Salaam brothers, Brother Abu Hasan what do you think of Imam 'Asim's latest video exposing the opposition and clearing his name. All praise be to Allah Almighty I am very happy that he cleared his name as it hurt me to hear people hating on him. And from the video it is clear that da'wah man and his teacher aren't even mutafiq (in consensus) on whether Milaad is haraam or not and the united front shown on video is not supported by the behind the scenes telephone conversations. Please share your scholarly thoughts...
Imam Ash-Shafi (May Allah have mercy on him) said: "Innovated matters are of two kinds: one is an innovation that contravenes something in the Qur'an, Sunnah, Companion-report or consensus: that innovation is misguidance.The other kind is the innovation of all good things contravening none of the above and is a blameless innovation. Umar said of the prayer in Ramadan "What a fine bid'ah this is!", meaning that it was innovated without having existed before and, even so it didn't contradict the above." reported by Ibn Hajr in Fath-ul-Bari with a sound chain according to Ibn Taymiyyah in Dar' Ta'rud al Aql wal Naql source: GF Haddad
earlier threads on the wahhabi / deobandi version of bidah http://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/shaykh-asrar-on-mawlid-debates.13073/ http://sunniport.com/index.php?threads/dawah-man-milad-bidah.13050/ Sunni Understanding of Bidah from AlaHazrat Website http://www.alahazrat.net/islam/concept-of-bidah-in-islam.php Definition of Bid'ah Bid'ah, literally means innovation. In special terms it means carrying out actions which displease Allah ta`ala and his messenger. [Tirmizi chapter Il] Qadi Shawkani writes "In Islam there are two kinds of Bid'ah: Bid'ah Say'iah and Bid'ah Hasana. If a new thing opposes the Qur’an and Sunnah then it is Say'iah, but if it is not against the Shari'ah then it is Hasanah. (Nayl-ul-Autaar, Qadi Shawkani chapter Salaah Al Taravee). Imam Nawawi writes that there are certain types of Bid’ah. Two of them are Bid’ah Sayyiah and Bid’ah Hasanah. Bid’ah sayyiah is a Bid’ah that opposes the Qur’an and sunnah and Bidah Hasanah is a Bid’ah that is not against the Qur’an or Sunnah. For example: To invent the usool (principle) of Hadeeth, usool of Fiqh, usool of Tafsir etc. [Tahzeeb al Asma wal lughaat word Bid’ah by Imam Nawawi] Hafidhh ibn Rajjab defines bida to mean new things that have no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. If a new practice has evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah it will not be Bid'ah Shari'ah, but it will be Bid'ah Logaviyya (linguistic). (Jaami' Al Uloom Al Hukkam page 252 by Hafidhh ibn Rajjab). Hafidhh Asqalani writes if a new thing is against Islam, it will be bad. If it is not against Islam, it will be hasanah (Good). (Fathul Bari chap on Taravi by Hafidhh Asqalani). Hafidhh ibn Taymiyyah writes that bid'ah is always bad, but some scholars say that there are two kinds of bid'ah, that one is good and one is bad. If a new thing has origin in the Qur'an and Sunnah it will be called Bid'ah Logaviyya (verbally) but not Bid'ah in Shari'ah. Only the word bid'ah will be used on the new things. Like, the Qur'an was collected in one book after the Prophet Muhammad [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace], and the congregational Taravi prayer was started in Sayyidna Umar's time but these two things have an origin in the Sunnah. Therefore, it will be called bid'ah verbally. (Iqtidah al Sirat al Mustaqeem chap on Bid'ah by Hafidhh ibn Taymiyya). From the above, the conclusion is that if a new thing has been started, and it neither goes against the Qur’an or Sunnah, then it can be declared a ‘good’ innovation. However, if a new act is initiated against the Qur'an and Sunnah, that will be called bad bid'ah, or a reprehensible innovation. Wahhabi Deobandi Bidah Version http://www.bidah.com/articles/rwmef...hariah-definition-of-bidah-and-its-proofs.cfm 1. The First Hadeeth of Aa'ishah Both al-Bukhari and Muslim relate the hadeeth of Aa'ishah (radiallaahu anhaa), which is the foundation of the definition of bidah in the Shariah: عن عائشة رضي الله عنها قالت: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: مَنْ أَحْدَثَ فِي أَمْرِنَا هَذَا مَا لَيْسَ مِنْهُ فَهُوَ رَدٌ Whoever introduces into this affair of ours that which does not belong to it, will have it rejected. Al-Shatibi's definition of bidah (see article here) is in fact founded upon this hadeeth, since this hadeeth has provided three very important conditions or restrictions which have made the meaning of bidah intended by the Shariah to be something unique. As