How Ahl al-Sunnah were infiltrated by rifd

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by Aqdas, Jun 28, 2020.

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  1. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Mufti Fazl Ahmad Chishti sahab has roundly rebutted the tafdhilis with sound research and citations. Must view.

    I have moved the post to "Fadak and Khata" thread here:
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

  3. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    amazing how so so many videos relating to Irfan Shah sahib are dropping like flies.
     
  4. ramiz.noorie

    ramiz.noorie Active Member

  5. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    This books contains attacks on Amir Muawiyah and other sahabah and negates the superiority of Siddiq رضي الله عنهم.

    But Munawwar Jamati has attested it...

    IMG-20200706-WA0046.jpg
     
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Same video on this link:



    Download and keep it this time before it gets removed from here too

    Again, Irfan Shah sahib moved to the UK for the very purpose of fighting the fitnah of closet rafidis like paqs, so it really is strange why he's aligning with others like him
     
  7. shahnawazgm

    shahnawazgm Active Member

    My pagdi needs to be the biggest of em all to suit my status?
     
  8. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Very strange considering that Irfan Shah sahib was told to move to the UK for the very purpose of containing the fitnah of the rafidi paqs. Paqs and his cohorts must be having a jolly good laugh!

    ...and what's with Munawwar Jamati's Russian orthodox style head gear? No, seriously - https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/P...ral_news_704/d4b48abda189eb230e5e4d658dcfbce7
     
  9. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    I don't agree with Sayyid Mash'hadi working with Pir Munawwar Jamati. He's a fan of Tahir ul and even entertains rafidis as seen above.
     
  10. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

    Syed irfan shahs alliance with someone who has spent all his life promoting minhajis and tafzeelis is most confusing.

     
  11. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    Will all due respect to each individual, but detractors of Dr Jalali are using emotional sophistry (appealing to emotion), motivated by sincere and proper love for the sanctity and rank of the Ahlul Bayt, but poor application which completely fall short to all the arguments brought out by Dr Jalali ( I suggest you watch his videos if you haven't). I love Sayyid Shah for the sake of Allah, but one has to be fair when point are brought about and not get caught in his charming diatribe, which have valid points without a doubt but can be misunderstood. If they really want to bury the issue they should have not opened these silly arguments, not demand an ruju and move on with their lives : as for even the ruju, they opened a can of worms:



    Just to throw the point home (with regards to Irfan Syed Shah Sahib's comment)

    أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مَعْدَانَ بْنِ عِيسَى، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ أَعْيَنَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا مَعْقِلٌ، عَنْ أَبِي الزُّبَيْرِ، عَنْ جَابِرٍ، أَنَّ امْرَأَةً، مِنْ بَنِي مَخْزُومٍ سَرَقَتْ فَأُتِيَ بِهَا النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَعَاذَتْ بِأُمِّ سَلَمَةَ فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لَوْ كَانَتْ فَاطِمَةَ بِنْتَ مُحَمَّدٍ لَقَطَعْتُ يَدَهَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقُطِعَتْ يَدُهَا ‏.‏

    We all know Sayyidah Fatimah Radhiallahu Anha is far from such a thing ever, as she is mahfooz and the highest caliber of women (Sayyidun Nisa), but Sayyiduna Muhammad (Sallahu Alyhi wa Alihi was Salam) is proving a point by making this reference (of absolute justice.)

    Now imagine appealing to emotion by commenting the same way as Sayyid Irfan Shah Sahib (hafizullah) said at (6:23) on the hadith mentioned above (post #17),


    I suspect it was hidden rifdh has compelled that person to cut and post Dr Jalali's video out of context, and create this fitna. This, in my opinion is worse than what Dr Tahir is blamed for prior, (Waqia Siffin) possibly a by product of that whole fiasco?

    It would not be far fetched to assume ,had we not had this hadith with proper sanad, that some would reject it purely on the matn. I can personally attest to this I have family member's who reject said hadith purely on matn's bases, and some entertain that it was some other Fatimah ibn Muhammad, not Sayyidun Nisa [same family, both fans of Dr Tahir Ul Qadri].(as some tafzilis and rafidis have actually done, despite the proper sanad, personally can attest to this.)


    The filial(biological and spiritual) piety that Islam demands , with the Desi hue , is being superimposed to suppress these subtle matters, and what is hoped is that , simply the fear of being branded as either Khariji or Rafdhi should steer people away from diving into these matters.

