Is there ijma'a on contagious disease?

Discussion in 'Hadith' started by FaqirHaider, Jun 16, 2020.

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  1. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    Which ignorance? the Pakistani Conspiracy Theorist one? I have researched this matter more than the laymen, that,I can assure you. I never made claim to be a subject matter expert, I was actually giving my 2-cents.


    Have a look in the mirror when you accuse someone of not reading a matter in detail, I provide the Arabic texts from the sources. You yourself have done the same but relying on Urdu / English translation with [SHARH] in not only the hadith but the MATN (ie: the word Intrinsically is never found in the text of the hadith).


    You will realize that I did indeed research the issue more than some, if you go back and read through the scans I posted, additional to the one I will post.


    But I will say my research in this subject is basic, and I focused on the Islamic side, not the secular medical scientific side.




    Brother you’d be hard-pressed to prove it from this angle , since the hadith you mention, are not in relation to purely Safar, its related to all other superstition (misunderstanding), but yes I confess It is not a explicit denial, but it can be assumed (As I will provide later).


    In cased you missed those hadith here they are again from Kanz ul Ummal :
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  2. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    Yes, brother that’s what I said, I said it’s not about (accepting or rejecting) correlation, correlation was something the Jahiliya Arabs could even see, it was to clarify the correlation (both in theological and approach to this correlation [Correlation ≠ Causation]. You misjudged my statement yet again.

    Again Agreed.

    This is your inference not an implication of the hadith, can be contended, as I will bring forth, at this point it is mubah to either take or not take precaution. The precaution you can suggest is not substantiated in this hadith especially in my case, because the hadith clearly says a healthy owner of the livestock can travel anywhere, which would include sick areas. Of course, one can then infer to the other Hadith corpus and build an argument for either case. The tying the camel hadith in contradiction to the majzoom hadith as I mentioned, so can’t be applied here, because according to the hadith I mentioned in my previous posts, tying the camel would be equivalent to having Tawakkul alone, and no further action is “wajib/necessary.” If you wanted to argue it was recommended or suggested, you would not have questioned using “responsibility,” as a scapegoat.


    Dear brother It isn’t a matter of cherry picking, as much as it is preference, I will post the opinions of the Ulama on this issue, for clarity.





    I said your argument against me, makes me seem as if I am taking a Jabari approach, particularly in their position absolve themselves of any responsibility for any action they take. You keep “missing the point” Not my intent at all, of course I’m responsible for all the choices I make, just not all of them are blameworthy or reprehensible.

    I voluntarily use a car to go to the masjid, with slight rain weather conditions. As its well known that the first few minutes are the most dangerous as either hydroplaning can occur or traction loss. Rain causes more accidents then snow, fog or even sleet, in the US alone nearly 6000 people die yearly, and 450,000 have rain related accidents. Now, this wasn’t heavy (stormy) rain, whose effect and danger is conspicuous and AADI, (90-99%) it impairs vision on the road, or extreme scotching heat which takes immediate effect 90-99% of the time, this was simply light rain, according to your logic, despite it being light rain, even a 0.001%, it puts me at “blameworthy responsibility,” and for what intending to go to the Masjid?

    Maybe someone will say, OH you should have known that cars hydroplane and skid during rain, you should have walked (in light rain), safer with an umbrella, its indeed a solution at the expense of practical implementation of the deen (especially for people who DRIVING takes 15-20 minutes to the masjid at the least, that could be 30-45 minutes or more walking).

    In regards to general contagion and specifically COVID I don’t have the voluntarily capability to make someone sick (diseased, be they asymptomatic or not). Just because there is correlation with the voluntary action of intermingling and not wearing mask or gloved (in relation to airborne / contagion) is insufficient grounds to hold me responsible (in blameworthy sense).




    I don’t think I am missing the point; I just think you don’t want to listen to “my” point, and push “your point. I never said it’s “ONLY,” in relation to the SUBJECT, it was in relation to your hypothetical question, also to even assume such a thing from my saying “no harm at all” is silly, since that’s clearly a hyperbole, was is meant in case you didn’t assume is that the harm is insignificant and not worthy to mention, especially since ALL your hypothetical question said was a drink with a 3% chance of death, you neither mentioned symptoms leading to death or otherwise, a 3% silent killer drink.


    It was my answer to your question, lets give a real practical example, fats food, its reported that in the US , out of 2 million people contract antibiotic resistant infection leading to 23000 deaths from them. So quick maths : 23000/2000000 = 0.0115% chance of death for every 2 million fast food infected patients, but that’s infected, lest look at the odds of infection if we consider 80% of Americans consuming Fats food, 80 % of 324 million = 260 million, potential infection rate = 0.008%.

    What this means is that eating a burger at Mcdonalds , you have a 0.008% chance of getting an infection in which case known medicine wont work, which further can lead to a 0.01% chance of Death.

    Source : https://www.partnersforyourhealth.com/fast-food-statistics

    I will support an advocate the precaution and steering of junk/fast food, but not on the premise of death or chance of infection, but on “Immediate” effect like high glucose, High Salt , intake of Unhealthy and harmful ingredients taking immediate effect on the body.

    Alhamdullilah as Muslims, we have halal restaurants and proper hyenine and ‘Islam’ mandates proper ethical measures of sanitization and slaughtering, so I’m not considering Halal food in the stat,


    Are you saying that even to prevent minor harm or simple sickness we should be the impetus for adapt precautionary measures?! Is this THE FACTOR in question when it comes to COVID or any EPIDEMIC, because the second would imply seasonal flu, so that means we should always wear masks because of “unknown” number asymptotic carriers for ANY infection. Are you saying that those who don’t wear masks during pollen season or flue season are RESONSIBLE for all subsequent consequences resulting from their intake and spread of that disease? This responsibility being accountable on the day of Judgment ?!

    Are most people aren’t shutting their doors and social distancing out of fear from mild symptoms, the general harm that comes from severe flu and other common diseases doesn’t compel people to lock themselves at home, but at a high mortality rate and severe symptoms does, so YES it is MORE about Mortality than HARM when it comes to the reason behind people's fears.

    Besides the fact , it was in flow of argument, since just previously you conveniently provided statistics centered at the mortality (17%), when you bought out in your statics to highlight the “Dangers,” and “taking responsibility,” and not hiding behind the “excuse of qadr,” additional to the your own initial re-framing of the argument on bases on conclusion and not effect.



    Well that’s makes everything clear, and explains why I was missing the point, this was never my MAWQIF, your Mawqif seems that the only way to acknowledgment correlation is to show a degree of responsibility.


    I had clarified that if by degree of responsibility if you mean “agency,” then that was already agreed to and acknowledged, but you clearly continued the discussion beyond that point so clearly that is not what you meant.


    You want me to acknowledge a degree on “reprehensible responsibility,” or “accountability,” of my actions.


    And this is where things will get difficult as it will “re-backfire from me back to you .”



    Straw man, I never said this This is a side-track.


    All irrelevant questions, it’s all to push your narrative and frame the argument around responsibility in impact of the virus with patients and their respective environment. Again, you are framing it on basis of subsequent conclusion, whereas my view it to look at immediate effect, if it is consistent it is Aadi. Especially since I didn’t dismiss correlation once symptoms manifest.

    When was this about the 20% elderly? You missed my point and proceeded to create a straw man, none of these aforementioned points were denied or considered conjecture. My point was in retaliation to the assumption that not wearing a mask will lead to the acquisition of COVID is conjecture, not the resulting factors. The mere fact that these statistics are not set in stone, that by itself would put it at conjecture. (because as more data is pooled the numbers change) you cannot say for a fact that it’s a 20-30% fatality rate for elders, and we will see what the rate is as of present. Conjecture is by definition a conclusion based on “incomplete” information; it does not mean it’s necessarily a false conclusion. The conjecture is on the first point, not on matters subsequent consequences and effects once someone does have the virus.

    So, again what was Conjecture with COVID is the assumption COVID is asymptomatically in majorty of people in effected areas and is spreading this way, therefore we must wear masks and gloves to prevent infection and death.

    That was what I meant as conjecture, since more proof is needed to substantiate this claim. If you think this is generalization, you not living in the same country I same country I am because that’s how the News and Government are going about it. I see three types of people, those who haphazardly are intermingling and not caring for government laws, the other who wont even shake hands out of fear of possibly acquiring a virus, won’t go to the masjid 5 times, but will go “grocery shopping,” will sit in the same car going to the masjid, but will demand 6 ft difference in the saf, and the last who balance between the approach with the understanding that bases more emphasis on the Hadith then “pathology experts.” These are all happening. Yes not in large numbers, but in many cases it’s in direct reaction to the fear and “protocol,” given by the government and “Health organization,” and then ulama who criticize this approach are branded “disappointing.”




    Same argument is repeated ten times over, as I said its circumstantial, one will be responsible in agency and action, but “blameworthy accountability,” is not taken for granted.



    Okay is it a False Analogy now? Interesting there is a research by Medical and PHD professionals who may have missed this point at the Stanford Prevention Research Center

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.05.20054361v1.full.pdf (Population-level COVID-19 mortality risk for non-elderly individuals overall and for nonelderly individuals without underlying diseases in pandemic epicenters).


    Their Conclusion being:


    People <65 years old have very small risks of COVID-19 death even in the hotbeds of the pandemic and

    deaths for people <65 years without underlying predisposing conditions are remarkably uncommon.

    Strategies focusing specifically on protecting high-risk elderly individuals should be considered in

    managing the pandemic.


    What is in blue is what you really have to worry about when you are worried about hospitals being filled up because of naivete of people as myself.



    If you still want to dismiss it as a false analogy it doesn’t help your case anyway, as demonstrated prior. Because % of casualties is irrelevant to the issue of responsibility.




    Hasty Generalization and Ad hominem, I am neither Pakistani nor do I pose myself as an expert.


