Is it Possible for Prophets to commit small sins that DO NOT display low charachter?

Discussion in 'Refutation' started by AR Ahmed, Oct 22, 2019.

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  1. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Active Member

    Huzoor Syed Irfan Shah sahib qiblah refutes the same type of be-adabi coming from the Wahabies like Dr. Israr
  2. IslamIsTheTruth

    IslamIsTheTruth Active Member

    This brother highlights the errors of the ahbash, regarding their erroneous positions...
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the positions will be clarified in sha'Allah

    in summary, the ahbash are ill-mannered and uncouth, utterly without adab when speaking about prophets, particularly sayyidul anbiya'a alayhis salatu was salam.

    in a dars, the late shaykh abdullah sirajuddin raHimahullah said, explaining a verse from surah al-hujurat. people can do whatever - but without adab, it is all habaa'an manthura. al-iyadhu billah. nas'alu Allaha al-aafiyah.

    we started our talk by the Word of Allah - glory to Him - where He says addressing believers: "O you who believe, do not raise your voice above the voice of the Prophet" [sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam].

    Allah ta'ala has commanded believers to be respectful, and observe good-manners [be udaba, people of adab] with RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. and He has admonished and warned those who would be disrespectful or ill-mannered with this honourable prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    if a person behaves with even the tiniest of disrespect or discourtesy with him [i.e. the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam] Allah ta'ala has warned him and warned such a person seriously - that every good deed of his will be destroyed; and He said: "your good deeds will be destroyed and you will not even realise".

    and then, Allah praised those who are respectful, and behave most respectfully and are mindful of the courtesy due in his presence - sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam - Allah ta'ala has praised such people and promised them the truest of piety, after their being tested for piety [i.e. to observe courtesy and respect towards the prophet] and after succeeding in that test. He has promised them an encompassing forgiveness, and a great reward.

    these are glad tidings that Allah ta'ala has given specially to those who are respectful towards His honourable Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    and in it is also a warning: that a believer: even if he is a person who does good deeds, is pious, righteous, obeys commandments and abstains from that which Allah ta'ala has prohibited, YET - he will not attain success, nor succeed in the test of piety until he has proven that he is respectful towards the Prophet sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam. nor will he attain the pure-gold [ibriz] of righteousness - nor sincere piety - and that is piety of the hearts, which is higher than the piety of limbs, piety in deeds and words.

    no one will reach this state UNLESS he behaves with utmost respect and reverence [adab al-kamil] with the honourable messenger alayhi's salatu wa's salam.

    Allah ta'ala did not affirm that a person - no matter how much he does good deeds, no matter how righteous and pious a man is, no man who does deeds seeking to be closer to Allah; Allah did not affirm that such a person would succeed in the examination of righteousness and piety [taqwa] - nor the pure-gold, the higher level of righteousness, that of the hearts, EXCEPT for those who are respectful and are extremely reverent with this honourable prophet of Allah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    and He did not say: "these are a people, whose hearts Allah has examined for righteousness" except in regards to those who are respectful towards RasulALlah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.

    and so also the guarantee of forgiveness. Allah ta'ala says: "for them is forgiveness". this is a great glad tiding - and this entails paradise.

    forgiveness and great reward [ajrun azeem] is paradise. two great glad tidings that Allah ta'ala has guaranteed for whom? for those who are respectful [have the greatest adab] towards RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  4. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Active Member

    Also see taliqat e raza p. 297, 299
  5. AR Ahmed

    AR Ahmed Active Member

    Hazrat Mufti Ahmad Yar Khan Na`imi rahmatullahi alayh writes
    ’نبیاء کرام ارادۃ گناہ کبیرہ کرنے سے ہمیشہ معصوم ہیں کہ جان بوجھ کر نہ تو نبوت سے پہلے گناہ کبیرہ کرسکتے ہیں اور نہ اس کے بعد ہاں نسیانا خطا ءً صادر ہوسکتے ہیں ‘‘۔(جاء الحق ۔ص:434)

    AlaHazrat alayhir rahmat wa ridwan writes in Fatawa Ridawiyya sharif jild 29

    (۵)بلکہ خود نفس عبارت گواہ ہے کہ یہ جسے ذنب فرمایا گیا ہر گز حقیقۃً ذنب بمعنی گناہ نہیں۔

