KAFIR and kafir?

Discussion in 'Aqidah/Kalam' started by abdarrashid, Oct 3, 2012.

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  1. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    only when it suits them, otherwise they are more literalist than a cockatoo and have no larger vocabulary than one.
  2. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    ḳhirad kā naam junūñ paḌ gayā junūñ kā ḳhirad
    jo chāhe aap kā husn-e-karishma-sāz kare

    intelligence is now called madness, and madness is intelligence!
    everything is possible, with the beauty of your miraculous ways!
    Ghulam Ali and Unbeknown like this.
  3. Juwayni

    Juwayni Active Member

    Weren't the Salafis known for innovating new divisions?
  4. naqshbandi

    naqshbandi New Member

    La hawla wa la quwwata ilah billah !
    What strange times we live in where words suddenly have novel meanings unknown to our Elders for 1400 years!

    I was prey to such "traditional Islam" for a long time until it took the straight talking and sometimes harsh but honest words of Allama Khadim Hussain Rizvi (ha) to wake me up from my slumber and realise that no the Islam of my parents, Traditional Islam, was the correct one after all and the same as it has always been.

    I also realised that there is a difference between being a sinner and accepting you are a weak sinner and hoping Allah forgives for the sake of the Habib (صلى الله عليه وسلم) and trying to change Islam from the inside instead to justify your sins and cosy up to what's fashionable these days!

    Again Mawlana Khadim Hussain was the surgeon who treated me. Sometimes surgery is the only cure and not sugar coated aspirin. Allah bless him and also Shaykh Asrar for keeping it real and not compromising. They show the real dignity in Sunni Islam. Real Sufism!
  5. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    Abdullah bin Hamid Ali has come up with a new triset of categories of kuffar:

    1. people who are kafir only in a socio-political sense
    2. people who are kafir only in a moral-spiritual sense
    3. people who are kafir in a post-mortis state

    he has not enlightened us if these categories are mutually exclusive or if is really a unity in a trinitistic sense.

    what does he he mean - the Qur'an almost never uses the word kafir in a positive sense?
  6. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    the lamp post video is about the same passage from the same book:

    al-Nawawī in the book of ridda of his Rawḍat al-ṭālibīn stipulated, “Someone who does not believe that whoever follows another religion than Islam is an unbeliever, like the Christians, or has doubts about declaring them to be unbelievers, or considers their way to be correct, is himself a kāfir even if with that he professes Islam and believes in it.”

    so now we don't know if shaykh g.f haddad considers perennialists Kafir (as Imam Nawawi states) or just kafir (as eshaykh and lamppost) claim.

    Sh. gibril will have to write a rejoinder and clarify what he meant to convey when he quoted Imam Nawawi.

    wow! words no longer mean anything definite.

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  7. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    the scourge of ta'weel:


    once you start allowing ta'weel of sareeh statements - whether by a linguistic interpretation or by using another statement and claiming that one of them should be turned away from it's apparent meaning so that the two become compatible - doing this for sareeh statements where neither language nor context allow for such a re-interpretation - then you open the door to fitnah such as cannot be contained by any proof of shari'ah - because you have made everything subject to "re-interpretation" - and so things no longer mean what they read and anything can be bent and twisted to mean what it does not read!

    pir saqib shaami take note.
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  8. abdarrashid

    abdarrashid Active Member

    Some may, opine, whether this notion of being critical of Traditional Islam and its adherents who try, each at their own levels, aspire to follow, rather then change it to suite their taste, (except when there is a need for ijtihad and ta'wil on new realities). But, for some of these other individuals (perennialists, some converts and others) are looking for is a "traditional Islam" relative to their context which is not what it may appear at the first instance (more a smokescreen) for this mechanism is already in place for different realities that adherents of Traditional Islam can exert themselves for, should the need arise (in the furu, and/or the dhanniyyat. This is one of the reasons, why, it is not monolithic). I think these other people may have more in mind the 'Usul, and not just the relied upon positions of the branches.

    The desire may be to relegate the Islam of the Sahaba and the ahl al-Bayt ridhwanullahi ta'la ajma'in (Traditional Islam) and likening it to salafism/wahabism, as an angle, an example of one way of disparaging, so that, whenever they are criticised by someone for straying, they may accuse of, an old retort, borrowed from the ahl al-bida', and has been suspected of them for quite some time. The idea, like the dajjal, the imposter, is to try to replace the Orthodoxy (the only valid one, if i may use this), a continous and unbroken one, from generation to generation, that is the ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama' with an "orthodoxy" more palatable to their desires, and to iblis, whom, one may suspect, some amoungst them, would like also to be accomodated on the "vertical plane", (this project of theirs could be one of the contributions, for example, to the degeneration of the women of the tribe of Daws, at the end of times), and with whom some have an intentional connection, that is inclusive of shirk, kufr, bida' and fisq, a type that our Pious Predecessors radiullahi ta'la anhum, may never have known.
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  9. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    When people begin to think that the deen is a 'wonderful personal experience' and then begin to tailor it according to their tastes, then there's little anyone can do, its easy to silence one's scruples: because shaytan circulates in our veins with our blood.

    It's very very important to have an external standard which can always give a reality check, enter luminaries of the ummah.

    But at the end it boils down to, "He whom Allah guides, none can misguide".

