Is Ramadan 2012 starting on Friday ?

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by Shahid Hussain, Jul 24, 2012.

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  1. Shahid Hussain

    Shahid Hussain New Member

  2. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran


    I can only (sincerely) sympathise with the need to conform to a "broken" method out of compulsion, for the sake of avoiding "fitna" (how sad that by sticking to the Prophetic sunnah, one engenders fitna these days!).

    At least in UK, muslims are free of "state tyranny" and can choose to go with "more authentically" determined moonsighting by a committee representing a large body of ahl us-sunnah masajids. Then there is a massive proportion of those organisations which take Saudi moon declaration as the gospel authentication for moonsighting in UK (they reason that if an Islamic month has commenced in Makkah, then it should automatically start in world over). You could fault this methodology on several counts but they will remain slave to Saudi moon and Saudi what-not (even though in recent years Saudi officials have been at pains to clarify that their declaration is not a mandate for other countries to follow). Then there are sullah kullis which invariably make sulah with Saudi-inclined organisations, and for the sake of "peace" start their month on wrong dates. There is also a small body of masajids (even those with majority sunni congregation) which have enshrined in their constitution (yes, their man-made constitution's sanctity must be upheld over that of the Qur'an and sunnah!) that they must follow Regents Park (the torchbearer of salafism in UK).

    So with "free will" and a "choice of menu" comes responsibility to choose an Imam/mosque correctly. Fortunately, since past year or so, many a sullah kulli mosques have woken up to the folly of Saudi moon and have started following the declaration of ruyat-e-hilal committee. This year, a number of deobandi mosques have broken away from Saudi month commencement. Whether this awakening is going to be more permanent remains to be seen.

    ----

    Bigger question is what should an individual do if trapped in a state which erroneously commences the month. Should he "come to terms" or should he stick to "right" methodology? Is this dilemma different from the one faced with joining a congregational prayer - should a sunni join a salafi/deobandi/rafidi/deviant congregation (regular/jummah/Eid etc.) in the absence of the right option or should he offer his salah separately? Is a salah behind a fasiq Imam (or in fasiq mosque) valid under some circumstances or invalid under all circumstances?

    At least in the case of such salah while the validity of salah might be "questionable", there isn't much doubt about performing it at right time. But with an incorrectly determined commencement of month (either imposed by state or chosen by own will), neither will the fasting or Eid or qurbani be valid (no shades of grey there).

    As stated in Bukhari sharif, the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wasallam) strictly forbade observing fasting on the days of doubt (i.e. the 30th of shaban etc.). So what becomes of people who jump on Saudi bandwagon to start their Ramadhan a day earlier (when it should be 30th shaban) is an educated man's guess.

    ----

    As for Saudi moonsighting, the less said about their methodology the better. Only in 2011, they did this. One investigation found this. Couple of years back, I also came across another pamphlet where one scholar after investigation could not trace any of the so called people who had given shahadah for sighting.

    Statistically, there is 50% chance that an Islamic month would be of 29 days (so there is 50% chance that Ramadhan, Shawwal or Dhul Hijjah - the months most significantly dependent on moonsighting - would start after completing 29 days of previous month). By my reckoning in past 9 years (ever since I have been living in places open to Saudi moon fitna), Saudis have declared these 3 months to commence with 29th day moon on at least 80-85% occasions (which is mathematically significant deviation)! That statistics alone points to suspect Saudi methods.

    Clearly, there is a method to Saudi madness or madness in their method! Notwithstanding AQ's "laughing stock" comment, it's clear that the "joke" is on whom.

    ----

    In Fawaid al-Fuad, the malfuzat of Hazrat Nizamuddin Awliya (RadiAllahu Anhu), Mehboob-e-Ilahi recounts an incident in Lahore around/before the time of his stay in Ajodhan/Pakpattan. For couple of months before the month of Ramadhan, people in Lahore commenced the months after completing 30 days owing to poor visibility condition and lack of enough effort to determine the moonsighting. But then the error in doing was discovered when the moon for shawwal was sighted on 28th of Ramadhan. That year Lahore was ravaged by the most dreadful invasion by mongol hordes. After recounting this incident, Nizamudin Awliya (RadiAllahu Anhu) attributed that harrowing punishment to people's lack of effort in moonsighting.