    ما تقدّم سے کیا مراد لیا،وحی اترنے سے پیشتر کے،اور گناہ کسے کہتے ہیں،مخالفتِ فرمان کو،اور فرمان کا ہے سے معلوم ہوگا،وحی سے۔تو جب تك وحی نہ اتری تھی فرمان کہاں تھا جب فرمان نہ تھا مخالفتِ فرمان کے کیا معنی،اور جب مخالفتِ فرمان نہیں تو گناہ کیا۔

    (۶)جس طرح ماتقدم میں ثابت ہولیا کہ حقیقۃً ذنب نہیں۔یوں ہی ماتاخر میں نقد و قت ہے قبل ابتدائے نزول فرمان جو افعال جائز ہوئے کہ بعد کو فرمان ان کے منع پر اترا اور انہیں یوں تعبیر فرمایا گیا حالانکہ ان کا حقیقہً گناہ ہونا کوئی معنی ہی نہ رکھتا تھا۔یونہی بعدنزول وحی و ظہور رسالت بھی جو افعال جائز فرمائے اور بعد کو ان کی ممانعت اُتری اسی طریقے سے ان کو ما تاخر فرمایا کہ وحی بتدریج نازل ہوئی نہ کہ دفعۃً۔

    I assume what this means (and correct me if I'm wrong) that what is considered "sin" (dhamb), saghira or khilaf al awla, is not really a sin.

    A similar `ibarat is in Taliqat e Raza p. 298
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  6. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    The main points that need to be addressed are this:

    A)Those who say Sins (Major, minor that display low charachter, minor that donot display low charachter) are intrinsically impossible for Prophets.
    B) Those who say Sins (Major and minor that display low charachter) are intrinsically impossible for Prophets. However, small sins that donot display low charachter are possible for them.

    1) Which is the majority position A or B?
    2) If B is majority did the majority say position of A is a weak?

    While having a discussion on this topic, i have also heard the following:
    a) "With regards to what is the majority/minority view: Al-Taftazani in sharh al `aqai'd an nasafiyyah mentioned that the majority view is that certain small sins are possible for the prophets".
    b)"Al Qadi Iyad mentioned that the majority says that a certain type of sin is possible for the prophets. Al Nawawi mentioned this about al Qadi Iyad in Sharh Sahih Muslim".
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
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  7. Ibn Hadi

    Ibn Hadi Ya Ghaus e Azam Dastageer

    The Habashis are known to manipulate Sunni texts and push fringe opinions. This group is only good at refuting Wahhabis and Anthropomorphism. They teach basic fard ayn knowledge well. They fool many people into thinking they are staunch Sunnis. They receive funding from many shady sources. It is important that this cult be refuted. They make takfir of many big scholars of Ahlus Sunnah such as Imam Al Bouti, Shaykh Muhammad bin Alawi al Maliki, Imam Sharawi, and even accuse older scholars like Ibn Abidin and Ibn al Humam of kufr.

    It is important for this cult to be exposed and refuted.
  8. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    The following was posted on facebook: (Someone on facebook posted this. I am highlighting the important parts so that brothers could comment).

    "The majority of Ahl us Sunnah wal Jama'ah said that the extent of the impeccable character of the Prophets عليهم السلام is that they never commit kufr/blasphemy, kabaa'ir/enormous sins, or the saghaa'ir/small sins that entail meanness or low character before or after Prophethood. They said that they may commit the small sins that are less than that. To reach this conclusion they relied upon the apparent meanings of verses and ahadith that attribute sins to the Prophets عليهم السلام such as:
    وَعَصَىٰ آدَمُ رَبَّهُ
    Which literally means:
    Adam disobeyed his Lord

    إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ غَفَرَ لَكَ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِنْ ذَنْبِكَ وَمَا تَأَخَّرَ‏
    Which literally means:
    Certainly Allah already forgave you (Muhammad) your previous sins and what comes after.
    فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَاسْتَغْفِرْ لِذَنبِكَ
    Which literally means:
    Have definite knowledge that certainly none is rightfully worshipped except Allah and seek forgiveness for your sins