    Critiquing or objecting an expert doesn’t not mean that one considers himself too to be an expert.






    Well you just said my comparison was a false analogy fallacy and a red herring, but then you affirm that it isn’t not a false analogy fallacy in term of responsibility, this is contradictory, all the 6 reasons you mentioned have completely different statistical outcomes and jumbling them together created a loaded question.


    Which one of these 6 are you are comparing not wearing a mask and hand to?

    Don’t answer, it’s a red-herring remember?
     
  3. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    I appreciate the statistics as they are useful to understand who is at higher risk, but this again is where you committed a red herring with a framing effect bias.

    To know about what framing effect is please watch this video:



    It’s a clear red herring, by shifting the topic from all people, to “my parents,” or “elderly people.” This discussion was never about elderly people, nor even about Pakistanis for that matter. This discussion was to be understood holistically, considering all possible external and internal factors, the effect of simply not wearing a “mask or glove.”

    Why frame it at a 20% fatality rate and not a 80% survival rate? Look how the mortality rate for ventilated corvid patients is stratified for those aged 18 to 65 at 76.4% and 65+ at 97.2%, there is a HUGE difference in the physiology and immunity of people aged 18-40 compared to 40+ , how come it doesn’t didn’t mention the stratified age percentile of 18 to 30 and 30 to 40? Let alone that fact that this research was in NYC, which for unknown factors has even a higher case of fatality compared to other states and cities.

    Every country will be looked differently and measured different in terms of precautionary injunctions and advice, because each country and citizen have independent and dependent factors some known others unknown that create different statistical outcomes.

    Clearly your noble concern is about preventing the rate of death from lack of ventilation in public hospitals, a valiant effort no doubt, and most rewardable intention, but it seems the solution hoped for doesn’t always work out due to poor planning , for instance the case with USA (https://www.npr.org/2020/05/07/8517...n-most-without-treating-any-covid-19-patients) this is poor planning and execution, I’m sure had this been in Pakistan it would be very beneficial.

    But The point still is despite all imposed governmental lockdowns, people are still getting sick, so much so that it makes NO difference to public running hospitals, because they are already completely booked.

    If you want a solution, its to instill in the Populace with the hadith of the Prophet ﷺ , Tawaqqul , and reward one gets from having patients when suffering from the symptoms of said PLAGUE/PANDEMIC/EPIDEMIC when their lives are not in danger. As mentioned above, it is wajb for them to seek “MEDICATION,” when Death is certain or highly probable, and IF there is NO medication or Ventilation available, then have patience , hope in Allah to decide what is best if it is death or life, beseeching life (especially when the person in question spent his whole life in ghaflat.)

    Although it’s not exactly relevant to the topic, a point that needs to be made, for “precautionary measure.”

    In case someone misunderstands preferring Tawaqqul over medicine, or preferring sabr over hospitalization when not possible (and even when possible) is Not TO BE CONFLATED with YEARNING DEATH.

    There is a difference.

    Although there are exceptions to the rule (as I had sent but few cared to read )

    Sharh al Sudoor of Imam Suyuti (NOORI Publications) has two chapters on this (self explanatory)

    1. The impermissibility of asking death

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    The footnote of notes that asking for “death,” when inflicted by a dreaded sickness, is a means of attaining hellfire. So as I said, no one is promoting that ones asks to die when he’s sick for corona, because he wants to die a Marty, what he can do is have tawaqqul in Allah to decide what is best, asking for LONG LIFE and CURE from HIM, but also have hope in attaining the rank of a martyr IF he dies, and have hope that his sins are expiated as he perseveres through the pain.

    And for anyone under the impression asking for death is not allowed under any circumstance then:

    2. When it is permissible to ask for death

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    Valuable book worth reading, free digital copy at www.noori.org


    I will mention again, this time from the “ATHAR of IMAM SHAYBANI”

    Our Prophet ﷺ made exclusive DUA for his UMMAH to be given DEATH by “Da’oon”: Plague /Deadly Pandemic, and HE DID NOT MAKE A DUA AGAINTS IT. For if he did we would have known about it in the hadith books.

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  4. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون





    Additionally, under some weird impression, you assumed I considered Corona the virus itself Wahmi, I don’t know where that came from, as you proceeded to define Sabab Wahmi and Aadi.


    I thought I’d share now since It did not cross my mind at the time, but actually I did recall people getting the virus through “possibly” no known contact, and that this isn’t merely an imaginary case as almost three months ago an article (https://www.theguardian.com/global-...irst-indigenous-case-of-coronavirus-in-amazon) confirmed COVID positive individuals in the ingenious population of Brazil . Granted that their might have been some person from china or somewhere who had an and infiltrated the middle of nowhere tribal Amazonians, highly unlikely, and that this “type” of report it’s not as equal in terms of infection rate, so I’d still be responsible according to how you define Sabab Wahmi, I get it.



    In post #48, You changed the frame of my position,

    As I clearly stated "the (as in MY) concern isn't about conclusion, it’s about the immediate effect", where you conveniently changed it to your fitting, because It can go both ways.


    And your response was: This is where you are getting it wrong. The concern is indeed about the conclusion and NOT necessarily the immediate effect. Though it could be otherwise as well..


    Sure, it can, But I am not speaking of both ways. You can prove Islam by proving God first, or by Proving Prophethood first, they’re not going to have the same approach.




    As for my “Fallacy”, It is not a false analogy fallacy I was never comparing the 90-99% burn rate with fatality rate. If anything, it can be seen as a Non sequitur, because I “randomly inserted the comment about Ebola.” I was contrasting the 90-99% (wajib aadatan) immediate effect of the empirically observed phenomenon of pyrolysis, an aadi / tabi’I effect of fire or extreme heat with that of a person touching COVID or any other VIRUS. Pathogens when “touching the naked human body, or even human organs “ DON’T have this 90-99% effect, they CAN activate either immediately or delayed , Due to such unknown frequency factor taking those precautionary measures out of “fear” of acquiring Cororna it is Wahmi / Speculative, as you know speculation can be right or wrong, it just needs more proof.


    For instance, we see fire burn wood, but then we see that a certain piece of wood isn’t burning, we discover its wet, so the water is not letting the fire burn, so we chop the outer layer of the wood until we are left with a dry piece of wood, and then it burn 99%.


    So, in your defense we can say wearing a mask or gloves, is seen to be a similar effect as water on a log, it significantly reduces the spread of pathogen. Again, my comparison was spread of pathogen to spreading of fire. But this will still be Qiyas Ma’al Fariq, why? because unlike wood and fire, even if we remove the mask and gloves (like chipping the wet wood), we still find an inconsistent % of people who get the pathogen let alone the disease, this is in the case of merely touching. As for the case of drinking or direct injection of the pathogen which will be 100% observed acquisition, we still fail to see a 90-99% acquisition rate INCLUDING ASYMPTOMATIC patients, but definitely higher than the prior scenario, so lets even consider it at 80% certainty of correlation, this is contingent upon knowing that someone is a carrier of the pathogen, NOT EVERYONE is to ASSUME he is a carrier, this is WAHM, although to turn his WAHM into certainty he can get tested.




    Talk about Slippery Slope Fallacy , additional to the fact that it is Qiyas Ma’al fariq. With such mentality, don’t even have children, out of fear one’s wife MIGHT die from through maternal mortality. Oh, so now the Husband is responsible for her death? Or was he naïve for consummating the marriage?! (by the way this is a proper analogy to your slippery slope analogy.) Furthermore, what of labor…. very painful…. excruciating during delivery …and “It has been correlated that once pregnant the VAST Majority of women have pain when giving birth, only a minority have painless delivery.”

    but according to your logic the all husbands and particularly (in countries below) are “reprehensibly” responsible for their pain (during labor/delivery) and death. ALAS, had he not impregnated she would never have faced such a thing.

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    Preventative measures here are dealing with nutrition diet and hygiene, same goes for disease, proper nutrition diet and hygiene are the “precautionary measures” that people should actually promote, especially that which is found to increase the immune system.

    And if you “say straw man “, please save me you breathe, you clearly were intending responsible in the reprehensible sense, or the other option would be that you misjudged my posts as denial of the agency factors of responsibility, which I assumed was clear with my repetition of “APRIORI” from there on out.

    Moving along with your analogy, tell me what “Islamic justification does one have for putting a nail on the road, and what is his intention?” very little to a few ie: like how cops spike trip speeding criminals?! Visiting the sick is a Sunnah! Eating with a Leper is a Sunnah! Don’t say one “must,” wear a mask to prevent harm. One CAN if he wants to, to prevent harm, it is not a MUST. Or Does one have Su’ al Dhann and think a person is shaking hands with the intent of killing people? Oh, that can’t be because clearly, he’s just a a Naïve person whose is killing people, without realizing. We should not jump to conclusions, not for my sake, for the what is to come (further proof and dismantling of your arguments), and the unintended consequences of “not my actions,” but “your criticism.”

    I noteworthy point: [somewhat related]

    Are you even aware that, taking medicine in a non-lethal sickness is Optional, and that there is only Ijma’ on taking medicine being WAJIB in the fear of certain death, is this naivete to you?!

    Imam al Haythami from his تحفة المحتاج

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    If cure is optional for non-lethal disease, then Afortiori “precautionary measures” is even more optional when it comes to “possibly acquiring a disease.

    The “Hadith-Corpus” you speak of, including Tibb al Nabawi need to be understood in light of what I quoted.

    Seeking cure from medicine is ALSO proven even more so since the Prophet ﷺ himself did it and commanded it and it is AMONG the matters of Tawaqqul. It’s not an either-or case, as you would like it to be. It is however a case that taking Asbab is among perfection, so as long as you don’t believe not taking it will not cure you, nor should one think that by avoiding taking the means he is MORE MUTAQQI, taking and not taking should have no impact on ones level of Taqwa in Allah.