    .
    Kamiliyya of Hubb e Ahle Bayt and Sahaba is indeed incumbent on us all, All the Ulama involved don't want that pillar to issue let alone crumble, but to accuse Dr Jalali's action or position to be in contradiction to this notion and waxing lyrical on how devastating it is , is a far cry from the reality of the matter. The original video this whole commotion was about it years old, and unlike (Dr tahir's opening of cann worms which were welcome with conspicuous behavior) , no one has even thought let alone speak against the Maqam and Hurmat of Sayyid al Nisa (alayha salam was radhiallahu anha) nor the Ahle Bayt at large, so where is the product of "kharijiyat," supposedly feared to result from it.

    Alas if it is indeed the case, and this Khata' (ijtijhadi) is "na qable bardasht," as some would put it (ie. Hz Kokab Noorni) , then as Dr Jalali Sahib logically puts , what do we make of the absence of jijahk from these very people when it comes to the "Khat'a Ijtihadi" made by the Ambiya, and Prophets who by the way were Ma'soom?

    Is it a matter of GAL VICH OR HAI?

    Simple IF Khata Ijtihadi is appropriate to say and acknowledge that is has occured for Prophets (minus caveat of ikhtilaf on best terminology) then Afortiori, it is even more so for those who are Mahfooz (and or non Ma'soom).
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  12. Yaseen

    Yaseen Active Member

    I've avoided commenting on the current issue re fadak but as a layperson i find ths whole saga very disheartening. I think the rafzi elements within ahle sunnat are making full use of dr jalalis comments to deflect from their own vile beliefs. Syed irfan shah sahib has also voiced his opinion on the matter.
     
  13. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    What Tahir ul says in this video seems acceptable. But remember, HE was the own who started the fitnah. HE was the one who said there isn't a single book in praise of Amir Muawiyah رضي الله عنه. HE said where has the idea of holding events for Amir Muawiyah come from?

    That's not the Sunni position.

    The Sunni position has always been:

    فرق مراتب بے شمار
    اور حق بدست حیدرے کرار
    مگر معاویہ بھی ہمارے سردار
    طعن ان پربھی کار فجار

    The differences in rank are innumerable and the truth is with Haydar Karrār [the attacking lion, Ali] but Muawiyah too is our leader and reviling him is the work of sinners.

    Sukut means don't revile. It doesn't mean don't praise him. It doesn't mean don't write books praising or defending him. It doesn't mean don't do his urs.

    We are very clear about Amir Muawiyah: his ijtihad was mistaken. Whoever says he was correct and Mawla Ali رضي الله عنه was wrong is a khariji. He is a sahabi and we only speak good of all sahabah.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  14. sunni_92

    sunni_92 New Member

    upload_2020-7-1_16-23-55.png

    @FaqirHaider His views on Hz Muawiyah..this is from wajahat hussain al hanafis FB page

    Addresses them as Mamu..Shows you the intelligence amongst tafdeelis
     
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    tip: use sharex for snipping portions of text. very handy tool. if you are a windows person like me, use edit with paint to highlight the passages you want us to see.

    https://getsharex.com/
     
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    we tried to obtain that book - as i had promised to analyse it and "fact-check" it. but we were not successful. if we get the book, we will keep our promise, in sha'Allah.

    ---
    the reason sunnis are being waylaid by charlatans is because we abandoned learning and were content with fiery speeches which were rousing indeed, but very less in content. the result a big vaccuum of knowledge among common people. this was exploited by these salesmen who were confident that by the time their products were put to test, they would have made millions.

    khayr. sunnis should wake up - put an end to this naat/speech culture and go back to books. if at all there should be a speech, it should be at least +5 or +6 on our wazometer.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Ghulam Ali, FaqirHaider and Aqdas like this.
  17. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    An interesting note : Dr Tahir ul Qadri had made a similar statement and warned his followers regarding this
    as seen here , so it won't be fair to blame the Dr after his warning (objection about Dr Tahir on other grounds will be irrelevant to this matter and a red herring)



    Ironically we see the despite the warning, you have individuals who have or do fall into both camps. This Wajahat Hussain being one of them, not adhering to the advice of his Teacher.

    Let it be a warning, either its a matter that should not be in the public (good luck with this approach in the day of digital social media), or requires a ground up proper approach and instilling of principles by our madrasas, and homes as to navigate this point in history.

    Prevention is better than Disease.
    But then when the disease has already spread, one should not hesitate to take the medicine however bitter.
     