    Is it then any wonder, when months are commenced on whims, why we muslims in these age keep staring at one dreadful fitna after another.
     
  3. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    In fact (as I heard an Imam inform our jummah congregation yesterday), there are 7 Prophetic hadiths in Sihah Sitta which categorically state that if the moon is not sighted on 29th of the month, then 30 days should be completed. But strange is the madness to get ahead of the "other" in declaring the start of the month (esp. when it comes to the Eid moon).
     
  4. Taalib-e-Ilm

    Taalib-e-Ilm Well-Known Member

    the moon was sighted today so ramadan does start tomorrow
     
  5. sunni92

    sunni92 New Member

    If sighting is a requirement, then why do we not bother sighting the moon when the previous month has completed 30 days i.e. if we don't see the moon on chaand raat, then we complete 30 days and then don't bother sighting the moon the following night (1st night of the new month)? I realize you wouldn't need to since a month can have only 29 or 30 days, but then doesn't that mean actual sighting is not required? And is only a method of determining whether the month has started?

    (Note: just thinking out loud above and trying to get a better understanding of the arguments, not advocating one option over the other....)
     
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i don't know really, but i made the same point about other countries.

    if it IS bogus, then how/why do other neighboring countries attest and confirm to it by their own sightings time and again. in the past, countries like jordan, syria, lebanon, egypt, uae, have simultaneously announced sightings the same time saudi arabia announced.

    this year too, the uae announced a confirmed sighting and announced Ramadan even before the saudi announcement.

    it all comes down to the issue of whose shahadah do we follow and where. many times tunisia reports a sighting but morocco doesn't! this year too uae started friday, while neighboring oman starts tomorrow!

    while in europe or the west you do not have a central muslim authority and can go with your trusted mufti/sighting body, those muslims staying in such muslim countries are bound by official announcements by the authorities, and rubbishing the official announcements by the authorities is nothing more than breeding fitnah on this specific issue.

    so if the announcements by the authorities, at least the ones they say are based on sightings of hilal, are to be rubbished, we need a proper fatwa stating that individual groups just form their own sighting committees and go with what ever their own committee sighted and should in no way shape or form trust any arab sighting or announcement by an arab government (in addition to the requirement to secretly and separately celebrate Eid as the government wouldn't permit a public deviation on Eid dates!). we basically need a fatwa authorizing anarchy and civil disobedience to a bunch of arab governments, not just the saudi wahabis! surely we need a uniform and consistent approach on dealing with the issue.

    ------

    plus on what grounds am i to trust that site? a site that endorses bleeding ignoramuses such as javed ghamdi, qardinul tahir, and yusuf qaradawi - who are all bigger fitnah mongers in these times than the wahabis themselves!

    even if the site in itself was trustworthy, who is to give a guarantee that the human error is really in the one doing the sighting and not in the ones doing the calculations to predict whether a sighting is possible or not?! if it all comes down to human error, just who will check and announce whose error?

    notwithstanding the fact that that is a mixing of rulings. if you are using calculations to verify the validity of a sighting, then what are you eventually following - the calculation or the physical sighting?

    if you follow the ruling that ONLY PHYSICAL SIGHTING OF HILAL determines the validity of the month, then how does this approach of using the 'calculated possibility of sighting' as the deciding factor, verifier, and qualifier of the physical sighting serve that purpose?!

    that is the crux of the issue for those who follow the ruling that sightings decide the month (as opposed to those who follow the ruling that calculations decide)

    you'd be a laughing stock if you allege that saudis announce based on a calculated moonbirth, when they emphatically state that they announce based on a physical sighting of the hilal!

    for a reply to your "come to terms" comment, see above
     
  7. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    AQ's moonsighting stance is probably based on his own set of hypotheses or else it's been shaped by need to "come to terms" with some personal circumstances. Given his earlier views (here and here), I would have been very surprised if AQ didn't make the above comments.

    ---

    Bottomline are three basic factors:
    1. Exact time of Birth of Moon by Location - determined by astronomical calculation
    2. (Possibility of) Visibility of Moon by Location - determined by astronomical/moonsighting charts
    3. Actual Sighting by Location:
    (i) Strictly Local Sighting
    (ii) Sighting in Neighbouring Locations/Countries - it can be argued which locations (to the east or west longitudinally) can be considered neighbouring
    (iii) Sighting in (any or some) Far-Flung Locations
    I understand that there is significant divergence in viewpoint on issue of sighting.