    Fath al Bari – Imam Hajar al Asqalani

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    Key point is what the Prophet ﷺ (peace be upon him said): If you have patience (with tawaqqul) for you is Paradise, that is better, or if you wish, I will supplicate for you to be cured. She asked to have patience over her illness but asked that her awrah be protected under her epilepsy, for which the Prophet ﷺ prayed for it to be covered.


    The famous Hadith al Uthman ibn Hunaif (particular scan is from Musnad ibn ahmad)

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    Key point is what the Prophet ﷺ (peace be upon him said): If you wish to store your reward for the Hereafter, that is better, or if you wish, I will supplicate for you.

    Dua Is more valuable and powerful than medicine in face of ineffective medicine, and reliance on effective and working medicine is just as valuable and powerful as Dua.

    There are people of Taqwa, and there are People of Fatwa, sadly for you, neither of them supports your claim,

    Additionally, I mentioned in my previous posts, how sickness and covid / or plague is “EXCLUSIVELY” a mercy for the believers an expiation from sin, and then if I am an agent in spreading this “MERCY” why are you disheartened?

    Now if I judge that the person I am in contact with, will have weak iman and blame khalq for the illness and not have Tawaqqul and be impatient and say statements of Kufr , I will not interact or meet the person, or at the least I will wear the mask and gloves to prevent his IMAN from being soiled.

    Your claim is “it is naïve,” and mine is it isn’t granted one has true tawaqqul. What wisdom, am I lacking, when in fact Prophet ﷺ has glad tidings for those who are sick, and it’s a means of mercy. When I was full submission on any outcome of that interacting.

    Such contentions never settle with me well, and are to me weak in face of greater reward.

    I made sure I wasn't being nearsighted and considered the reaction and psychology of everyone involved in my family and the one I visited. As I worse the gloves, when they asked me too.
     
  5. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    In due time brother, I mentioned "if you think that ......so be it ; as in I can't change your impression of my observation), even Jalali Sahib mentioned an account of a Peer who wouldn't let his mureeds kiss his hands from fear (caution as you would like to call it) of infection. Additionally by "Proper Precaution," I am talking about those who "exaggerate" in precautionary measure claiming that to be proper , anything less than that as "insufficient."

    ‏اللهم ألهمني رشدي، وأعذني من شر نفسي
    ‏O Allah! Inspire in me guidance and deliver me from the evils within myself

    I was patient with your response, I request the same , I don't wish to argue for "argument's sake" as you surmise, I will take the time to thoroughly explain my point of view. In the meantime If you are as sincerity is reciprocated I urge you to finish watching all 4 videos "at the least."
     
  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    no one's "imposing" or "foisting" anything on you - that is the simple corollary to your strange statement - and I tried to nudge you to see it from that angle. Maybe you intended to say something else - but the way it's worded, it inevitably leads to the said conclusions*.

    as for jeering - I warned you already that is was a tongue-in-cheek, not intended to offend.

    I rest my case.


    ---
    * if you can show an equivalent statement from any relied-upon scholar, please do - I will retract my contention without ado in sha Allah
     
  7. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member

    @FaqirHaider

    Ego is a dangerous thing brother. In order to prove your point, you generalize wherever you see fit? Not only that you also bring interpretations of ahadith out of their original context too to validate your preconcieved notions.
    Fear Allah.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  8. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    Any interpretation of my statement as beseeching the prolonging of suffering in contracts to the eradication of it is unmerited, and imposing.

    This "apparent," contradiction is foisted on me for a quick jeer. I don't think it requires a detailed reply , but if need be it will be addressed.

    In all cases of struggle we know we must have
    1. Sabr (not to complain as to "why?" or "how could God have..." which in turn changes the Hasanat received from patience to sins"
    2. Taqwa (beseeching Allah's aid) - dua and prayer for help, support, recovery (dua Alone, a sufficient means, as are actions, and majority of time the actions are )
    3. Tawakkul - Believe there is a Divine Wisdom and Plan that is in benefit of the Muslims.

    I did not add "apart from “Prophet Command .....and Prayers.....,” having assumed everyone knows prayer and the these 3 points is implied principle for Muslims in all Matters.

    But I am glad you brought this up because it seem those advocating for “proper precaution,” are the same ones that lack or find “Due, Awraad and Azkar insufficient means to “guarantee” protection (and if you think this is a generalization, than so be it) I will go into this further since brother Sohaib has made a point in relation to this aswell, after thorough reading and responding to his points. إن شاء الله ﷻ

    There has definitely been confusion, so I will dedicate my next post in clarifying my position and pointing out some matters that need to be addressed ; points of contention and agreement.
     
  9. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member

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    Discussed that previously.

    Not All contacts are the same.
    You have to realize that Not every disease is the same. For example:
    You can eat food, shake hands with a hepatitis C patient and even sleep on the same bed.
    What has been observed is certain activities such as sharing needles, blood transfusions containing HCV virus and intimacy/intercourse is correlated with likelihood of being infected.
    So we would discourage those who avoid sitting or eating with an HCV patient because no such correlation (between these activities and infection) has been ever observed.
    You can eat food and shake hands with an HIV/AIDS patient and even sleep on the same bed.
    What has been observed is certain activities such as sharing needles, blood transfusions and intimacy/intercourse is correlated with likelihood of infection.
    We would discourage those who avoid sitting or eating with an HIV/AIDS patient.

    Coming to leprosy:
    https://www.cdc.gov/leprosy/transmission/index.html

    The following is from CDC:

    It is not known exactly how Hansen’s disease spreads between people. Scientists currently think it may happen when a person with Hansen’s disease coughs or sneezes, and a healthy person breathes in the droplets containing the bacteria. Prolonged, close contact with someone with untreated leprosy over many months is needed to catch the disease.

    You cannot get leprosy from a casual contact with a person who has Hansen’s disease like:





      • Shaking hands or hugging
      • Sitting next to each other on the bus
      • Sitting together at a meal
    I hope that would help answer the question you raised.

    Imam Ibn Hajjar Asqalani provides a more in depth perspective on this:

    “What is meant by negating contagion is that nothing can cause infection by itself, refuting what the people of the pre-Islamic era claimed. They believed that the diseases can communicate themselves from one person to another without the Permission of Allaah. So, the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, refuted this idea and ate with the leper to prove that Allaah The Almighty Is The only One Who Can Bring illness and Grant health, and forbade them from thinking in this way to clarify that they are just causes that may have effects. In his prohibition, the Prophet, sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, proves that there are causes but rather they cannot affect by themselves and Allaah The Almighty Is The only One Who, if He Wills, Can Allow them to have an effect or not." (Fatulbari,
    Book of medicine
    Chapter leprosy under the following hadith)

    وَقَالَ عَفَّانُ حَدَّثَنَا سَلِيمُ بْنُ حَيَّانَ، حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ مِينَاءَ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ، يَقُولُ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لاَ عَدْوَى وَلاَ طِيَرَةَ وَلاَ هَامَةَ وَلاَ صَفَرَ، وَفِرَّ مِنَ الْمَجْذُومِ كَمَا تَفِرُّ مِنَ الأَسَدِ ‏"‏‏.‏


    fathulbari.png


    Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    Why do you want to come across a hadith where Prophet says "No fire burns another by its own agency?" You are totally missing the point unfortunately again.

    عن أبي هريرة، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: ” لا يعدي شيء شيئا، لا يعدي شيء شيئا “، ثلاثا، قال: فقام أعرابي، فقال: يا رسول الله، إن النقبة تكون بمشفر البعير، أو بعجبه، فتشتمل الإبل جربا، قال: فسكت ساعة، ثم قال: ” ما أعدى الأول، لا عدوى، ولا صفر، ولا هامة، خلق الله كل نفس، فكتب حياتها وموتها ومصيباتها ورزقها “

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “One thing does not infect another by its own agency,” repeating it three times. So a Bedouin said: “Messenger of Allah! When mange effects a camel it spreads to all the camels around.” The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) paused for a moment and said: “Who caused the first one to be diseased? There is no contagion (‘adwa), nor is there a serpent in the belly (safar), nor is there any vermin calling for revenge (hamah). Allah created every soul, determining its span of life, (time and cause of) its death, its afflictions, and its provisions.

    The repetition and emphasis on the the statement "“One thing does not infect another by its own agency,” is enough proof that created causes have no intrinsic power to bring about effects.

    The final statement "Allah created every soul, determining its span of life, (time and cause of) its death, its afflictions, and its provisions" is concluding remark i.e it is the one and only Creator Allah, who actually brings into existence the causes and effects.


    Actually it is you who is cherry-picking and trying to enforce your interpretation of the hadith in question. Yet at the same time you have the audacity to claim that I am one validating my own bias.

    1) So did the Arabs in the days of ignorance believed that that there are correlating factors of diseases and Prophet (alayhi s-salām) rejected that?

    OR
    2) Did the arabs in the days of ignorance attributed the emergence of effects to created causes?

    If it is the first, then you are wrong for two reasons:
    1)The conclusion of the hadith is a clear giveaway pertaining to what the glorious Prophet (alayhi s-salām) was talking about.
    2)Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqalani disagrees with you and confirms (2) for the people in the days of ignorance.

    If you meant by this statement that the only reason Jahiliya believed that causes have intrinsic power because their belief in correlation then that is an argument from ignorance.
    Because casuality is not something which is observable. What one observes is the the occurance of two events one after another and how frequently these events occur in the same manner (i.e. one after another).
    Your statment implies that since someone believes fire is a correlating event of burning in the hand then that automatically transforms to the belief that fire is the reason burning begins to exist in the hand.And therefore one should not believe that there can be events that are correlated. This statement of yours is pure sophistry and denial of observed reality and logical principles.

    The harm that the scholars have spoken of, completely lies in agreement with what I have mentioned above. And i will discuss that below as well.

