Hand sanitisers and alcohol

Discussion in 'Hanafi Fiqh' started by faqir, Mar 17, 2020.

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  1. Umar99

    Umar99 Veteran



    1:45:20 onwards regarding hand sanitisers.
     
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    They have non-alcoholic wines now just like non-alcoholic beer. Non-alcoholic red and white wines are served in fine dining restaurants all over the GCC now.

    It's only a matter of time before we have non-alcoholic versions of scotch, vodka and the rest of them.
     
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  4. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Active Member

    مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاء عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاء بَيْنَهُمْ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ذَلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَى عَلَى سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا
    (Sura Al Fath)

    "Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and his companions are stern with the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"!

    The above is the key on how a Muslim should act with another Muslim. I know a good few sunni ulema who hold a different opinion but to call them words such as "factory production line muftis" did not suit Sh Asrar. I hope he realizes his error and corrects his post!

    And remember ikhtilaf can always be there amongst ulema but that is a mercy for the ummah!

    P. S. I myself have used hand sanitizers (in office as well with all this coronavirus outbreak) and know sunni ulema who hold either positions!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  5. Mehmet Sekil

    Mehmet Sekil Active Member

  6. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that is what i quoted:

     
  7. Adham12

    Adham12 New Member

    He should have realized that many Sunnis have asked about hand sanitizers since this virus pandemic. This type of language does not appeal to everyone, especially if Sunni muftis have written about it as recent as last week that oppose his verdict. Supplying evidence would have sufficed in this case without the disparaging tone.
    Actually washing hands is the better option when available, but for many that work in healthcare including myself, it is not the most readily available option especially when going to different patient rooms every 15-30 min.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the train has left the station...long ago.

    ---
    only a hundred years ago, literacy in the east was less than 20%. and a majority was illiterate, could not read books, did not know how things work and were generally not burdened with information. this approach worked back then (even until the 70s, in spite of the literacy). but today, it is detrimental to treat people in this manner.

    https://ourworldindata.org/literacy

    https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000002930

    ----
    in alahazrat's time, very few people (in our societies) could do math or stuff like spherical trigonometry. this is counted as one of the subjects alahazrat was proficient in; however, we have progressed far beyond this and any average pre-college student (math major) is expected to know this. take anatomy - how many muftis are well versed in human anatomy? at least that which concerns religious rulings?

    from anatomy to world history to current affairs to common law to politics to geography to economics to finance to space to culture to technology - there is plenty of information out there. the most intelligent children and those with the best opportunities/means become doctors, engineers, scientists, professionals etc. i am not saying that religious scholars are not intelligent - but treating a majority as intellectually inferior will not work.

    indeed, religious scholars are proficient - or supposed to be - in their fields of fiqh, hadith, tafsir, arabic etc. but they must acknowledge that the 'common people' they are talking to are intelligent and literate people. speaking to them with (what are now) dumbed-down metaphors and analogies from centuries ago meant to for illiterate peasants will definitely not work. treating them as illiterates is a self-goal.

    religious scholars should either up the game by gaining some level of proficiency in all of these sciences - or at least build the ability to search for information from reliable sources, read, comprehend and be able to adapt that information for fatawa on contemporary issues. if they cannot, they will have to defer to 'experts' in these fields and take their opinions which can be misleading at times.

    for example, from the saheefah fiqhiyyah i linked below:

    sahifa, v1p39.png


    etymology has this: https://www.etymonline.com/word/alcohol

    ---
    bhargava's (i had to look it up). here is an online pdf. 'alcohol' on p.28.
    as you can see, the entry may be correct in its context, but it is not the right source to begin with.

    ---
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    yeah. forgot to mention that. i remember an example from the news item decades ago that methanol poisoning occurred in india where cheap toddy was spiked with methanol resulting many deaths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnataka_alcohol_poisonings

    other such incidents in india:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alcohol_poisonings_in_India


    --
    update: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/11/toxic-alcohol-methanol-india-uttar-pradesh-uttarakhand
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    yes for most external sterilization purposes, isopropyl alcohol is used (sterilizing before giving injection, cleaning medical instruments, etc.). in case ethanol is used, it's denatured

    if you're into BBQ's, chances are your coal lighting fluid will also be denatured ethanol

    even methanol is inedible in the sense of suitable for human consumption. it's poisonous more than it is an intoxicant. (that doesn't stop some cheap-thrill seekers wanting to use it to get drunk, though)

    from wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol#Toxicity

    our concern is really only ethanol and even then denatured ethanol doesn't count

    normal ethanol counts only if it is made from dates/grapes (if you're hanafi) as you said; it is BOTH intoxicant and impure

    not the one made commercially by factory processes, or made by other fruits/vegetables (it is still intoxicant (muskir) but not impure, and for external use we are concerned with purity only)

    Allahu a3lam.
     
