just another makan?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by Juwayni, Apr 24, 2017.

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  1. RazaRaza

    RazaRaza New Member

    In al-Mustanad al-Mu'tamad, Sayyidi Alahazrat (may Allah be pleased with him) gives preference to the opinion that the روح is جوهر مجرد rather than جسم لطيف. He also mentions a risala of his entitled بارقة تلوح من حقيقة الروح. Is this risala available?
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    there is no need to inquire in these things, nor required to be understood.

    surah al-isra'a, 17:85


    extract from imam razi's tafsir:


    those sound and firm in their sunni aqidah can read ibn qayyim's 'kitab al-ruH' for more perspectives and lots of useful information.

    alahazrat's munabbih al-munyah touches on some aspects (and has been mentioned earlier)


    sharh hamziyyah of ibn Hajar al-haytami that alahazrat has quoted:


    sharH hamziyyah of sulayman jamal (futuHat al-ahmadiyyah)

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  3. RazaRaza

    RazaRaza New Member

    JazakAllahu khayra. Much appreciated.

    This then leads to some further questions:

    1. The ruh is a creation and is therefore haadith. So how can it go beyond the boundaries of time and space?

    2. On the night of Miraj, did time stop? Did the miracle not take place outside of the boundaries of time?

    3. Is it possible for there to be a dimension beyond time and space that is still bound by boundaries and limits other than time and space; boundaries which are not known to man (and hence such a dimension would still be haadith, due to being limited, but limited in way that is beyond human intellect)?
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that is right.

    else how will you explain these verses?

    surat qaaf, 50:16


    surat baqarah 2:186


    surat al-waqi'ah 56:85

    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    la makan is not another makan. it just means that it is beyond space and time (and imagination).

    anything that is not qadim IS necessarily bound by space and time.

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
    Aqdas likes this.
  6. RazaRaza

    RazaRaza New Member

    Dear Shaykh Abu Hasan, I would highly appreciate if you can help clarify some issues?

    Is laa makaan a creation (makhlooq)?

    Is it something that exists, or just the absence of something?

    Does laa makaan necessarily also mean laa zamaan?

    Is everything that is not Qadeem necessarily bound by time and space?
  7. Juwayni

    Juwayni Active Member

    As Salāmu ʿAlaykum,

    Just to make sure my understanding is correct: قَابَ قَوْسَيْنِ or 'at a distance of two bows lengths' (Al-Qur'ān al Karīm, 53:9) isn't indicating an actual place, as Allāh (ʿAzza Wa Jall) is free from this, but it is an expression used to indicate closeness by way of obedience?
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  8. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    oh! i had not listened to hazrat taj'ush shari'yah's reply above, he clearly says that it is not mustah'il for ruh' to exist without space.

    mi'raaj sharif mubarak to all the brothers.
  9. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    i am still a bit confused about it. i asked an alim bout mairaj sharif and he appeared to believe that rasulAllah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem ascended from arsh with his body and left makaan behind, he didn't know about this risalah of ala hazrat alaihi rahmah wa riDwan. Also, it confuses me that when Allah subhan'u wa ta'ala first created the noor of rasulAllah alaihi afDalus salat wat-tasleem then there was no space, because the noor or haqiqat-e-muhammadiyyah is the first creation, so it means that creation can exist without space.
    Last edited: May 16, 2015
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  10. Musafir

    Musafir Active Member

    As 27th of Rajab nears can anyone shed more light on the answer given by Huzur Taj us Shar'iah may Allah preserve him regarding the rooh space and time
  11. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    jazakAllah for the reply. It will be nice if someone sheds light on the istilahat too.


    I meant the attributes under discussion and not overall. lest it be misunderstood. Astaghfirullah!

  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    ulama say, this and no more:

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
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  13. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well, well ....this is getting more difficult for me.

    1. Our aqida is:- Allah('azzawajal) is transcendent from space. Space envelops the thing which is in it and so is a delimiter for them. 'Limit' is an attribute which is mandatory for created beings and impossible for the Creator. This does not mean that the Creator has a an infinitely large body, for a body whether finite or infinite is after all an aggregation of parts and has other attributes all of which are markers of imperfection and the Almighty is free of all imperfections. So we negate for the Creator both 'limits' as well as 'body'. Thus His existence is beyond our comprehension.

    2. If we say that ruh can exist without space (la-makan is not an impediment to the existence of ruh) and that it is not a body either then we are left with only one attribute which makes it unlike the Creator - i.e the 'limits' - so ruh must have limits. But what is the nature of this 'limit'? surely it cannot be spatial limits because la-makan precludes 'space' already.

    some more questions regarding contemporary terminology viz a viz Kalam:

    1. Does jism = physical/material body as defined by science -i.e which lends itself to perception by our sensory organs or any other instrument which can detect material entities which follow the energy-to-matter-and-nothing-else principle? If so then what is the meaning of 'jism al lateef' when used for angles?