    The use of word "responsible" is an equivocation fallacy because it is used to convey a certain meaning in this thread (which we were discussing about) and here it is used to convey a different meaning. Let me expand on what I am trying to say.

    I have briefly tried to elaborate in the picture elaborating the aqeedah that some people believe that Allah has created the initial sets of conditions and the events have the power to affect one another. This is the responsibility which needs to be denied from the creation. And it MUST BE DENIED. In otherwords, those who hold created things to be the sole responsible for resulting in harm or benefit, then this MUST BE DENIED. So the harm here is that the affected is led to believe that it was the "disease" in the infected individual which brought about the disease in him. And that could even happen even if the person believes in Allah yet holds created things of having intrinsic power to bring about results.


    None of this contradicts what i have been talking about here. I am not saying you are responsible or the disease in you is responsible for disease in the non-infected individual.
    That was never the point of this discussion. I still fail to see why you brought it up here.

    Allah is al-Razzaq. He is the one who gives sustenance. Wouldn't you hold a person responsible who is sitting in a room, not striving or working and says "Allah is the one who will provide me sustenance?"

    Subhan Allah. That is Haq. But how is this relevant to the discussion we are having?
    Sickeness is a blessing indeed but is it not in the hadith to ask "Allah to remove sickness" or to ask Allah to protect oneself from it or to take medications?


    First it was confirmation bias and now this. There is enough of a proof/evidence that you indeed are validating your own bias even if it means taking ahadith out of their original context. And even if it means side-tracking me or strawmanning or raise fallacies in attempt to refute. There is nothing to be egoistical about.


    You can disagree by all might as much as you want. We can go on and on in circles. But i hope some of this conversation might be fruitful to someone out there in sha Allah.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  10. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member


    A muslim doesnot come under the sword of his opponent/enemy deliberately (read passively or without putting up a fight) to embrace shahadat. Does an average muslim goes to Jihad believing that his time of death has arrived? How could he even know that?
    He does have high hopes in Allah to give him shahadat.
    The muslims fight to their utmost strengths for the sake of Allah and Islam without fearing death. Their main goal is to establish the deen of Allah , strengthen Islam and remove the the threat of the enemy. And if death ( that is decreed) meets them, they embrace it gracefully becoming shaheed.

    Your example is again a false analogy fallacy. You are comparing apples and oranges. Jihad is a commandment of Allah, and one should not consider for a second regarding his property, wives or children when going for Jihad to face the enemy.

    But that doesn't mean one doesn't take precautionary measures while going to Jihad.
    Such as practising horse riding and maintaining fitness before the battle.
    Such as preparing armour and sharpening the swords.


    The hadith says to stay in the afflicted land if you happen to be there. It does not in any way whatsoever, implies that staying there would defintely mean DEATH. If it did, it would have made sense to say that “Face death”. We all know not all people die living in the area afflicted with plaque. And we don’t know when our time of death is decreed.

    It also does not in any way imply that you must not take the necessary means. This necessary means however should not involve “LEAVING” the afflicted land. That’s it.

    You are trying to interpret hadith in a manner which supports your preconceived notions.


    I have discussed this in detail.
    Let’s give you another example:

    Assume you have observed that from a certain activity, mortality rates of elderly are observed to be 20%. Out of every 100 elderly people, 20 die.
    Are you going to encourage your parents or grandparents to undertake such an activity?

    If you answer is no, you have assumed responsibility.
    If your answer is yes, you are simply naïve.



    Sure.
    This is the ACTUAL WAHM:

    The example below is just to make you understand. Donot take that as a truth:

    1) It has been observed that people staying in contact with COVID19 get infected.
    2) It has been observed that people who did not stay in contact with COVID 19 get infected as well.


    What I am trying to say is, If there was a hypothetical scenario where people developed COVID19 regardless of whether they were in contact with COVID19 patients or NOT, then using masks, sanitizers or practicing social distancing would have been baseless or needless. If such a person would have taken those precautionary measures under the pretense of responsibility, you would have been absolutely right to call him out.


    And this is the main point of contention of this discussion.
    There is a correlating factor that a vast majority of people who establish contact with COVID19 patients, do develop the disease or harbor the virus.
    So your avoidance of precautionary measures despite knowing the correlating factor “makes” you culpable.
    You are not being culpable for creating the disease in the other individual. Allah is the creator of everything. And it is Allah who has specified your actions. But He has also made you responsible for the voluntary choices you make.
    Just like a murderer isn’t culpable for creating death in the other individual by giving a poison (assume mortality rates are similar to that of COVID). Allah is the creator of everything. And Allah has also specified his actions.

    I want you to read slowly and carefully what has been mentioned above again and again.



    Do you really think one could force anyone to believe anything over a public forum? No brother.

    TO be continued. Last post to be written in due time. Please bear with me. Jazak Allah.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  11. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member

    Coming back to the discussion and resuming where I left.
    There are some points that need to be addressed.

    First an issue was raised against symptomless carriers and it was claimed that this is pure conjecture.
    First of all, carriers are those who harbor the pathogen (common to a certain disease) but they do not develop the set of symptoms characteristic to the particular disease.

    There are a number of diseases whose associated organisms have been found in individuals without the development of symptoms. However, they have been correlated with the development of symptoms or presence of an organism with absence of symptoms in other individuals following exposure.

    Some of these include: HIV, Bacillary dysentery, Cholera, Giardiasis, typhoid, schistosomiasis, HCV, tuberculosis, polio.

    Anybody interested could look these up on PUBMED.



    You are still working under the assumption that “correlating factors” for “becoming infected” are based on mere conjecture. This is totally false.

    Although one has to admit, the mortality rates are relatively low when the whole of the population is taken BUT it is still a very large number. Large enough to cluster hospitals (which is already happening in Pakistan. Has happen in Iran. Italy and china were able to develop ICUs, new hospitals and everything but that is not going to happen in developing countries at all.Arguing about that would be a moot

    What that means is a significant number of moderate to severe cases who do require hospitalization due to decreased oxygen saturation wouldn’t be able to receive oxygen for their loved ones. If anybody has seen a moderate-severe corona patient, he would see what I am talking about. Even with high pressure oxygen and intubation they are literally gasping for air.
    The large number of recoveries that we do see happening in developed countries is that their facilities are not limited. They can afford to build hospitals and provide ventilators.
    If it was Pakistan, the number of recovering patients would be far low. This is true because recovery is correlated with provision of the necessary/supportive management to such patients.
    Our bodies functions are normally (necessarily) correlated with oxygen. And oxygen levels are the first to go down in a significant number of COVID19 patients with moderate –severe disease (pneumonia and/or ARDS). This affects both the elderly and the non-elderly patients.
    What that means is we have to show responsibility by taking the precautions. It is time to stop acting Naïve.
    Majority of People in Pakistan cannot afford 10 lac (6000 dollars) stay in private hospitals for 7 days.
    And developing countries CANNOT afford lockdowns as well for long periods.


    I don’t gain anything from telling you this information. I don’t have the time to misrepresent data and to be honest a forum would be a last resort for validating my confirmation bias.

    Had you made any visit to ICUs and emergency wards, you would have realized what I am talking about.
    This is not something “unpredictable”. The correlating factors are known, and more information is being released.
    Unpredictability would have been IF all people regardless of being in contact with COVID-19 patients would have become infected. In that case, there should have been no calls for social distancing, masks, washing hands or sanitization.


    There are a number of factors one has to take into account.
    1) How long were they infected?
    2) Were they still infected?
    3) Were they showing symptoms?
    4) Did you do your tests?
    5)Your immune status.

    Look I am not advocating that being in the vicinity of COVID19 patients by default means you will develop COVID19. What I am against is your naivety and your mindset. That is the problem.



    How does the fact that you “did not” get infected following exposure/contact with COVID19 undermines the fact “that majority of people interacting with COVID19” do develop the disease?
    You are “ONE” individual. You are not the majority here.



    Are you serious? Where did I say asymptomatic equates equates being diseased? IF on culture, COVID 19 organisms are SEEN, and you do not have and do not develop COVID19 Symptoms, AND there is history of prior contact with COVID19 patients, you need to self-isolate (do quarantine), avoid interaction and repeat swabs and culture after a week or two until they are “NEGATIVE” for COVID19. This is the standard protocol.

    What’s the use you may ask?

    First the incubation period of the disease is 7-14 days, and after that you may develop symptoms. Even if you do not, there is growing evidence (in terms of COVID19. I am NOT talking about other diseases I have mentioned above. You can check them up on PUBMED), that you may be an asymptomatic carrier correlated with increased incidence of COVID19 in non-infected individuals upon exposure/contact.



    What i should say here is to read what has been written above with an open mind and try to understand what I am talking about.




    This should put things in perspective:

    CDC estimates* that, from October 1, 2019, through April 4, 2020, there have been:
    24000-62000 deaths in US alone. That’s in 7 months. (FLU)

    Source: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm

    """Let’s see deaths from COVID 19 in USA in from 4th march to 16 June. Number of deaths:
    118000 in 102 days in 3 months.

    The World Health Organization estimates that worldwide, annual influenza epidemics result in about 3-5 million cases of severe illness and about 250,000 to 500,000 deaths.

    Source: https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/219557-overview#a6

    Confirmed cases of corona virus are 7.69 million, confirmed deaths are 428,000. And total number of recovered cases is unknown. In


    I wouldn’t question that. That is known as associated morbidities.
    But Pakistan as a developing country are underreporting the deaths because we do not and cannot perform wide-spread testing, UNLIKE America or Italy, or Spain , or France.
    So this claim of “labeling patients as COVID19” is a stretch when in used in relation to Pakistan.


    Straw-man argument.
    I want you to go back and read what I wrote. Let me quote it here:

    A person who gets in contact with a diseased COVID-19 is correlated with development of symptoms about 7-14 days later. That is observed in a vast vast majority of cases.