    To be clear:
    (A) (2) & (3) are not possible without (1)
    (B) Islamic month doesn't start with (1) (see here or here). Islamic month never starts with moon birth (mahaaq), but with moon-sighting (hilal). No school of fiqh (to my knowledge) commences month with mahaaq. While (1) is the "necessary" condition, it is not a "sufficient" condition for start of a month.
    (C) (3) is heavily dependent on (2) (depending on degree of visibility and interpretation of "neighbouring"/reference location).
    (D) Even with the best degree/condition of visibility, there's no guarantee of physical sighting.

    ---

    As can be expected, Saudi's Umm al-Qura calendar is neither here nor there approach, but a typical blunt square peg solution for round hole issue. How often (though not always) has Saudi month started without (1) & (2)?
     
  8. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    if it's not bogus, aq, then why don't countries much further west never get to see it?
     
  9. sunni92

    sunni92 New Member

    What do the brothers think of using astronomical calculations for determining the islamic months?

    See Fiqh Council of North America http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/ or Tahir ul-qadri's video in Aqdas' link above
     
  10. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    the thing is, that the calculations and simulations data on that website (moonsighting.com) is also prone to error and simply can't be taken to be God's honest truth, so it's still a case of: chances of human error vs chances of human error.

    plus following sites like that as a qualifier to accept or reject a sighting makes a case that any sighting is eventually dependent on calculations from such bodies and websites, meaning that one is eventually really following calculations. it simply makes a very confusing case for people who follow the opinion that physical sighting is what determines the beginning/end of a month and simply not astronomer's calculations!

    before the saudis announced their sighting, the uae also already had a firm announcement and a confirmation of sighting.

    in many cases, the saudi sighting is attested to by sightings in lebanon or jordan or syria, and i daresay the nwfp in pakistan. granted this year iraqi sunnis and syrians do not start the same day as saudi.

    bottom line - they (the saudis) still gotta do a 29 or 30 day ramadan and don't have any reason or room to play with sightings. one could allege stupidity and incompetence to them and rightly so on many matters, but as i said, many a time, their sightings are simply attested to by muslims of neighboring countries too.

    --------

    people need to state the opinion they follow properly.

    - sighting only, rejecting calculations

    - calculations only, without any concerns for who saw what

    - sighting dependent on calculations, which really makes it equal to the position mentioned above this since the calculations are the deciding factor to accept or reject a sighting.

    personally, i think people like moonsighting.com are fitnah-mongers and attention seekers and nothing more than that. we have many such people who simply wish to leave their mark and wish for their voices to be heard these days.

    if we do follow the opinion that the correct qualifier is sighting and not calculations, then additionally we either pass a fatwa of "every man sights for himself" or "we simply don't trust arab sightings and think the arabs are all incompetent fools" or we learn to stop breeding/promoting fitnah in this manner. sorry to say but it's simply nauseating to suggest that this or that sighting is "bogus" because the error-free-and-honest-to-God calculations done by human astronomers suggest otherwise, and needless to say, does no favors to pull people towards maslak-e-ala hazrat.

    we can meaningfully oppose the wahabis even without opposing them just for the sake of opposing them on cases such as this!
     
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

  12. ahlus-sunnah

    ahlus-sunnah Veteran

    Is Ramadan 2012 starting on Friday ?

    As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

    I pray this finds everyone in the best of states; seeking proximity to Allah Most High and His Beloved ﷺ,

    There is simply no chance of a moon sighting this Thursday, so for all those who want to start your fast on Friday – think again.

    Although science tells us that the New Moon will be born around 04.00 (UTC) on the 19th July 2012 – this does not mean Ramadan should start on Friday. In fact this conclusively proves Ramadan starts on Saturday, and I will tell you why.

    Firstly the sighting has to take place from Maghrib up until Fajr beginning time (the true dawn). If you look at the diagram attached you will see this is not physically possible in the UK. Qualified Muslim astronomers and reliable visibility forecasts indicate that on Thursday, the only lands in the world that have a likelihood of a pure sighting of the moon are areas within the South Pacific Ocean and South America.

    Full Article Here:

    http://seekerofthesacredknowledge.wordpress.com/2012/07/19/is-ramadan-2012-starting-on-friday/
     

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