    "Allahumma hadina fi man hadayt". Ameen.
  10. abdarrashid

    abdarrashid Active Member


    The problem is, i think, people like this guy (link below) want hansan, perenialists etc to be accomodated, so that this maybe an objective to redfine Islam, even by using the excesses of the community as a smokescreen (associated with particuler regions). Also i did not know that our Ulama were cut of from the Tradition, or is this equivaction really to do with fact that people like him want something else packaged as Islam?
    The only people who talk like this are the TUR perennialists, in their perspective every one Sunni, shia, wahabi are all "orthodoxy".
    Some of these converts think it is a personal insult to them when hanson et al are put in their place, so its a convert thing, is it? We dont understand?
    Some like the aesthetic side, so when their egos discover disagreeable aspects to it about Islam and their notions of right and wrong or they might have got bored, how well did they research to begin with? And for what reasons did they come to Islam? Dont get me wrong, people are effected in different ways, Allah Azza wa Jall guides.
    It maybe that some think, they are doing the Muslims a favour by converting!
    Dont get me wrong we as a community dont have much support for new Muslims.

    Imam al-Hasan al-Basri rahimuhullah mentioned how their were less munafiqs during the time of the Sahaba ridwanullahi ta'la ajma'in and we must follow them, so i never knew our Tradition was cut of from them, "otherwise people would have said whatever they wanted to say whenever they wanted to say it"(Qadi Ibn al-Arabi rahimuhullah) remember?!
    Anyway, more some other time.

    This is what i had in mind....i may be wrong.



    Another reason that I characterize this particular orientation as “neo”-traditionali sm is that it is an attempt to restore things as they were (or at least as they are perceived to have been) during the period of our sacred history. This orientation cannot rightly be called “traditionalism” because truly authentic traditionalism can only be known and practiced by those who have not been influenced by modern thinking. And all of us living today in one way or another have been influenced by modern thinking. So the past cannot completely ever be retrieved. Another reason is that “traditionalism” was not a monolithic phenomenon when it actually did exist nor was it static. It was more dynamic than believed to be today.

    Seth Laffey*

    This article is so full of common sense that I can't imagine how anyone could disagree with anything he says here. At any rate, I agree with him that we in the West today can't really call ourselves "traditional" Muslims, anyway--unless by that we include an awareness of how tradition has changed and been influenced by modern ways of thinking, doing, and being. However, when I look around, it seems that many people want to be "Traditional," but don't realize that their traditionalism is a far cry from that of the people they wish to emulate. It just doesn't occur to them. Or maybe what we have*is*"traditional," but only if we think of tradition as a variegated, fluid, accommodating and dynamic phenomenon. But that's not the "tradition" that many people want or recognize. They want a certain type of abstraction ("capital T") that has been taken from select teachers and select cultures (Syria, Morocco, Pakistan, etc). There's nothing wrong with this, per se. But don't call it "Traditional Islam". Call it "traditional" (small "t"). Actually, I would agree that "Neo-Traditionalism" is a much more appropriate title for what we are trying to achieve, if we need to use a label, simply because there's no claim to be representing the Tradition as such implied by it.
  11. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    from the link:

    i didn't know alahazrat answered in english, therefore being able to differentiate between K and k.
  12. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator


    @eshaykh: What's Kaafir?
  13. Aqib alQadri

    Aqib alQadri Veteran

    the guy on eshaykh is hiding (kufr) the truth.
  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    oh, my mistake.

    actually the answer is to correct the capitals in the quote; not an opinion about the quote itself (hizmet books please note) it should be thus:

    “One who does not believe in one of the things indispensable in Islam becomes a Kafir. One who has suspicion of such a person’s not being a Kafir and in that he will not be punished in Hell eternally is a Kafir, too. That the latter, too, is a Kafir is openly written in the books Bazaziyya, Durr al-mukhtar, Qadi Iyad’s Shifa, Imam an-Nawawi’s Rawda and Ibn Hajar al-Makki’s Al-alam. It has been unanimously declared by the ‘ulama‘ of Islam that it also makes one Kafir to have doubt that it is infidelity (Kufr) if somebody does not regard a Christian, a Jew or a dissenter from Islam as a Kafir. This unanimity is written in the above-mentioned books..”

    there fixed it.

    now there are silver tongues and Silver Tongues...
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  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    btw, the original meaning of kafir was 'a farmer' as mentioned in the verse (al-hadid, v20) among arabs; and in usage it came to denote a disbeliever.

    this is like saying senad agic is a gay person.

    kafir means dark clouds (because it hides below it)

    kafir is a farmer (because he hides the seed under the earth)

    kafir also means a shield/armour (for it conceals that behind it) according to saghani

    kafir is that land which is untroddable.

    and saghani said kafir also means a plateau.

    kafir according to ibn shumayl filth, excrement.

    kafir is a plant

    kafir is a place

    kafir means darkness (as it conceals upon which it falls)

    kafir is what is concealed in a weapon

    to wear clothes on top of armour to conceal it is known as 'takfir' of the armour; and it is this meaning when RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said in the farewell hajj: "don't turn back to fighting after i go away" [kuffara - meaning wear armours, that is internecine fighting]

    a second meaning is don't call each others kafirs (as the khawarij did)

    takfir, mukaffiru'dh dhunub means expiation because it 'hides' the sin.

    the root of kufr k-f-r means to hide. satr.

    one meaning of kufr is to ignore (conceal) the gifts. thus the kafir (disbeliever) ignores the gifts of Allah ta'ala and thus disbelieves.

    don't be surprised if you see kafru'l awrah being a sharT for salah on eShaykh.

    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
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  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i am sure accents kāfir, káfir and weights kafir and styles kafir also have a bearing. how about point sizes and font-faces, do they play a role as well? for example, comicsans?

    kafir and kafir

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  17. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

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