    2. Does makan = physical space as defined by science - the thing whose warps give rise to gravity? Or does it refer to the thing which is essential for a jism to exist whether or not it is the space whose existence physics acknowledges?

    3. Does hudood = spatial boundaries always? or can it be said to refer to the existential limits of a jism?

    4. Does zamaan = time as in the fourth dimension of universe, that which moves in the direction of increasing entropy?

  14. Musafir

    Musafir Active Member

    It was asked last week that In aqaid we learn that created things occupy a space and that this is wajib for them so existing without occupying space is mustahil for them.

    Following is the exact statement from Fatawa Ridawiyyah, Vol. 30, Page 648 (Risalah: Munabbih al-Munyah), AlaHazrat stated:

    "عرش تک منتہائے مکان ہے ، اس سے آگے لامکان ہے ، اورجسم نہ ہوگا مگر مکان میں ، تو حضور اقدس صلی اللہ تعالٰی علیہ وسلم جسم مبارک سے منتہائے عرش تک تشریف لے گئے اورروح اقدس نے وراء الوراء تک ترقی فرمائی جسے ان کا رب جانے جو لے گیا، پھر وہ جانیں جو تشریف لے گئے"

    In other words isn't the existence of the Rooh without makaan muhaal/mustaheel. How can this be explained?


  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    in fat'H al-bari [hadith #3888, 8/644] citing imam nawawi from his minhaj sharh muslim [2/214]: [who says that ibn abbas and other mufassirs have said:]

    it is named sidratul muntaha - the furthest; because this is the furthest reach of angels and no one except RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam has ever crossed it.

    [shaykh al islam debates other reasons for the name as in the hadith of ibn mas'ud, because "this is in the sixth heaven and the furthest anything that rises from the earth [reaches] and is then taken..." and that imam nawawi probably deemed it a weaker position]
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    that is not physical, as alahazrat's own explanation clarifies. this is "sayr e qalb" and not "sayr e qadam".
  17. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    and ala hazrat aliahi rahmah wa riDwan didn't comment on it.
  18. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    in the book mentioned above i found this, how can we explain it?

    Attached Files:

  19. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    I am extremely sorry for causing this misunderstanding. The following paragraph was not written to explain la-makan but to merely state that having heard people say this I had got confused until the mufti sahib cleared my doubts. Neither can I confirm whether sidrat-ul-muntaha is indeed the limit of hazrat Jibraeel ('alayhissalaam), I have merely heard people say this. [edit: just read above that it is the limit of angles]

    I indicated that by writing:
    and the following was written to show that if people hear the above wrong explanations then it's natural that they (like me) will get confused:

    yet I am glad that we will be getting to learn more from sidi aH :)

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  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    remember a few fundamental principles:

    1. bodies remain in space [makan]

    2. Allah ta'ala is free from space and time and distance and direction and from being a body or composition of particles (which are attributes of accidents - a'araD).

    3. the dunuww or closeness, nearness mentioned in the qur'an and hadith is figurative and not physical distance.

    a few relevant quotes from nasim al-riyad [p no.s are from the new edition]

    sidratu'l muntaha - the furthest lote tree: one of the reasons mentioned for its name is that it is the extreme reach of angels and they do not cross this. [naseem al-riyad 3/52]

    dunuww - nearness is a figurative expression [kinayah] to denote the nearness of his rank [near Allah] and his beholding Allah [mushahadah] which is not granted to anyone else. [nasim, 3/152]

    further explaining dana-tadalla, he says:

    it is progress in his nearness to his Lord - and this 'nearness' [qurb] is figurative, not physical. [ma'anawiyyan, la Hissiyan] [ibid. p152]

    {the Lord became close to Muhammad sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam} here, it does not mean nearness of space [dunuww al-makaniy] because Allah taala is transcendent from space [tanazzuh] nor is it nearness of knowledge, because this is not exclusive to him so that such a station can be praised and exalted; rather, such 'nearness' is nearness of rank, and exalting of his station [iyla'yi maqamih] and informing him of the wonders in the universe [`ajayibi malakutihi].

    [brown text is shifa of qadi iyad; blue is nasim ar-riyad.]

    {and nearness of Allah which is boundless} that is nearness [dunuww] of Allah, which is not nearness of distance [dunuww makaniy] which is bounded by space for bodies [Hayyiz al-ajsam] - rather it is figurative nearness [dunuww ma'anawi]. [ibid. p154.]

    in sharH al-mawaqif, there is a detailed section on transcendence of Allah ta'ala from space [marSad al-thani, maqSad al-awwal: annahu ta'ala laysa fi jihatin wa la fi makan, vol.8/p.22-29]

    on p28 mentioning dunuww and qaba qawsayn:
    dunuww means closeness [qurb] of His Messenger by way of obedience [bi't ta'ah]. and the description of 'qaba qawsayn' is for a mental picture of [the closeness] that was felt [taSwir li'l ma'qul bi'l maHsus].

    so also in sharh hamziyyah (afDal al-qira) and sharh burdah (`umdah) of ibn hajar al-haytami.
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