues and he said 1) he is not perennialist 2) does not give any credence to Darwinian Evolution theory and said his video was out of context and misinterpreted. I listened to many of the concerns he raised. We concluded that we will meet in person and privately discuss the many issues of concern. Of specific concern to me was tenets of faith that are known by necessity being muddied and of special concern to him was context, nuance and good opinion of others. Each factor of concern for both parties was expressed. Discussions continue and may Allah grant us sincerity to uphold the truth.

    - Shaykh Asrar Facebook page today
     

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