  11. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    not to impose my opinion on others, but i just wanted to highlight some points:

    1. Shaykh Asrar could well be talking about a deo "mufti" or any other deviant. there's no indication in the question or the answer about the aqidah inclination of the mufti. i think he's been harsh on deviants in many cases (and honestly, not as harsh as i would want him to be, but then me being me holds no water :) )

    2. i doubt it might be a subcontinental-background Sunni mufti as Ala Hazrat rahimahullah himself permitted such consumer products as highlighted in the DI fatwa citing Fatawa Ridawiyyah

    3. all said and done, i have noticed an air of arrogance in a very large number if not most subcontinental scholars/muftis (regardless of sect) really and this is the only way to counter it. compassionate nasiha doesn't work. notwithstanding the star status of many naathkhwans and some celebrity scholars.

    just last night, on a whatsapp group i follow one respectable Sunni mufti stated something, someone asked some educated (fiqh-wise) questions, and the mufti sahib blew a fuse and said, 'do you think such questions are wise to ask in a group of such common people? who will not understand the fiqhi nuances and technicalities'. the poor guy even said, 'mufti sahib don't get angry. relax' and he again got angry and said 'i said what i had to. if you don't like it, do what you want.' he's actually quite a knowledgeable and practical mufti sahib with a good eye for details, current events (not as much as us common duniyadar people but still he knows enough about secularism and what happened in Arab spring etc.), and other mazahib, and being based in the Middle East, he's not a tadpole in a well as some village maulanas are in india. yet, he too has this 'us muftis vs. these common people' distinction and is not shy to use it on many instances. this is BUT ONE example i've seen with scholars. i respect him for his knowledge but compassionately telling him, 'hazrat, humility is the ornament of a scholar' or even 'please do not get angry, i was merely asking to learn' won't help; and yet anything else would be cheap and pathetic, nothing short of a street fight type scenario between a mufti and a mere 'aam admi' that none of us would want to get into.

    anyway, that's digressing from the topic. Allah help us all
     
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i did see a fatwa circulating by some of our respected muftis, but there is an oversight on their part - as they base their argument on alcohol being khamr and khamr being najis - by transition, alcohol is najis.

    but otherwise, the point is valid. if khamr is used in anything, it renders everything najis. so the rest of the fatwa following that line is correct. the slip is in deeming EVERY alcohol as khamr.

    other than ethanol and methanol no other alcohol is edible irrespective of its being an intoxicant. alcohol is a generic term used for organic compounds that contain hydroxyl functional group (-OH).

    "The term alcohol originally referred to the primary alcohol ethanol (ethyl alcohol), which is used as a drug and is the main alcohol present in alcoholic beverages."​

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol

    ---
    talking of ethyl alcohol/ethanol, only that which is converted to ethanol from grapes is called khamr. and everything else that intoxicates is termed 'khamr' by implication (for intoxication = khamr). i will talk about this in another post. in sha'Allah.

    also industrial production of ethyl alcohol does not follow the 'fermentation from grapes' route. while this was true in alahazrat's time, it is not the same in our time. there are many ways to arrive at ethanol

    "Ethanol is produced both as a petrochemical, through the hydration of ethylene and, via biological processes, by fermenting sugars with yeast. Which process is more economical depends on prevailing prices of petroleum and grain feed stocks. In the 1970s most industrial ethanol in the United States was made as a petrochemical, but in the 1980s the United States introduced subsidies for corn-based ethanol and today it is almost all made from that source."

    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

    other links:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/ethanol-production-process

    https://www.chemguide.co.uk/organicprops/alcohols/manufacture.html

    https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1070&context=abe_eng_conf

    https://www.essentialchemicalindustry.org/chemicals/ethanol.html

    ----
    HOWEVER, be careful about things such as this:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/16/us/distilleries-hand-sanitizer-coronavirus-trnd/index.html


    ---
    hand sanitisers are more glorified than they should be and are mostly a convenience. washing hands with soap and water serves the same purpose.


