Mufti Fazl Chisti and his critics

Discussion in 'Siyar an-Nubala' started by AbdalQadir, Oct 16, 2020.

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  1. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Modern-day school system, democracy etc. are not free of faults/evils. At best (and at conceptual level), these are mubah (if free of anything un-Islamic). In practice, these are riddled with problems and un-Islamic features. There are traditional, alternative Islamic nizams (institutions/processes) which are superior to modern schooling system, democracy etc. So Mufti Chishti is not completely wrong in railing against these, even if he sounds anti-modern and "out of touch". Unless he does unqualified (mutlaq) takfir of proponents of schools, democracy etc. (so far there's no evidence for the same), he can't be labelled extreme.

    As far as his criticism of DI is concerned, he probably has few valid points; but it is unfair on his part to disparage it completely, without appreciating its positive contribution/impact. He seems to have softened his view of late (and he even quoted DI's Faizan-e-Amir Muawiya booklet in his recent lecture). He is answerable for his extreme views on DI, but not on the above issues.

    As far as his language is concerned, he may sound brash, vituperative at times (against his favourite targets) but he is nowhere as bad as Irfan Shah. Again, he is answerable for his language if used for people against whom he should be withholding his tongue.
  2. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    In this audio he clearly stated very extreme opinions regarding DI, voting system, and school. this is astonishing that he is so extreme against DI while his teacher, molana Irshad Hussain Jhandyalvi rahimahullah was a pro DI, and his sons are pro DI to date.

    and use of abuses - majority panjabi ulama don't think it is bad, they say it is part of the culture.
  3. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    An old video of Mufti Fazl Chishti giving tablighis a proper dressing down (video is mis-captioned as "munazra with jameel").

  4. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i don't understand punjabi fully either, other than elementary and basic punjabi.

    the criticizing shaykh (Khursheed saab) says Fazal Chishti saab calls it kufr. he gives 'smart' reasons for the same saying perhaps he was beaten up by a masterji or had his sandals or school bag stolen or something.

    Fazal Chishti saab is defending his position on "school ke khilaf" (based on the video you linked, and my meager understanding of punjabi). he says he's not worried about stolen sandals, but rather stolen daughters and sisters and stolen izzat in schools. if he's just "khilaf" of schools (as opposed to takfeer), then that's a fair point really, and even something to take on board and consider seriously.

    our madrasa and darse nizami system itself is in shambles. and it doesn't contribute much to the community if the half baked ulema of the times just look the other way citing mibah for modern school system. it will be only twice as bad for the millah.

    to be honest, a whole lot of people are "school ke khilaf" now because of the unrestricted kufr and other fitnahs taught there. in my school days, in a Muslim country, hindu teachers used to tell ganpati stories to seven year old Muslim students - i repeat, in a Muslim country, circa 80s and 90s!

    these days there are "Islamic" schools where the "bade bhai" concepts of wahabi disrespect are taught, modern secular schools teach lgbt acceptance, and so on. in india, convents teach christian prayers to children. in so many well respected Muslim families with 'deeni' temperament in my part of india, a 'convent educated' girl is considered the ideal bahu with perfect manners. upper class Muslims would sell a kidney to get their kids educated in a convent and wear blazers with the cross printed on it!

    in his recent diatribes against Islam and Muslims, macron specifically even talked about monitoring Muslim schools in france, and he even spoke about closely monitoring home schooling for Muslim communities

    it isn't rocket science that schooling (home, or public, or private school, or anything in between) is a project to shape the future generation's mindset. anyone can ask himself or herself how are they doing that with their currently chosen schooling system/method.

    personally i am extremely skeptical and cynical of modern schooling for Muslims, be it public or private.

    the devbandis are far ahead of us in schooling. i know in karachi they have successfully implemented some maktaba system, where Quran hifz and fiqh (devbandi) are taught, and by the 12th class, the student comes out as a hafiz, (devbandi) aalim, and 12th pass. it's a more strenuous routine, where kids spend time at school like a working person, from 8-5 and it includes everything lunch, afternoon snooze, secular & religious studies, etc.

    we are sleeping, as usual.

    anyway, coming back to FC, it was disingenuous to defend "school ke khilaf" if he really espoused a fatwa of "kufr" as stated by the criticizing mawlana khursheed. by the same token, it was also wrong of the criticizing mufti/mawlana to portray a "school ke khilaf" opinion as takfeer. we don't know which of the two mawlanas played smart here.

    BUT modern schools (even in a place like pakistan) being factories producing liberals, feminists, secularists, perennialists, qadiani sympathizers, etc. and teaching daughters and sisters to forsake their haya and izzat is open to anyone who isn't summum bukmun 3umyun!