such, nothing is considered a bidah in the Shariah sense except when these conditions are met. These three conditions are: (الإحداث) - Introducing something new (الإضافة) - Ascribing it to the religion (عدم الدليل الشرعي) - Absence of Shariah evidence [for this newly-introduced matter] in either a general way or a specific way These three qualifications are found in the hadeeth itself: First, he (alayhis salaam) said, (مَنْ أَحْدَثَ), and this refers to bringing anything new without any prior example. At this point, this could refer to all newly-invented things, praiseworthy or blameworthy, religious, or otherwise. Second, he (alayhis salaam) then qualified and restricted this by saying (فِي أَمْرِنَا هَذَ), which has now made it specific to the religion, so this newly-invented thing must be ascribed to the Shariah and to the religion. This now excludes all worldly matters and customs which have no connection to the religion, and likewise all matters of sin and disobedience which are unlawful in theShariah (like stealing, fornicating gambling and so on), since no one takes them as being from the religion when falling into them. Third, it could be the case that this newly-invented thing may have a basis in the Shariah, so he (alayhis salaam) further qualified the affair and said (مَا لَيْسَ مِنْهُ), which means, as explained by the Scholars, that it has no support from the Shariah, neither in a general sense (a general evidence) or in a specific sense (a specific evidence). An example of a general, non-specific evidence would be in the case of the compilation of the Qur'an into a single book (mushaf), since this comes under a general foundation in the Shariah which is the preservation of the religion (as one of the five essential matters it came to protect, religion, life, intellect, wealth, honour). So the compilation of the Qur'an exits from the Shariah definition of bidah. And an example of specific evidence would be that of the Tarawih prayer being prayed in congregation that was initiated by Umar bin al-Khattaab. This has a direct, specific evidence (the Prophet led the people in congregational Tarawih prayer for three nights in Ramadan in the mosque), and thus it exits from being a bidah in the Shariah sense. The same would apply to all legislated matters which have been forgotten or abandoned, and which are revived, they do not come under bidah with its Shariah meaning. And some scholars may refer to these matters as "good innovations" purely from a linguistic point of view, but what they really mean is revival of a forgotten Sunnah, and this is the meaning of the saying of Umar bin al-Khattaab (نعمة البدعة هذه), "What an excellent innovation this is" about his re-instituting the Tarawih prayer in congregation in the mosque. This is the same understanding of bidah that is found in the explanations of the overwhelming majority of Scholars such as Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali and Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani and others. And everything that comes under this definition is what is intended by the Messenger (alayhis salaam) in his saying (وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ), "Every innovation is misguidance." Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali said: فقوله صلى الله عليه وسلم كل بدعة ضلالة من جوامع الكلم لا يخرج عنه شيء وهو أصل عظيم من أصول الدين وهو شبيه بقوله صلى الله عليه وسلم من أحدث في أمرنا ما ليس منه فهو رد فكل من أحدث شيئا ونسبه إلى الدين ولم يكن له أصل من الدين يرجع إليه فهو ضلالة والدين بريء منه وسواء في ذلك مسائل الاعتقادات أو الأعمال أو الأقوال الظاهرة والباطنة وأما ما وقع في كلام السلف من استحسان بعض البدع فإنما ذلك في البدع اللغوية لا الشرعية فمن ذلك قول عمر رضي الله عنه لما جمع الناس في قيام رمضان على إمام واحد في المسجد So his saying (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) that "every innovation is misguidance" is from the comprehensive, concise words from which no matter (of innovation) [introduced in the religion] escapes from, and it is a mighty foundation from the foundations of the religion. It resembles his saying (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam), "Whoever introduced into this affair of ours that which does not belong to it will have it rejected." Hence, everyone who introduced something and ascribed it to the religion and it does not have any foundation in the religion to which it returns back to, then it is misguidance and the religion is free of it, irrespective of whether it is in the matters of belief, or actions or outward and inward statements. As for what occurs in the speech of some of the Salaf of considering