    Does what I wrote above equals “ALL”?
    Where did I deny the minority? Or are you postulating or insinuating that since you didn’t develop Corona upon contact with COVID19 patients then it sort of undermines the correlation that “majority of people develop COVID19 following contact with COVID19 patients?”
    You are beating a straw-man that you set up yourself.


    This is again missing the point. I have addressed the main gist above. Try reading with an open mind.

    Let me ask you a better question:

    What actually prevents you from taking precautionary measures in scenario that you were recently involved in, such as using masks?


    Do you deny that the incubation period of disease 10-14 days? What that means is such individuals harbor the virus but do not develop symptoms.
    Or do you deny that COVID19 infected individuals (without harbouring the virus) could be the correlating factors for the development of COVID 19 (either in the form of virus or symptoms)?

    No one made a comment about rapid growth of the disease. You continue to miss the point. I would recommend going back and reading what has been actually said instead of assuming what has not been said.




    Fair enough.


    Don’t you think its irrelevant to the discussion at hand? Nowhere did I claim that it has been associated 90-99% fatalities BUT:
    the question is,
    is there any way you could show some degree of responsibility?
    That is the question, brother.


    Is that the only reason one closes the door if a serial killer comes to your house? Muslims do not close door because they think they could evade the time of death.
    But that doesn’t mean Muslims don’t act responsibly. They do adopt precautionary measures. They are not fatalists.



    Please don't assume your addressee’s position. It is a bad habit.

    Give these a read:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/15/world/asia/pakistan-coronavirus-hospitals.html

    https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pa...hospitals-near-collapse-under-strain-covid-19

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/f...oronavirus-cases-explode-200612084123797.html

    The only hospitals that are not full are private ones. And they are charging 6000 dollars for 7 days (10 lac PKR).


     
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    astounding ...

    with that reasoning, I guess that the prayers and azkaar going on all around the world for this pandemic to end and for the recoveries of those affected - well they must be prayers against the prayer of the Prophet (peace be upon him)?

    Instead, it would make more sense to pray for the pandemic to be prolonged and beg for maximum destruction of life and business.

    And all the books of awraad written for protection and cure from diseases - should be, what ... burnt? aren't they too trying to "prevent shahada and mercy and expiation of sins"?

    ------

    just a tongue in cheek reply ... think for yourself, where are we going with this next?
     
  13. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member

    @FaqirHaider
    Please read previous post #57


    Your break down of the disease is meaningless. Since you have 0 idea pertaining to medical science. You are only wild-guessing by asking shaykh google and trying to act smart when you are not.

    Do you even understand the meaning of asymptomatic? It is not the poison that is asymptomatic, it is the patient in question. And a disease is not said to be asymptomatic, it is the patient on which the symptoms appear. A person not able to tell this simple A, B, C is going to teach us the “stark” difference between "symptomlessness of a poisionous element and a disease"?

    Are you kidding me?



    The blunders you made above are enough to dispel you from this conversation. There are more blunders to come.


    The example i have given is indeed a perfect analogy. It is Not an analogy drawn between COVID19 and Diabetes. You are straw-manning me. Go back and read again.
    It was the analogy drawn to show you that the example of diabetes is SABAB WAHMI but that doesnot entail removal of responsibility.

    Does the parents having diabetes normally necessitates (sabab aadi) diabetes in children?
    Does the poor glycemic index normally necessitates (sabab aadi) gangrene of toes?
    Does the poor glycemic index normally necessitates (sabab aadi) silent heart attacks?

    Let’s look at the example I gave previously:

    A diabetic person despite being warned by doctors to adopt a healthy lifestyle complete ignores his advise and doesnot mend his ways. The doctor has even told him that if he doesnot mend his ways, studies have shown that diabetics without proper glycemic control end up getting their toes amputated (10%), foot amputation (8%) and silent heart attacks (13%).
    The man doesnot mend his ways.3 months later, his toes are amputated. 6 months later his whole foot is amputated. After a year he dies from what they call a "Silent" heart attack.

    Is this person not responsible for not taking care of his health? Or is he going to present excuse of predestination for his inability of not taking the right actions? Despite being told by the doctor that he should mend his ways? Or is he going to say that this was Sabab Wahmi, so he is not responsible?is amputated. After a year he dies from what they call a "Silent" heart attack.


    This is known as “axing your foot”. So non-comunicable diseases are “Sabab Aadi” (please have a look at the statistics shown in the example above) and communicable diseases (mortality rate of 20% in COVID elderly patients) is "Sabab Wahmi".

    Actually, you do not even know the meaning of wahmi or aadi. You are simply parroting what you might have overheard from the scholars but never bothered to understand or reflect about.


    So here you admit that a diabetic is responsible for his actions which are correlated with toes amputation (10%), foot amputation (8%) and silent heart attacks (13%).

    But when it comes to “COVID19” the person is not responsible.
    This is nothing but a categorical denial of “correlating event” in case of infections.

    Why you may ask? Using your methodology of using "mortality" rates:
    (See below)

    """Diabetes was the seventh leading cause of death in the United States in 2017 based on the 83,564 death certificates in which diabetes was listed as the underlying cause of death.
    The number of deaths is 83564 in 365 days.
    But diabetes is sabab adi according to him."""

    """Let’s see deaths from COVID 19 in USA in from 4th march to 16 June. Number of deaths:
    118000 in 102 days. That’s not even a whole year.
    But COVID19 is sabab wahmi according to him."""



    Please have a look at the statistics pertaining to COVID 19 and diabetes.
    You have no idea what this conversation is about. Your logical inconsistency shows you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.


    I will be addressing the rest of your other posts later. Have to go.
    It is a request to Not reply UNTIL i have finished responding to all of your posts.

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  14. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member

    @FaqirHaider


    The hadith in question DOESNOT deny a correlation. It affirms a correlation "Who infected the first?"

    The hadith is denying "that created causes have intrinsic power" and it is only Allah who creates and everything happens by His Will. Another hadith points to this very fact:


    عن أبي هريرة، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: ” لا يعدي شيء شيئا، لا يعدي شيء شيئا “، ثلاثا، قال: فقام أعرابي، فقال: يا رسول الله، إن النقبة تكون بمشفر البعير، أو بعجبه، فتشتمل الإبل جربا، قال: فسكت ساعة، ثم قال: ” ما أعدى الأول، لا عدوى، ولا صفر، ولا هامة، خلق الله كل نفس، فكتب حياتها وموتها ومصيباتها ورزقها “


    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “One thing does not infect another by its own agency,” repeating it three times. So a Bedouin said: “Messenger of Allah! When mange effects a camel it spreads to all the camels around.” The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) paused for a moment and said: “Who caused the first one to be diseased? There is no contagion (‘adwa), nor is there a serpent in the belly (safar), nor is there any vermin calling for revenge (hamah). Allah created every soul, determining its span of life, (time and cause of) its death, its afflictions, and its provisions.


    However, that does not entail denial of correlating factors (an observed phenomena) OR that a person should NOT adopt precautionary measures. The hadith Corpus is full of "precautionary measures."

    عن أبي هربرة، أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: لا عدوى، ولا هام، ولا صفر، ولا يحل الممرض على المصح، وليحلل المصح حيث شاء، قال: ولما ذلك، يا رسول الله؟ قال: إنه أذى

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “There is no contagion (‘adwa), nor is there any vermin calling for revenge (hamah), nor is there a serpent in the belly (safar). The owner of sick livestock, however, must not stop at the same place as the owner of healthy livestock, but the owner of healthy livestock may stop wherever he wishes.” They said, “Messenger of Allah, Why is that?” The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “(Because) it is harmful.”


    Anas bin Malik narrated that a man said:

    "O Messenger of Allah! Shall I tie it and rely(upon Allah), or leave it loose and rely(upon Allah)?" He said: "Tie it and rely(upon Allah)."


    Your ability to cherry pick and provide an interpretation that validates your preconcieved notions is quite obvious here. And it will become more obvious below:





    Allah has placed responsibility for the voluntary actions you make. How does that make you a Jabari?
    This is one of most ignorant arguments I have ever heard in my life.

    Aren't you responsible for the voluntary choices you make in your life despite believing that everything happens in accordance with the decree of Allah?


    Still missing the point.
    How did you jump from 3% of mortality to No harm at all?
    Moreover, when did this issue ever pertained to ONLY "Mortality"? This approach of yours would backfire and i would demonstrate that below.

    The discussion was always around acknowledging the correlation of events which Allah has decreed followed by showing a degree of responsibility something which is something you are not willing to accept.

    1)Aren't a great number of patients getting hospitalized when infected with COVID19?
    2)Don't they require hospitalization and oxygen supplementation?
    3)Isn't the correlation between contact with COVID19 patients and development of symptoms something that is observed?
    4) Hasn't this been seen that failure to adopt precautionary measures by the layman was correlated with mounting hospital overburden, lack of beds and facilities in developed countries like italy and developing countries like Iran with patients dying outside the hospitals?




    How does the fact that being infected with COVID19,relates to 20-30% percent urgent hospitalization and case fatality rate is 20% in elderly EQUALS to CONJECTURE?

    Which part of this is conjecture according to you?

    1) Increased burden on the hospitals and inability to admit the patients who are serious.
    2) Financial burdens. Costs of private hospitals are beyond the reach of the common man.
    3) Patients unable to receive the urgent hospital care that they require.
    4)What that would correlate with is increased number of mortalities due to inavailability of necessary care available to patients suffering from moderate disease (who usually recover with oxygen supplementation).

    Which part of this is conjecture according to you?




    This is a side-track.


    The question was, if this Poison is correlated with 3% mortality or 8% mortality, "Knowing" that will you drink it up? AND if it does lead to your death, are you going to be held responsible or not?
    The question that you need to answer is "Why would you drink it in the first place?"




    Now this is a false analogy fallacy. You are comparing apple and oranges.