    Alcohol-based hand rubs are extensively used in the hospital environment as an alternative to antiseptic soaps. Hand-rubs in the hospital environment have two applications: hygienic hand rubbing and surgical hand disinfection. Alcohol based hand rubs provide a better skin tolerance as compared to antiseptic soap. Hand rubs also prove to have more effective microbiological properties as compared to antiseptic soaps.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_sanitizer


    ---


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4623738/

    https://blog.gotopac.com/2017/05/15...than-99-isopropanol-and-what-is-ipa-used-for/

    https://labproinc.com/blog/chemical...ce-between-isopropyl-alcohol-ipa-99-and-70-25

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_sanitizer

    https://www.wired.com/story/how-to-make-hand-sanitizer/
     
  15. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    DI UK fatwa attached here.

    for future use i would like (as in, it's only my wish, i'm just a nobody) a detailed technical analysis on:

    some basic types of alcohol - ethanol, isopropyl alcohol, methanol, propylene glycol, etc. stating the effects of each on human body, effectively highlighting that the one that ethanol concerns us as Muslims as that's the muskir

    denaturing procedures and the effect of denaturing on physical and chemical properties and effects on human body - special emphasis on ethanol

    basic description of synthetic alcohols and some commercial production procedures for alcohols not used in the obvious intoxicating beverages

    classification into 1) commercial products used externally - perfumes, deos, sprays, etc. 2) medical applications, medicines to be consumed or injected 3) food products applications (ice creams, food colors etc. that you find in the west) - again some details needed on types of alcohols used (ethanol will be main focus) and denaturing and what denaturing actually does (for eg., will food color intoxicate or not, as opposed to your ordinary deo; is there any denaturing for medicinal purposes?, etc.)

    details from our mazhab - khamr is made of grapes and dates and is both impure as well as intoxicant; other muskir's are forbidden to consume but pure (DI fatwa addresses this point, but if you consider some of the things mentioned in this post, some detailed rulings might be required and the fatwa has room to be re-hashed with further details)

    an overview of the elementary details of other mazahib

    let people make smart, educated judgments without needing to run from pillar to post.

    and Allah knows best. these are just my opinions and i stand to be corrected.
     
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i agree with sh.asrar's disagreement and disagree with the manner in which he voiced his disagreement.
    notice that shaykh asrar sahib prefers the polite route when countering or confronting mubtadiys. whereas we take a blunt in your face route.

    ---
    lets be kind and soft towards one another and harsh towards the others.
     
  17. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I disagree. He did the right thing by taking this route.

    A lot of such "muftis" run from tahqeeq and ijtihad on new issues and when us common folk try to pose questions in light of new information like "mufti sahib, there are denatured alcohols, in fact denaturing is mandatory by law for most consumer products like sanitizers, paints etc., notwithstanding that most alcohols are synthetic and not made from grapes or dates, furthermore only ethanol is the real intoxicant, isopropanol or others used in many products for external use are mere chemicals, etc" we are exposed to their hubris and comments that effectively state 'you common fools don't try to teach us'

    So I gladly welcome shaykh Asrar's approach with open arms. It is much needed at this point in time, and by that I'm referring to our stagnation in tahqeeq and ijtihad.

    I just wish he had elaborated somewhat further on the various chemistry related technical and fiqh related shar3iy points relating to alcohols and intoxicants and khamr and sakr and so on.

    DI UK fatwa also says permissible and cites Ala hazrat as saying spirit used externally is also clean, but they too didn't touch on the points I wanted a good FatwA on alcohol based products to be addressed.

    Some basic googling will enable people to issue a detailed fatwa with a detailed technical and fiqhi analysis on many points but alas.

    His approach to this issue should to standardized to all issues, only then will the ulama and common folk move in unison.
     
  18. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Active Member

    I agree, utterly disrespectful response by maulana Asrar to many ulema. One should remain humble at all times and simply state their opinion rather than disparaging "numerous" ulema in the process if they had a different opinion!
     
    Umar99 likes this.
  19. Adham12

    Adham12 New Member

    His post is very disrespectful to many aalims. He could have easily written it differently but chose this route.
     
    Umar99 likes this.
  20. faqir

    faqir Veteran

    maulana asrar :
     

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