some of the innovations to be good, then that is with respect to innovations with the linguistic meaning, not the Shariah meaning and from [the examples of that] is the saying of Umar (radiallaahu anhu) when he gathered the people together for praying in Ramadan behind a single imaam in the mosque. Jami' al-Ulum al-Hikam of Ibn Rajab in explanation of the hadeeth of al-Irbaad bin Saariyah (2/128). And Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani said: والمراد بقوله كل بدعة ضلالة ما أحدث ولا دليل له من الشرع بطريق خاص ولا عام And what is intended by his saying "Every innnovation is misguidance" is whatever is newly-introduced and has no evidence in the Shariah in neither a general way nor a specific way. Fath al-Bari (13/253). And he also said: و " المحدثات " بفتح الدال جمع محدثة والمراد بها ما أحدث ، وليس له أصل في الشرع ويسمى في عرف الشرع " بدعة " وما كان له أصل يدل عليه الشرع فليس ببدعة ، فالبدعة في عرف الشرع مذمومة بخلاف اللغة فإن كل شيء أحدث على غير مثال يسمى بدعة سواء كان محمودا أو مذموما ، And "the newly invented matters" (المحدثات), with the fathah on the daal, is the plural of novelty (محدثة) and what is intended by it is what has been newly-introduced and does not have any basis in the legislation. It is referred to in the usage of the Shari'ah as innovation (بدعة). As for what has a basis indicated by the Shari'ah then it is not an innovation. For "innovation" in the usage of the Shari'ah is blameworthy as opposed to its usage (with its) linguistic (meaning), for everything that has been newly-invented without any prior example is named "bid'ah" irrespective of whether it is praiseworthy, or blameworthy. Fath al-Bari (13/253). 2. The Second Hadeeth of Aa'ishah Muslim relates the hadeeth of Aa'ishah (radiallaahu anhaa) with his wording, in addition to the one above, that the Prophet (alayhis salaam) said: مَنْ عَمِلَ عَمَلاً لَيْسَ عَلَيْهِ أَمْرُنَا فَهُوَ رَدٌّ Whoever did an action which is not upon our affair will have it rejected. 3. The Third Hadeeth of Ai'shah (through Ibn Isa) And Abu Dawud relates in his Sunan, from Ibn Isa, that the Prophet (alayhis salaam) said: مَنْ صَنَعَ أَمْرًا عَلَى غَيْر أَمْرنَا فَهُوَ رَدٌ Whoever worked an affair in discrepancy with ours will have it rejected. Sahih. See Sahih al-Jami al-Saghir (no. 6369) The second and third hadeeths both add further meaning to what has preceded in that whoever works an affair or does an action which is not in agreement with the Shariah in its details and particulars will have it rejected. Together with the first hadeeth, these three ahaadeeth cover a) what is newly-invented having no basis whatsoever and b) what may have a basis but which in its details and particulars deviates and differs from what is in the Shariah. Thus, both the bidah haqiqiyyah (proper innovation) and bidah idafiyyah (relative innovation) - [see this article] - are both clarified in the Sunnah, warned against, and rejected. My Conclusion: Wahhabi Deobandi quoting Ibn Rajab and Ibn Hajar Doesn't make any sense when you read what Imam Nawawi has said, Bidah Hasana and Bidah Saiya. There is confusion in Wahhabi Deobandi understanding of Bidah.
i got to see this video in his defence. and he accepts that saying wAllahi was inappropriate. and he apologised publicly. https://www.facebook.com/ImamAsim/videos/901717663258038/ -- now, let guys list out all the 'wAllahi' the dawah-man says and hold him to it.
personally, i don't like the oral munazarah format - because i am not as quick as some people are with repartee. i would like to take time to think, turn over the other guys sentence to understand what he said-means-intends and then answer. many times in the past when i have hastened to answer, i have regretted it and wished that i should have given it more thought. that doesn't mean i have not debated verbally, but i always prefer a written debate. many a time, mid-sentence we change our mind, but the tongue would have gone ahead and caused the damage. [even posts in some cases are not impervious to this malady]. i find it safe to debate in a written format because no one can deny what was said or understood. (sometimes, people feign ignorance and say, ah i thought you said x,y,z... but it was p,q,r...). not everyone is as fluent and sound confident like the DM does. even our own nawaz sounds far smarter and comfortable than he does when he speaks. i don't hold it against him, but it is just that some of us are better speakers and some others can write better. the idea is not just to prove who can shoot faster or shout louder. rather, the debate should be to establish whose argument is valid and more appropriate.