    Although the chances of dying from a car accident is 1 out of 103. That equals to .97%

    The case fatality rate of eldery COVID19 patients extends to about 20%. That means 20 people out of 100.




    I have no inner agenda to skew data in my favour. This is what happens when you speak about things without a qualification. This is unfortunately the case with many people of Pakistan.
    They see Jewish conspiracy in many things. And they also like to pose themselves as experts of things which they have not heard of ever before.



    This is a red-herring and an irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    First lets get down to the numbers:

    The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reported an estimated 36,120 people died in motor vehicle traffic crashes last year, down 1.2% from 36,560 in 2018, even as travel rose 0.9% to 3.23 trillion miles.

    The number of deaths from COVID in USA Alone are 117000 since 22nd March.


    The red-herring here is:
    The original discussion pertained to "Your Responsibility". You have shifted the conversation to "mortality" when it is indeed irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    BTW who you that there is no responsibility when accidents happen?

    1) If a person is alcohalic and is driving a car, he poses a risk of harm, injury and death to others.
    2) He is a rash driver.
    3) Does not abide traffic rules.
    4) Listening to music.
    5) Headphones.
    6) Talking on the phone.
    Isn't he responsible in the cases listed above?



    This is the ignorance that i am talking about. Let me ask you "Have you bothered to read and research about this matter in detail?"
    Your example again is a false analogy fallcy:
    In the days of Jahiliya people attributed efficacy to created causes. They believed in a number of superstitions.



    This is again a misapplication of the ahadith. This is what actual misconstruing is.
    The hadith here is NOT denying "precautionary efforts" in and of themselves.
    I could bring you sources from multiple ahadith where we are advised to take precautionary measures, all the while believing that everything is from Allah. I have provided some of them above.

    The hadith here is affirming that "their precautionary measures" are unaccounted or disregarded or unnecessary when it comes to the month of Safar. They are simply doing something which is not needed per se.

    This hadith is not an explicit denial of taking precautionary measures per se. It is a denial of their measures taken with respect to their superstitious belief of Safar.




    I would advise you to read about this thoroughly before you attempt to undermine the "observed" phenomena pertaining to COVID 19.
    This is precisely what i was talking about previously when a brother tried to negate the correlating factors "observed".
    Your attempt at putting together 1) The correlating factors pertaining to COVID19 AND 2)what arabs during the jahilliya believed pertaining to the month of Safar
    is not only a false analogy fallacy, it shows your ignorance of medical science. And that's completely okay.
    What's not okay is that you seem to assume that you have somehow got it right without conducting a thorough research. And that's plain wrong.

    Remember I also talked about how people were saying Corona is fraud. With all due respect, Shaykh Jalali is wrong when he questioned the "death" and even "existence" of the Corona Virus.
    You also seem to implying that what the Arabs believed pertaining to the month of Safar is somewhat similar to that of corona.



    I fail to see how the teaching of Shariah "CONTRADICT" with what we know pertaining to COVID19.
    In fact what the shariah has taught us, is precisely the line of modality which is recommended in case of Pandemics by the scientists of today.
    It is indeed a miracle and a proof that Allah has granted our noble Prophet (alayhi s-salām) immense knowledge of unseen.

    What makes you think, commanding the sick to stay where they are and commanding the healthy to NOT enter the "pandemic stricken area" is NOT IHTIYAT?
    That’s your hidden assumption being exposed right there



    Now that's rather superficial knowledge of Aqeedah.
    The claim of “facing death and not flee from it” is not a belief of a muslim.
    Why?
    1) One does not normally know the time of his death so by definition he cannot face death because that assumes one knows the time of his death and that is not normally possible.
    2) One cannot flee from the time of his death because what is decreed is bound to happen.

    So your claim is moot.
    Moreover, how does practising ihtiyat/caution is equivalent to running away from death?
    Where did you pull that out from?
    If a person defends himself in a war, by equipping himself with weapons or shield, is he said to be running away from death?
    If a person wears a seat belt or a helmet, is he said to be running away from death?

    Is running away from a murderer who is advancing towards you with a knife akin to going against the destiny or akin to Not facing death or akin to renegade of war?

    And if you respond "it is not".
    Then why is it in case of plaque?
    And if you say it is. Then that's
    Special Pleading fallacy.

    The True understanding
    is that if a person were to run away thinking (deluding himself) he is "delaying" his death from a murderer or a plaque or any disaster, then he is indeed a renegade of war.



    1)Again the shariah commands to stay where you are if a plaque breaks out in your area.
    2) In other words to not leave the area one lives in.
    3) How does that equate to "negating" the precautionary measures while remaining in your area?
    4) How did you jump from (1) (2) TO 3?


    The prophet commanded to stay where you are if a plaque broke in your area and people outside of those areas should not enter that place. That is precisely what we believe.
    This proves the possibility of correlating factors between non-infected and infected individuals and also agrees with the observed reality.




    Speaking without knowledge is a bad habit:


    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/hiv-and-aids/causes

    https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dsepd/ss1978/lesson1/section10.html


    If you want research articles, I would be more than willing to provide them to you. None of that is a conjecture.

     
  15. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    brothers, please use the "quotes" feature or "reply" feature - or at least demarcate quotes from other posters using underscores/dashes/parentheses etc. - it's too tedious to read while trying decipher who's saying what
     
    SaadSohail likes this.
  16. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    Admin (please delete last post, images did not load properly)

    Your responsibility comes by knowing the fact that it has been observed that people establishing contact with COVID19 develop symptoms a week or two later and they become the correlating factor for the development of disease in non-infected individuals. You are responsible because you know that not adopting precautionary measures is correlated with increased incidence of development of COVID19 infections.

    Thais observation is "Speculation", there is yet to be a case study where this is actually tested and recorded. If the basis of your argument is due to me not adopting precautionary measures, then clearly the Prophet (Peace be Upon him), Sayyidatna Aisha , Sayyiduna Umar, and a group of Sahaba (May Allah be pleased with them all) are all responsible if anything were to happen because they ecouraged "eating with a leaper, (saliva carries the virus)," and enjoining his company over stigmatizing and marginalizing them. You have failed to address the actions of the Prophet and Sahaba and Salaf on this matter (from Umdat al Qari) and also I'll add more :

    IMG_3725.jpg
    IMG_3726.jpg IMG_3727.jpg IMG_3728.jpg

    Who gave the first one "the DISEASE!", not the pathogen, not the virus, not the bacteria, the DISEASE!, because this is a matter of "chance" for a lack of better words, [a matter of QADR], why should I be "directly" responsible,

    The question of "who" gave the disease is clear. It is Allah. I fail to see how the fact "that it is Allah who gives the disease" evades you of the responsibility.

    This is indeed a strange inference of yours.

    Allah has also decreed the actions of the slaves and it is He who created the actions of the slaves. So would you then ask the question "Why should I be responsible?"


    You seem to keep forgetting I don't consider disease contagious, I consider pathogens contagious, hence I maybe responsible for spreading pathogens but I am not responsible for the disease, because that is not in my hands (pun not intended).

    What you are failing at is to understand the context of the ahadith:

    عن أبي هريرة، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: ” لا يعدي شيء شيئا، لا يعدي شيء شيئا “، ثلاثا، قال: فقام أعرابي، فقال: يا رسول الله، إن النقبة تكون بمشفر البعير، أو بعجبه، فتشتمل الإبل جربا، قال: فسكت ساعة، ثم قال: ” ما أعدى الأول، لا عدوى، ولا صفر، ولا هامة، خلق الله كل نفس، فكتب حياتها وموتها ومصيباتها ورزقها “

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “One thing does not infect another by its own agency,” repeating it three times. So a Bedouin said: “Messenger of Allah! When mange effects a camel it spreads to all the camels around.” The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) paused for a moment and said: “Who caused the first one to be diseased? There is no contagion (‘adwa), nor is there a serpent in the belly (safar), nor is there any vermin calling for revenge (hamah). Allah created every soul, determining its span of life, (time and cause of) its death, its afflictions, and its provisions.



    I have not come across a hadith where the Prophet () says, no fire burns another by its own agency, or no water wets another by its own agency, because these are all understood to aadi!, only in relation to "CORRELATION," does the prophet make this differene?! Why??? And then He clarifies that the Cause is ? and then proceeds to sequentially list "jahiliyya" notions that were based on correlation, and reject them.
    IMG_2799.jpg


    عن أبي هربرة، أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: لا عدوى، ولا هام، ولا صفر، ولا يحل الممرض على المصح، وليحلل المصح حيث شاء، قال: ولما ذلك، يا رسول الله؟ قال: إنه أذى
    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “There is no contagion (‘adwa), nor is there any vermin calling for revenge (hamah), nor is there a serpent in the belly (safar). The owner of sick livestock, however, must not stop at the same place as the owner of healthy livestock, but the owner of healthy livestock may stop wherever he wishes.” They said, “Messenger of Allah, Why is that?” The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, “(Because) it is harmful.”


    Brother it Is not me who needs to understand context, it is easy to apply confirmation bias and say the "harm" intended by the Prophet here is the "harm resulting from getting infected and suffering the pains of that disease," but this isn't the case. The reality is that he said it is Harmful because, a sick person stays at the area of a healthy person, and the healthy gets sick, if he is of weak iman he will blame and HOLD RESPONSIBLE the sick person, and among other "sayings of people" : "stay away brother you will get me sick or I don't want to catch your sickness.