  18. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    Clarity : I don't agree with jumbling Hazrat Mu'awiya's intention with that of his followers or a group of rebels who sided with him, this is the narrative that is being pushed by this camp, is that Hazrat Mu'awiyya was of the same nefarious intention as the camp who killed Sayyiduna Uthman. They push a narrative that tries to include Hazrat Mu'awiya in the "group of rebels" in the Hadith of Ammar (radhiallahu anhu), also Mulla Ali Qari does point out that ta'weel done by Hazrat Mu'awiya as weak and infact a tahreef . His followers (or at least a group among them) were indeed rebels and Sayyiduna Ali was right in pointing this out (this is the truth), all Hazrat Mu'awiya had to say afterward was that (not "all" of us are rebels), and he is right in this regard, because his intention was different from his followers, even if it was only him , them he isn't wrong to say" not All", however far reaching it may sound to the contender. Despite Hazrat Mullah Ali Qari's strong objection It is my understanding that this action of Hazrat Mu'awiya vindicates him from being in line with his follower, since he tried to do taweel/tahreef however far fetched and enough for people to have reservation, since this point would have been made known to Sayyiduna Ali , but we know Sayyiduna Ali's ethical and moral demeanor being unmatched did not say anything out right (like how these camps end up doing.)

    We have been given a simple guideline, there isn't ever a need to discuss Sayyiduna Ali in comparison to Hazrat Mu'awiyya (ever), the difference is a thousand folds, those who persist in doing so "to sieve out" ridh or the like are opening a can of worms. Also for "laymen" or even elite who are born into Islam, and have been granted the favor and blessing of Islam without effort, it is a shallow and petty move to nit pick on the conflict found in these matters, only to fancy their own image of "taqwa," or "understanding," especially when the reality is they are are far form what they imagine themselves to be, and they seem to have a confirmation bias in the sense that they believe had they lived in the time they would see the truth as clear as day, and would have sided with Sayyiduna Ali with 100% certainty.

    Ill post the reference here :
    IMG_3810.jpg
    IMG_3808.jpg
    IMG_3809.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  19. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    Yeah I become aware, he is of the camp that calls Hazrat Mu'awiya "AND" his camp baghi. Which I neither subscribe too, and Alhamdullilah Sayyid Irfan Shah Mashhadi lecture's and debates served valuable in this.

    But it is no "demeaning" matter when it is said Hazrat Mu'awwiya was mistaken (khata') in ijtihad , as for his camp then all the sahaba with him were on the same wrong ijtihad or that there is no comparison in the ranks of Hazrat Mu'awiyya and the Khulafa, or the Asha'ra Mubashara. As for be ghuna, I think its fair to say that not all Sahaba are mahfooz but as for us laymen and "more khatar kar and guna ghar," it should not bother us and we should rather focus on ourselves and leave that topic all together (ma la yani). It would indeed be a shia trait to go extensively into the history and biography of each sahabi (often the ones who had little to no sohbat with the prophet ) and start nit picking to prove a point.

    Sunnis should be aware of the contenders points, especially if they live near or around either Shias or Tafzilis, and understand its proper context and refute them, but to simply dismiss the notion that mistakes were made under the pretext mistakes that they are ijtihadi mistakes is not strong defense especially since not all Sahaba are Mujtahids.

    I've been seeing two camps arising one that in the name of sanctity of "ALL" sahaba end up shying from drawing the line, and then the other party who in the name of "honoring" the "AHL-e-Bayt/Ahle-kisa" (mihajis and co. ie wajahat) cross the line without hesitance.

    Dawat-e-Islami (may Allah preserve them in their good work) ended up in the fist camp as a counter measure to the second camp by their slogan (be ghuna be khata') but they made ruju when the point was brought out, and this is Hazrat Ghazi e Millat (hafizullah)'s video on this



    There are definitely double standards held by some people, for Instance Mufti Hanif, would comfortably say Hazrat Mu'awwiya was wrong (ijtihad/mistake) in the matter of Siffin, which is the proper and correct, both empirically and logically , but then there is "jijahk" or hesitance when it came to the recent issue of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr and Sayyidatuna Fatimah"(radhiuallu Anhuma), and the answer isn't so clear cut anymore ? How come? (as in , Clearly the correct "Ijtihad" was with Sayyiduna Abu Bakr).

    I would like some clarity, is holding this position "alone" considered Tafzili? I thought tafzlili (as the name would suggest) was contingent on Holding Sayyiduna Ali (and or Ahle Bayt) afzal in rank over Sayyiduna Abu Bakr and Sayyiduna Umar (radhiallahu'anhum ajmaeen).

    I am familiar that holding Sayyiduna Ali over Sayyiduna Uthman is a sunni position although some people even feel sensitive over this issue.
     
  20. YaMustafa

    YaMustafa Well-Known Member

    Wajahat hussain is not sunni. He is tafzili at the least. He insults hazrat muawiya. Self-studied.
     

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