i listened to this until 6.00 and it is disappointing, if we assume the DM to be speaking the truth. these things about recordings and contrary claims are not good. people ought to be honest and be willing to admit their error in EVERY situation. first, why do people throw challenges which they cannot meet or have not prepared beforehand? this is bravado, not courage. second, why have people absorbed this habit from saying 'wAllahi' and 'wAllahi'l azeem'. why can't he say in-sha'Allah? (assuming the recording is not snipped). third, this is not a defeat of ahl al-sunnah, even if a sunni was mauled. the definition of bid'ah by so many great imams cannot be erased or dismissed by people of today - regardless of what their claim to knowledge, arabic and hadith is. dawah-man or his teacher are nowhere near the level of shafiyi, bayhaqi, nawawi, ibn al-athir, qaDi iyaD, abu bakr ibn al-arabi, ibn al-Hajar, suyuti, zabidi et al (that is thousands of senior hadith imams; because only one or two scholar disagreed with that definition of bid'ah - and even they were quibbling about terms, which was mostly a semantic argument. this somali teacher of dawah-man (DM) should have the courage to say that everyone who differentiate the bid'ah in two categories as shafiyi did was wrong. he must write down that every one of them was misguided (starting from hazrat umar raDiyallahu `anhu and his son) and the correct definition of bid'ah is ONLY that which his somali teacher says. the somali may be like ibn Hajar to DM, but for me, he is a contemporary whose opinion is of little value if it is not compatible with great ayimmah. besides, it is a shame that these bunch of people have made celebrating mawlid a matter as important as kufr and islam. in one of his raving videos (DM seems to have sobered up a little in this vid - dunno, if he goes crazy later in the vid as i haven't watched in full yet) was asking about mawlid whether it was mustahabb wajib etc. everyone knows that it is a mustaHabb act, and only ahl al-bid'ah, prominently the wahabis/khawarij deny it in our time. regardless of who is right, the wahabis make mawlid as the only sin left on earth. you remove it, and alHamdulillah, the whole world becomes an exemplar of sunnah. why don't you heed advice of your own imam on one of the reasons of ikhtilaf in raf'a al-malam. ibn rajab's argument in hadith #28 of jamiy al-ulum wa'l Hikam sums up our explanation. if there is a basis in sunnah, then it is only bid'ah as a term to denote chronology not bid'ah as in opposing the sunnah. imams of hadith abu shamah, ibn Hajar, suyuti, iraqi, ibn al-jazary, ibn naSir dimashqi, ali al-qari, abd al-Haqq dihlawi, abd al-aziz dihlawi and his father and grandfather - all considered celebration of mawlid, having a basis in sunnah. a kulluhum Dullal? are all of them misguided and ignorant of the meaning of bid'ah and whether celebrating mawlid is not according to sunnah? sub'HanAllah. now, you cannot take this 'explanation' of bid'ah lughawiyyah / bid'ah as a term (lit. linguistic bid'ah) and restrict it only to hazrat umar's actions raDIyAllahu anhu. it actually defines the class of actions that have a basis in sunnah but came into practice after the time of RasulAllah sallALlahu alayhi wa sallam. fourth, in sha'Allah, these people will be humiliated some time later, wa billahi't tawfiq. fifth, i think it is now quite clear, why shaykh asrar said that he would debate on usuli issues and not furuyi/mustaHabb matters. ----Allah ta'ala knows best.
Ok i made that post after watching abt the first 27 minutes. Now i saw the closing comments. Alhamdulillah that Asrar Rashid accepted the challenge and we pray to Allah he humiliates the wahabis. No point refuting the anti-Umar shaytan that we have run away from debates. We know well how the subcontinental wahabi clowns function and how eager they are to debate us or run away with their tails between their legs. Plus who stops these shayateen from writing. Let them issue a point by point refutation of Ala Hazrat's fatawa that they find contentious, if they really have haqq on their side. Present any full fatwa on any topic so the honest awam knows you're not stripping it off its context, and proceed to refute it point by point. This is a challenge and luckily you can't claim that xyz backed out.
Please brother do point out where I have stated anything against the ahlesunnat point of view and I will in-shaa-Allah correct myself. JazakAllah!
Leaving aside that dawah man's dramatizations, unless Asim too has some recordings of the wahabis deceptions, it looks like Asim acted hastily and stupidly and let the Ahlus Sunnah down. Secondly, i dunno what the wahabis discussed with Asrar Rashid coz dawah man says that he specifically requested his recording not be shared. Does that mean Asrar Rashid knew he was being recorded? I have no doubt these guys are cheats but i know we too have no shortage of people with no hikmah.
subhan'Allah! In your case, one who reviles sahaba ikram. so it corcerns you that ahlesunnat were defeated by wahabi's [which they wern't] but upholding the honour of sahaba ikraam is off no importance to you? how strange
dear brother please explain what is a baaghi? Of Course, it concerns me that ahlesunnat were defeated by the wobblers.
Indeed very sad that these group of people made ahl al-sunnah look like the losers. It's clear from the audio of the excuses and running away from the wobblers. I Hope the other challenge with the wobblers by another mawlana goes through and he too does not do an Asim-stylie-wylie