    Sharh al Zarqani (http://hadithportal.com/index.php?show=hadith&h_id=1726&uid=0&sharh=8000&book=30&bab_id=554)
    sharh zarqani.png


    From (كتاب: الاستذكار لمذاهب علماء الأمصار فيما تضمنه الموطأ من معاني الرأي والآثار, باب الطيرة والعدوى)

    وأما قوله إنه أذى فقال أبو عبيد معنى الأذى عندي المأثم وروى بن وهب عن بن لهيعة عن أبي الزبير عن جابر قال يكره أن يدخل المريض على الصحيح وليس به إلا قول الناس‏.‏




    عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال: «إذا سمعتم بالطاعون بأرض فلا تدخلوها، وإذا وقع بأرض وأنتم بها فلا تخرجوا منها»
    The Prophet (ﷺ) said, “If you hear of an outbreak of plague in a land, do not enter it; but if the plague breaks out in a place while you are in it, do not leave that place.”


    For the reasons I mentioned above. To not "jump to conclusions, and blame makhluq for the affliction."

    Do you think If I wasn't there the disease that was destined to get to him would not get there?
    Ofcourse not. Everything would happen according to the decree of Allah. However, Allah has held us accountable for the voluntary choices we make in our life time. You keep forgetting the latter part.

    No dear brother, I am just making the passing a virus in not a voluntary action.


    One a Side Note, we should understand sickness is a favor and blessing for the Believer, and Plague (and by extension is a mercy and means for martyrdom for the believer) so much so That Prophet prayed that his ummah be blessed with this means of death (martyrdom).

    عَنْ أُمِّ الْعَلَاءِ قَالَتْ عَادَنِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَأَنَا مَرِيضَةٌ فَقَالَ أَبْشِرِي يَا أُمَّ الْعَلَاءِ فَإِنَّ مَرَضَ الْمُسْلِمِ يُذْهِبُ اللَّهُ بِهِ خَطَايَاهُ كَمَا تُذْهِبُ النَّارُ خَبَثَ الذَّهَبِ وَالْفِضَّةِ

    3092 سنن أبي داود كتاب الجنائز باب عيادة النساء

    Umm al-Ala reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, visited me when I was sick, and he said, “Be cheerful, O mother of al-Ala. When a Muslim is sick, Allah takes away his sins just as fire takes away impurities in gold and silver.”


    IMG_2827.jpg
    IMG_2828.jpg
    IMG_3724.jpg IMG_3723.jpg

    So just remember (outside) the Prophetic command of staying in your vicinity, and not entering a Ill Stricken LAND , any precautionary measures taken are in means to prevent "shahada, and an mercy and expiation from sins, which the Prophet made dua for."

    It maybe your profession is playing a conflict of interest in seeing this situation with its full implications.
    When it comes to matters that are not in relation to (epidemic/pandemics), one is to take precautionary measures and (this is obvious for communicable diseases and sabab aadi scenarios) but here the only "command," that is given is to remain in ones place and not go to a land that isn't infected, vice versa. It is not for the reason of spreading or preventing illness, it is to safeguard the iman of understanding of people.

    Yes this ^ point can be argued hence why we are having this discussion, but this is the majority opinion, can it change? possibly, should it ? I would argue no.

    But again I would side "with caution," around people who will be prone to misunderstanding Qadr , especially after an emotionally sensitive "eye witnessing or observation/experience."
     
  17. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    I am,however, trying to drill another point home. And i will address that below.

    Sabab Wahmi - this is speculative prone to chance no certainty. "disease is not the immediate/direct result of a person getting the disease," this is my argument.

    First there is no chance. Everything happens by the will of Allah.

    No need to repeat what is understood of chance, Alhamdulillah we are all know everything is from the will of Allah, . Ironically your arguments prior were basically built on this point, simply replace "statistical probability" with the word chance ,you have a 10% chance of getting your toes amputated, 8% foot amputation, 13% chance of heart attack.


    Adi is when a certain thing has been observed to be the same way that it becomes a norm. That doesn't mean it is rationally necessary in the mind's eye. It could still be otherwise according to the intellect.

    Yes it's intellectually possible for fire to have cooling effect, but clearly we don't see that everyday.

    Wahmi is when a certain thing has been observed to be in a number of ways which doesn't make it predictable.


    Yes as is the case with this virus and many in the past, its easy to apply confirmation bias, but look at WHO statistics and reports from day 1 until now you will see change in approach and stats (unpredictable).

    Corona is not at all wahmi. Your argument rejects observed reality. A person who gets in contact with a diseased COVID-19 is correlated with development of symptoms about 7-14 days later. That is observed in a vast vast majority of cases.

    Unless my own reality is a delusion, I just mentioned how I came in contact with COVID-19 victims and I have not developed nor acquired COVID-19, and to make the claim this is an observed "reality," is undermining the vast majority of people who don't have COVID-19 after interacting. I don't want to beat a dead bush, but being asymptomatic in my book does not mean one has the "contracted the disease," one only contracts the disease after the 7-14 period from point of "infection." If you are going to say this is rejected on the basis of anecdotal evidence, then this is just being picky, because this is in rejection of the Billions of "non" carriers who have interacted with diseased and carrier patient.

    COVID is not so different from any other Influenza, millions of people yearly are infected , and 300k died last year due to it, currently COVID as taken 450k death , lets not forget how many of these death were reported "COVID death," but the victims clearly had a plethora of other health complications, and the death was not solely due to COVID. The only reason why there is fear is because there is no vaccine.

    TO highlight infected or carries and disregard the rest who came in contact is a case of myopia. I acknowledge the 8M recorded cases, 3.4M(active), 4.5M(closed). Of the Closed 4.5M (90%) recovered 10% died, of the Active 3.4M (98% are Mild, 2% severe). And the more cases are recorded the bigger the recovery - death gap becomes, showing its not as "dangerous as thought to be." I also acknowledge the 6.8 Billion who have not been affected by this disease, if you argue they are asymptomatic, how many? lets say 8M more, this is is only in my favor, because the more "infected," the bigger the death gap becomes, showing that the "fatality or mortality rate is prone to deflation."

    Where is the Wahm/speculation in all this?

    "COVID" is not a case where ALLAH has will a 90-99% fatality."


    How does that make it Wahmi Sabab?
    Are you denying the fact that people infected with COVID19 are dying? If no. Then where is the wahm? Covid19 patients dying is an observed reality.


    It is absolutely wahmi is in acquisition, the whole "asymptomatic" concept is based on wahm, you are "speculating" people are asymptomatic, as to explain the "rapid growth and spread of the disease." There is no way to statistically put a number on this category of people, but people are taking it for granted and assuming that this is the case "in guise" of itihat.

    I don't deny correlation "once" the disease has manifest and the person is indeed infected with corona, What I am denying is the assumption and treatment of infected COVID-19 patients as contagion at the rate of 90-99% , and more so the anxiety of it being treated like it will be 90-99% fatality.

    Lets not hide the elephant in the room, the only reason people are closing doors is because they thing they will die or at the least get infected, and actual statistics go from one ear out the other, especially when the mantra of "Covid patients are dying and hospitals are full!" is recited in response to an objector. Are you denying the observed reality of the rest of 6.8 Billion inhabitants of earth are not afflicted with corona?

    We have never treated other viruses and influenza like this one, when this has only currently 10-20% higher deaths, does that justify a complete radical shift in protocol than the seasonal flu?

    Where is the wahm in claiming that COVID19 is correlated with 5% mortality rates?
    And in some countries to even 8%. When did we ever claim that COVID19 is correlated with 100% mortality?
    BUT IT IS AN OBSERVED FACT that 2-8 people out of 100 Are dying FROM CORONA.

    - the argument was never on the mortality rate. No one is claiming 100%, but they sure are treating it as such, and the Orwellian doublespeak around this is what irks me.

    It is an observed fact that hospital beds are totally FULL.

    -
    again this is a myopic approach, it maybe an observed fact that hospital "X" is full but I assure you other hospitals are not running in 100% max capacity.

    Secondly has shariah mandated us to ONLY adopt the means when there is a correlation of 99%-100% fatality?
    Of course not, take all the means, it is an option among many options. But you seems to forget Islam also says to accept Fatality (at 50-100%) by encouraging Jihad, and the Hadith of staying in afflicted land and facing death. Why eclipse these matters? It is one thing to ask for long life and health, but love of dunya should not delude us from destiny and faith.
    Has shariah forbidden or prevented us to adopt the means i.e not doing a certain action which is correlated with 5% mortality?
    Not necessarily, except that you are only burdening yourself with taking precaution over such a statistically low number,
    What about adopting means with the intention of protecting others or preventing harm?
    By all means go ahead, as long as you those prevention don't contradict or impeach on established rules and regulations of the deen.
    What about adopting the means with the intention that hospital burden could be reduced?
    Allah will reward you for your good intention (God willing).

    The total number of deaths from COVID19 sits around 423K.

    You should not ignore the fact that 20% of cases of COVID19 require hospitalization. With limited number of hospital beds and ventilators, it is a need of the hour to adopt precautionary measures so that the burden on the hospital remains minimal.
    No hospital is solely built for corona patients. It includes other patients (trauma and other disease, preganancies and what not). All the hospitals today in Pakistan are full and those patients are literally begging doctors to admit them and doctors cannot do anything.


    I acknowledge all of this, except the begging part as I have not seen it myself , but I take your word for it.

    First the number of deaths occuring from Corona is a fact. The respected Shaykh in the video is even denying that there have been deaths. I am truly depressed to hear that.

    The video is dated to the beginning of the epidemic, but he clearly does not deny death from the disease, maybe you need to finish the second video.

    So lets state the facts again:
    1) Corona is a reality.
    2) People of all kinds of ages are dying.
    3) the mortality rates varies from <1-8% and to even 13% in elderly.
    4) Putting on masks, washing hands and avoiding gatherings is correlated with minimal to no development of infection.
    5)People with history of travel were correlated with Increased risk and development of infection.
    6)An elderly age group is correlated with severe forms of ARDS and increased mortality around 13%.
    7) People with history of contact with COVID19 patients were correlated with development of symptoms a week to 2 weeks later in the vast majority of cases.

    I had not stated anything against these statistics (which are prone to change , they are dynamic in nature as more records are reported)

    Do you know what a Wahm is, in this case?