    A minority of scholars of Ahl us Sunnah wal Jama'ah said that they committed something less than what was better and that they didn't commit actual sins. Another minority group said that any sin that a Prophet did occurred before they were commissioned as Prophets. The minority groups premised their position upon the fact that we are ordered to follow the Prophets عليهم السلام and said that if a Prophet sinned then we would be ordered to sin. The majority negated this argument by stating that the Prophet that sins would be guided to repent before anyone could follow him in that. They deemed the argument of the minority as weak and they didn't find their ta'wil(interpretating with other than the apparent meaning) of the verses that attribute sins to the Prophets as valid. The minority didn't deem the majority as kuffar. The majority didn't make any exceptions for the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم hence 2 of the verses previously mentioned apparently order the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to seek forgiveness for his sins and inform that he was forgiven for his sins. So even if no one ever previously said that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم really committed a sin before, the statement that the verses that attribute sins to the Prophets are to be taken literally is the same as making such a statement. So those who have come with this agenda against AICP to say that we are slandering the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم have accused the majority of the scholars of the same thing. Furthermore their charging us with deviance for not deeming the Prophets عليهم السلام impeccable of committing the minor sins that do not entail meanness or low character is a judgment that the rawafidh made against Ahl us Sunnah wal Jama'ah over this issue. Ironically they have also accused us of following the rawafidh for deeming whoever opposed Imam 'Aliyy عليه السلام as committing an enormous sin. Even though this judgement was mentioned by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم , Imams Abu Hanifah, AshShafi'yy, Al Asha'ariyy, Al Bayhaqiyy, ArRaf'iyy and others. So they have fallen into what they were running from".

    Probably brother Abu Hassan could comment on this.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  9. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    Jazak Allah brother. They should be refuted.
    The main part of the statement that concerned me was the speaker's calling the position "Prophets donot sin at all" as a) weak and a b) minority position.

    The speaker categorically says that sins that are "minor and donot display low charachter" are possible AND he goes on to refute the position of Khilaf al awla.
  10. Alf

    Alf Active Member

    I think we need to also mention here what sin means if and when used for a prophet; choosing something good in place of the better.
  11. Sunni By Nature

    Sunni By Nature Active Member

    The students of Shaykh Abdullah al-Harari and the Ahbash have started making incorrect statements about the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)

    Shaykh Jamil Halim al-Hussayni states on page 92 of his book Qamar al-Sari that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) committed a sin, he also cut off Imam al-Maturidi’s statement on page 93.

    In the new editions of the book Bughyat At Taaleb of Shaykh Abdullah al-Harari the same statement is found on page 92, in the old editions this statement does not exist.

    They have started teaching this in Aicp [Association Of Islamic Charitable Projects] / Jam'iyyat al-Mashari' al-khayriyya al-Islamiyya [جمعية المشاريع الخيرية الإسلامية]

    Attached Files:

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  12. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail New Member

    Assalamu alaikum,
    I have read bad-amali. I am quoting the text here for reference.

    We believe that Prophets are Divinely Protected from committing sins,
    deliberately or inadvertently, whether enormities or minor sins. By common agreement, it
    is impossible for Prophets to commit enormities both before and after their prophethood;
    also, it is impossible for them to commit minor sins which are base, vile or despicable such
    as cheating, lying, etc. However, a group of Sunni scholars say that it is possible for them
    to commit a minor sin inadvertently [sahw]
    . Nevertheless, concerning our Prophet صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم
    there is a unanimous agreement among all the Islamic sects, that he صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم is immune from
    sins – whether major or minor, or committing sins deliberately or inadvertently.

    Today i came across a video:

    The speaker states:

    "The majority of scholars said that it is possible for Prophets to commit a sin that doesnot display low charachter and if he were to do so he would repent before anyone would follow him. And the minority of scholars from Ahlus Sunnah said that it is impossible and Prophets donot commit any sin.....The Majority said the Prophets are impeccable, protected from blasphemy, major sins and small sins that display vileness and low charachter in who commits them before prophethood and after prophethood. This point is important. Before Prophethood and after prophethood. And they are not protected from the small sins that donot display low charachter before Prophethood or after Prophethood "

    The speaker then goes on to show the position of the minority is weak. "Remember that the Majority of the scholars said that "the saying of the minority that the Prophets donot sin at all is a weak saying. It's evidence is weak." And don't be intimidated by those guys."
    a) Is this position that "Prophets donot sin at all" a minority position?
    b) Did the majority scholars of say that the position of the minority that"Prophets donot sin at all" is a weak position?

    I would be greatly thankful to the knowledgeable brothers here for their insights.
    Jazak Allah.
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