    @abu Hasan's post # 27 on this very thread is very closely related to the topic of schooling too in the sense of modern fitan and threats to Sunniyat.
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
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  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    alHamdu lillah.
  6. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    The video says that the gag was temporary and is not in force any more; hence Mufti sahab is now free to speak. Except for a brief hiatus in September (which probably matches with speaker's claim), Mufti sahab has been delivering several lectures since the "summer of discontent". His last 2 lectures have been delivered in last couple of weeks.
  7. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i do not know if mufti fazl chishti sahib has been prohibited from speaking.

    if this is the case, then we must support him - by filling in (to the best of our ability) with dalail and kicking in the teeth of mubtadiyin.
    so long as mufti fazl is unavailable, feel free to post a video that needs a radd. in sha'Allah, we will do our part.

    those who are not under pakistani tyranny can record videos.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  8. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    If this video is to be believed, then establishment tried to temporarily gag Mufti Fazl Chishti from speaking on issues (supporting Dr Jalali):

  9. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    yes it cannot be denied that DI knows how to keep its base immovable and more or less untouched even during periods of high tides - and I feel that the very things that form the major points of valid criticism against them - are enabling them to do this.

    It's a question of perspective - and of priorities. And there is room for disagreement.

    On the flip side - the points of failures are very limited - which is either very good or very bad ...

    And Allah knows best.
  10. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    I'd say it's because of Di's commemorating Urs, doing Juloos, sloganeering and mentioning the virtues of Hazrat Ameer Muawiyah (Allah Almighty is pleased with him) that all the jackles have been revealed who were hiding amongst sunnis.

    Many sunnis who still followed Minhaji Mia, Ajmer tafi/shia mafia, Neefa rafizi of pindi aswell as various other sellouts had their eyes opened due to the aforementioned scoundrels being unable to contain themselves after seeing Di doing all this and televising it for the masses to see.

    Personally I think on hiting the Minhaji/Tafi/Shia/Rafizi brigade where it hurts Di has done a job like no other. They've clarified Sunni beliefs and provided ample solid answers to any objections raised by the rafizis and the jackles on their payroll. All this whilest following their rules of no names etc.

    Many may not agree with the no names policy but the fact is DI do get the message across crystal clear to their following and we have to remember that following is massive and being constantly educated and trained to be solid sunnis who are able to recognise sellouts such as Irfani Mia, Neefa Rafizi, Munawar Jamati, PAQS as well as their chamche like Raja Nabeel of Coventry.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  11. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Imagine if one of the big deo scholar was locked up in the manner that Jalali Sahib is in solitary confinement. I have heard no books are allowed and even their medicine has been stopped, all because they are unwilling to be cowed. The deos would have caused so much commotion and the gov would have no choice to release them. Sunnis need to unite and force the Gov's hand. Don't just stop there too, drag Syed Munawwar Jammati and co into court for questioning because it is clear they are acting on an agenda.
  12. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    The brutal reality is that at this moment no one scholarly figure stands out as a leader or as someone that can unite and tackle the ever growing issues of our time. This is why it is so so important that our ulema stop cutting each other's legs off and work together. As @abu Hasan said in a previous post, everyone needs to play their part. Stop doing your own thing and do your bit. That's the only way.

    DI is doing its part for the maslak and doing it well. It falls on our political organisations like Jammat e Ahle Sunnah and Sunni Tahreek to really push the Jalali Sahib issue for example. It falls on the likes of Mufti Muneeb ur Rehman to counter the narrative peddled by the likes of Syed Riaz Shah, Syed Irfan Shah and others.
    Everyone needs to play their part.
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    this is where leadership is lacking.

    these are good ulama and capable individuals but i don't look at them as leaders. it is my opinion. feel free to disagree or dump it.

    capability, charm, qualities, knowledge automatically makes some stand apart from others. people gravitate towards them. but are they 'leaders'? not always. leadership is thrust upon them. and they rally people only upon the goodwill of people.

    leaders should think about the people. actively seek out their problems, genuinely sympathise with them. if you cannot solve their problems, at least try to understand their perspective. AND lead them by showing them the way, being with them and walking in front of them.

    our ulama sit on high pulpits and call out from tall ivory towers. it is difficult to hear what they are saying and for them to get any feedback...

    it is easy to pontificate from the pulpit. emotional speeches, anecdotes and rousing speeches are all fine but in the long term we need solutions for people. blaming the west, blaming the enemies of islam, blaming people for forsaking the sunnah of RasulAllah SallAllahu alayhi wa sallam are not solutions. these could qualify as diagnosis and lament but not solutions.

    there is a tsunami of issues coming our way - and our ulama are blissfully unaware.

    major strides in astronomy, life sciences, robotics, AI and other areas, radical cultural changes, changes in demographics, etc. will unleash a torrent of questions. and on top of this you will face disinformation, propaganda, ruthless assassins disguised as helpful and kind guides (check mark hanson for a real-life example) and internal enemies waiting for an opportunity to pounce upon your iman.

    common muslims need answers. they need guidance. for the times we live in.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
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  14. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    While I sound like being over-critical of DI, I am not trying to belittle its services or fault its positioning.