    This is the ACTUAL WAHM:

    The example below is just to make you understand. Donot take that as a truth:

    1) It has been observed that people staying in contact with COVID19 get infected.
    2) It has been observed that people who did not stay in contact with COVID 19 get infected as well.

    This is ODD please reconcile for me points (1,4,7) from your facts list with these two points from you Actual WAHM list. If you will argue that staying in contact is different "history of contact," this would be silly to say at the least.


    IN THIS IMAGINARY CASE: You are not to be held responsible at ALL for not adopting the precautionary means. Because regardless of adopting precautionary means, the infection rates have been observed to remain equal in both (1) and (2). That is the actual SABAB WAHMI.

    As mentioned it does not matter if one gets infected or not, my whole argument isn't in rejection of correlation in agency in pathogenic spreading, it is in rejection of responsibility once the pathogen enters the other persons body, because I AM not responsible on what his destiny is regarding the disease , because it isn't from my own agency that I am spreading anything, Allah has already chosen and written who will be the recipient of the pathogen through me.

    You also need to remember that 5% although on its own seems like a small number it isn't. 5% of the whole country's population makes it a very very large number indeed.

    It is a very large number but statistically is is still small, I don' wish to undermine the value of those infected, Hasha!, but holistically speaking it is "small." Imagine living your life, where people consistently bombard you with the negative side effects or statics (<20%) about something. It is useful as a warning, but everyone has a choice and should not be enforced.
     
  18. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون


    Firstly Dear brother please do watch all 4 aforementioned videos , I can't stress this enough.

    Also the issue is not about correlation, the Jahiliyya Arabs could even see this, and the whole Adwa Hadith is in response to the "behavior, understanding, and reaction to this "correlation,"


    You're whole argument is to construe denial of responsibility around contagion as something of a Jabari stance, and this is a stretch.

    1) Let's say there is an element which is correlated with 3% mortality rate and in some countries around 8% of mortality. That means 3 individuals out of 100 or 8 out of every 100.
    Are you going to ingest this element, knowing that you might die from this, under the excuse that this is the Qadr of Allah and that you are not responsible?


    Yes I might digest it because its a low 3% change of dying, there is no harm in someone doing something at 3%. Qadr is never an excuse its the justification, this is exactly the type of argument that is founded upon conjecture and happenstance, now my opinion will change when you I am asked to consume or be expose to that element on a daily bases over time, clearly the more I drink the percentage of element it will increase, increasing the percentage making it from a low to high probability. (Again this is concrete , quantifiable amount which can be measured)

    In the USA you have 1 in 103 chance of dying form a car accident, 1 in 114 chance of dying from falling, it is exactly this "excuse of Qadr" I am using to justify my driving and my walking (up and down the stairs).

    Its easy to skew statistics in any favor, in my state that actual statistic is 1/16,000 with fatality being 1/7000 which results in around 500 deaths yearly. Additionally its a statistical fact we have more accidents on highways than back roads, yet you find most people still opt for the most efficient and fastest way to and fro work.


    2)Parking a car at a specific junction on the road has been correlated with (about 5%) each month. Its all over the news and they have requested people to not park their cars on that site.

    Interested, lets change this a bit , in Jahiliyya the Arabs noticed 5% increase in severe accidents, disabilities and deaths (Bala') in Safar each year, and they would not travel or go out of their houses much in this month. Now the Prophet rejected this "precautionary" efforts and told them to understand everything is from Allah, will you then still demand precautionary measures. But one can argue that they did not empirically observe a 5% increases in aforementioned and they were merely basing it on Wahm, We know for centuries in the past, people would die just going to hajj, lets say it was 5% every year, would we tell people not to travel by caravan to Hajj because we observed 5 people dying.

    Remember all the percentages you are quoting or stating are well below 50%, I will agree the stats reach well beyond 50% because now there is confidence "to a degree," and something that can now argue in favor of sabab aadi but still no where as near.


    "the concern isn't about conclusion, its about the immediate effect".

    This is where you are getting it wrong. The concern is indeed about the conclusion and NOT necessarily the immediate effect. Though it could be otherwise as well.

    If this is indeed the case, why would the Sharia tell sick and healthy people to stay where they are and not leave (out of fear of death or catching the "Plague" (plague is actually more deadly than covid), that is the "most probable" result given how we know pandemics work.
    We are told to stay and face "death," and one who flees from it , is compared to a renegade from war. If ihtiyat was the "maqsad", and if you are to apply "maqasid of sharia," it falls short to the hadith and command to stay put and face destiny.

    So given the city of "Adwabad" is infected by a deadly disease, the sharia commands the infected 30% and healthy 70% to stay put, by virtue of confinement in given city the infected infect the healthy now , 70% infected 30 healthy, 20% infected die. What this means is that every infected person is "somewhat" responsible, for infecting others, he is "responsible," for the death that results from infection/correlation.

    On what basis will you lift responsibility form them, knowing what you know about how pathogens and contagion works. Will the excuse Qadr of Allah be applied here but not in other places?


    قُلْ لَنْ يُصِيبَنَا إِلَّا مَا كَتَبَ اللَّهُ لَنَا
    “Say: ‘Nothing shall ever happen to us except what Allâh has ordained for us…’” (9:51).

    Let's change the scenario and let's say a person tries to kill another person with a "slow" poison. And this person dies in a year.
    Will the killer not be responsible? There were no immediate effects infact the person remained symptomless through out the year.


    The nature of poison being asymptomatic is different, it is not a fair comparison, a disease is considered asymptomatic when a person is hosting a pathogen and his immune system has rejected it, or it is in a "silent" stage to reappear (according to divine decree). There is little evidence to support that Asymptomatic people can spread a virus, all studies conclude is conjecture. Given my breakdown on how "disease is formed," there is stark difference between the symptomlessness of a poisonous element and a disease.

    On the other hand Mercury or lead poisoning will seem asymptomatic but it takes immediate effect when it enters the digestive system and is absorbed into the blood stream , slowly amplifying over time, finally surfacing at a later date.

    As for disease, the pathogen enters the body, it does not immediate take effect and will only "replicate" or be rejected according to what is destined. Given this point Lead or Mercury poisoning stills falls under Sabab Aadi, and pathogen under Wahmi. That means responsibility for poisons "yes," contagion "no."

    The Killer will be responsible, but its improper analogy to compare him to a symptomatic or symptomatic patient.

    Are we to hold all recipients of COVID, responsible for all the covid positive nurses and doctors, who "acquired" COVID, when they interacted with their patients, should we from accusing them and blaming them for being responsible for passing the pathogens by enrolling into the hospital and contaminating the air. If you do hold them responsible, what does that entail, if that entails no action, incurs no sin, then why are we even debating this issue, it makes no difference.

    Another Example:
    A diabetic person despite being warned by doctors to adopt a healthy lifestyle complete ignores his advise and doesnot mend his ways. The doctor has even told him that if he doesnot mend his ways, studies have shown that diabetics without proper glycemic control end up getting their toes amputated (10%), foot amputation (8%) and silent heart attacks (13%).
    The man doesnot mend his ways.3 months later, his toes are amputated. 6 months later his whole foot is amputated. After a year he dies from what they call a "Silent" heart attack.


    here this is again false analogy, diabetes is a non-communicable disease, it is inherited genetically or caused via poor nutrition and health habits therefore it cannot be applied in comparison to communicable diseases. Non-communicable fall under sabab aadi, the statistic here are directly correlated and take immediate effect.

    Is this person not responsible for not taking care of his health? Or is he going to present excuse of predestination for his inability of not taking the right actions? Despite being told by the doctor that he should mend his ways? Or is he going to say that this was Sabab Wahmi, so he is not responsible?

    As stated he is responsible for his actions here, since he in in control of this affair (by will of Allah) وَلَا تُلْقُوا بِأَيْدِيكُمْ إِلَى التَّهْلُكَةِ
    this ayah doesn't apply to Jihad and Contagion, if one is to say the prohibition of going into infected land is because its a means to cause self harm, then what off the people in the infected land? Is it not inflicting harm staying in their? so this verse has no baring on any thing in relation to jihad nor plagues. But for the rest scenarios it can apply, although the verse actually speaks about metaphorically ruining oneself from not giving charity.

    It is Qiyas Batil to compare a pathogen to Cyanide , Mercury, or any other "poisonous" material, because the poison will have DIRECT/Immediate effect to a normal individual.
    Again totally missing the point.

    We are not comparing COVID19 with cyanide poison in the sense that both have immediate outcomes. Not at all. We are not even saying that COVID19 and cynaide are correlated with equal or same mortality rates.

    The underlying assumption in your whole argument is: If a person can do certain activity even if doing a certain activity is correlated with let's say 5% mortality rate, and he knows this, and even then he proceeds to the activity, then there is no issue of responsibility here.

    Yes that is what I am assuming, death from COVID due to ME is sabab wahmi, not aadi, there are too many unknown factors with regards to mortality or infection of a person one cannot say It was Indeed my "covid pathogens" that got him sick, just because I was the last person they met. Until it becomes Aadi, which it will never, I don't see how I am responsible "in a blameworthy sense," I do acknowledge responsibility of being an agent, but that devoid of any blame.
     
  19. Abdullah Ahmed

    Abdullah Ahmed Active Member

    @Noor ul Shaam

    brother, give it a rest. nobody is coming out to debate you or your friend. this is an internet forum where people post things. if you wish to post your perspective, go ahead. but stop inviting people elsewhere, its getting annoying. its as if youre afraid to post your perspective fearing that only a controlled debate setting will allow you to prove your point. besides, people have other things going on as well in their lives.
     
    SaadSohail and Unbeknown like this.
  20. Noor ul Shaam

    Noor ul Shaam New Member

    Are you qualified to debate whether there is contagion In Islam or not with Haroon?

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2020

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