    At the same time, I realise that DI as an organisation is not geared to check fitna like tafdhilism etc. I know that DI has made lot of effort (going against the grain to raise slogans in favour of Sayyiduna Amir Muawiyah) in its own way. But in times like these, response against likes of Hanif Quraishi, Irfan Shah etc. requires forsaking self-preservation to combat such fitna head-on. Ilk of Dr Jalali, Mawlana Khadim Rizwi, Mufti Fazl Chishti etc. (for all their respective inadequacies) have their own useful role in situations which demand robust response.
  15. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    well, their reply to that is (from what I've heard) they don't want to appear threatening to any establishment - lest their freedom of movement and operation in various countries around the world be jeopardized.

    They often highlight the fact that the Gov of Pakistan has declared them as a "peaceful" organisation. That, this endorsement allows them to operate freely at home and elsewhere.

    To openly join any agitation or protest movement would invite a swift ban and that would put an end to its da'wa activities.

    They say that they are safeguarding one flank - and remaining pacifist is essential to be able to continue doing so - and hence they should not be dragged into spotlight in activities that have political fallouts.

    They contribute in other ways perhaps - by allowing or encouraging their non-key members to participate in such protests - and perhaps that was the reason that the strict dress code - after years of digging ther heels in the face of criticism - was finally dropped - because DI members could easily be identified in throngs of all sorts. And that might have raised not a few eyebrows.

    These are my surmises.

    Allah knows best.
  16. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I don't disagree with you at all on DI. I have said so in private (with you) and in public on this forum that DI and Mawlana Ilyas Attari's services and accomplishments are exceptional. All I am saying is that saheeh ul-aqeedah ulemas, across the spectrum, need to rise above partisanship and factionalism. If you think harder, so too must DI.

    DI, by being insular (not involving ulemas outside their fold, or inviting them to their platform), makes it harder to be an inclusive platform (which limits its own ability to become a unifying force). In trying to be non-partisan, non-polemical, DI doesn't take stand for others (sunni ulemas under attack) in public. Have you seen them stake their position on Dr Jalali issue? Even if they may have stated similar position on khata ijtihadi, have they demanded release of Dr Jalali (which should appear odd given that several ulemas from India have been vocal in demanding Dr Jalali's release)? DI hardly has representation in tahaffuz and namoos-e-risalat movements, which even though being agitational, has served the purpose of checking the Pakistani establishment from slipping up on blasphemy act, qadianis etc. I know of few DI old-timers who left after feeling stifled by its insular approach.

    Bottomline is that for the sake of maslak/ummah, we need ulemas (outside DI) and DI-like tabligh organisations to be working in tandem, or at least refraining from friendly fires. In times when people like Munawwar Jamaati, Irfan Shah, PAQ et al are doing open khayanat, we direly need ulemas who are vocal defenders of aqeedah (and DI falls short here).

    As a non-partisan layman, I don't condone name calling or mutual belittling, and I so wish this affliction goes away.
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  17. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    it will not be an exaggeration to say that DI and madani channel have contributed immensely for the spread of alahazrat's name, his works, his na'ats, ulama of ahl e sunnat. [i sneezed just now, does it count as good fa'al].

    the books tamhid e iman and husam al haramayn, jaa' al-Haqq etc rudud are published by DI and in many cases they are the best editions to date.

    plus you will not find DI folks praying behind a deob or praising any of their ulama. you won't find a single reference to deo books/works/ulama in DI activities, rasa'il etc. i am not a DI member, not a murid of mawlana ilyas but let us learn to give credit where it is due.

    wAllahu a'alam.
  18. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    It should be noted that while the Sunni commentator is right that tablighis and tarık zaleel are like taqiyyabaz Rawafid and munafiqs hiding there beliefs, DI wears it's Sunniyat and Ridawiyyat on the sleeve and never hides it despite their non-political and non-polemic approach.
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  19. Aqdas

    Aqdas Staff Member

    What a post!
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  20. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    People against DI keep forgetting the actual reason DI was formed.

    Like countries have armies, navies, air forces to counter the effects of their respective enemies' respective forces, same case here.

    It's idiotic to say we don't need an air force because they anyway mainly strike targets on ground, and we have an army for that.

    Your larger machine and we are all components example is very apt.

    DI was formed specifically to counter the effects of the devbandi menace of tablighi Jamat and the wahabi nuisance of their own dawah by young disillusioned boys.

    DI is only aimed at tackling the common man on the street and offering him a Sunni dawah & tabligh so that he doesn't get eaten by wolves.

    Actually, the devs themselves are against tablighi Jamat for not following khanqah style mureedi, madrasas style Ifta, zameel style polemic "rebuttals" and so on. Listen to this below leaked audio from tarık zaleel to get a feel for what their tablighi Jamat is about, and maybe the anti-DI folks might appreciate their modus operandi somewhat


    will reply to some of the other posts re FC AJ etc later
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