Mufti Fazl Chisti and his critics

Discussion in 'Siyar an-Nubala' started by AbdalQadir, Oct 16, 2020.

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  1. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    There are several sobering examples of political forays which didn't end up well. For instance, Allama Hamid Saeed Kazmi ended up being falsely implicated for corruption.
  2. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Afaik, Imam Suyuti guesstimated it to be around 1425 hijri, Ala Hazrat to around 1841

    With the current situation and world affairs, Allahu a3lam how far we are from that time, and how much further south things will head.
  3. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    curious about stupid and aberrant opinions? do we need proof for outright nonsense?
  4. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    no sane person will say that islam is compatible with present form of democracy where na-ahl people can be elected only if they have mindless awaam 'vote' for them.

    when the ship is wrecked, and you are drowning, using lifeboats or hanging on to floating timber is not a choice. standing on the deck of a sinking ship, making a grand speech on how robust ships are and why using lifeboats are not the right choice for sailing the seas are not actions of wise men.

    democracy on paper might look good, but in practice it is deeply flawed - and we have seen it in all its glory in the US elections. they can be rigged and THEY ARE RIGGED. the system is openly gamed and a pretense of 'for the people, by the people' and a facade of 'equality, liberty, brotherhood' is maintained.

    neither are governments - so called democracies - for the people or by the people; nor is there true equality or fraternite.

    but we have to navigate through this system. muslims need to be disabused of their jahalat and their pining for this 'taraqqi'. personally, i don't think it will happen until imam mahdi appears.

    one of the pre-conditions for imam mahdi's arrival is that there will not be muslim rule anywhere in the world. the world will be ruled by christians.

    khadim husayn rizwi sahib - may Allah forgive him and have mercy upon him - wanted to rekindle the zeal and iman of the Sahabah from a people far removed from their time!

    in a hadith of tirmidhi: "you (sahabah) are in a time if you abandon 1/10th of what you are commanded, you will perish; there will come a time on my ummah, when they will be saved if they manage to fulfill 1/10th of what they are commanded." [hadith slightly reworded]

    one has to be realistic.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  5. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    I'd also be very curious of his (FC) opinion on Shah Ahmed Noorani sahib who used Pakistan's jumhoori system and got the law passed in the parliament to officially declare qadianis kafirs.
  6. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    Ironically, Khadim Hussein Sahab more or less agreed with him.

    In this interview, he clearly says Islam is against jumhooriyat (at least the Pakistani style) and we are only using it as a tool to achieve our aims:

  7. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I am not condoning Mufti Fazl Chishti's name calling (which Mufti Aslam Bandyalwi also referred to in the other video). I just paraphrased the long video for ease of users here.

    If he has strong views against democracy, jinnah, modern schooling etc., then he is welcome to maintain his stance. Calling non-compatible views as kufr etc. (although he explicitly says he doesn't consider Mawlana Khadim Rizwi as kafir) is seriously wrong and unbecoming of any aalim.

    Notice how Dr Ashraf Jalali dismisses him as "some Chishti with a sing-song voice". It's hard to command respect when you don't accord respect to others. I had the feeling from the outset of following Fazl Chishti's bayaans over last few months that he was a divisive figure who was on the fringes.

    Even though AlaHazrat disapproved of muslim leaders' participation in Congress-led movement, he never stooped to name-calling even the politicians, let alone label them as kafirs etc. If Mufti Fazl claims to be following the footsteps of AlaHazrat, then he too should desist from making takfir on trivial issues.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
    Ghulam Ali likes this.
  8. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i agree with some of his positions but some others are moronic.

    i have always said that politics is dirty business and ulama should keep out of it. if at all they need to get involved, they should stop at giving guidance and explaining sharayi limits.

    that said, throwing takfir freely is the method of khawarij.

    he should have; if he did not, that does not mean he loved them. only morons will make that deduction.
    now fazal chishti should speak against every insulter there is in the world, and every topic that is. else what should we take him to be?

    personally, i do not like the names of RasulAllah and sahabah in movements of today, because kafirs and enemies abuse those names. just like the kalimah tayyibah in saudi flag. it should be removed. else, you end up like the kalimah flying alongside swedish and danish flags with the cross!
  9. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I had come across this video few days ago, but decided against posting it here since I thought this controversial video will raise few hackles, given the timing and raw emotions:

    Mufti Fazl Chishti outlines reasons why he skipped Mawlana Khadim Husain Ridwi's janazah and why he dissuaded his own friends/followers from doing so. Main points start from 16:00 mins onwards.

    His objections against Mawlana Khadim rest on following grounds:

    (1) Mawlana Khadim never raised any voice against insulters of Allaha (jalla jalalahu), namely the rabid shias; he never called for actions against blasphemers like shias [several clips included, from 23:00 to 30:00]

    (2) compromises made for politics (allegations of having fielded non-sunni/shia candidates)

    (3) why "Ya Rasullullah" was dropped from Tahreek's name? why was the compromise made to accommodate political ambition? Dr Jalali openly disavowed the modification of "Tahreek Labbaik Ya Rasullullah" to "Tahreek Labbaik Pakistan" [see 39:23+]

    (4) democracy/jamhooriyat is an anathema to core Islamic values and invariably jamhooriyat does lapse into secularism and becomes antithetic to Islam. Mufti Fazl cites Fatwa Bareilly Sharif to support his point.

    (5) Jinnah's pledge to bring Muslims and Hindus at equal footing was death-knell to Pakistan's aspiration to Muslim state [see around 46:00 mark]

    (6) Mawlana Khadim Rizvi seeking jinnah/babaji's (a murtad/kafir in his opinion) blessings [around 51:45]

    (7) for narrow gains, Mawlana Khadim brushing the sectarian differences as valid in order to drum support for TLP [58:12+]

    (8) slogan of "Labbaik Pakistan" is misleading and baseless, since Pakistan is not a Muslim state [1:07:20+]. Secular Pakistan is against Islamic ideals

    (9) for election Mawlana Khadim claimed that "vote for TLP was a transaction for jannah", and after losing election he called it a mere jumla and shugl [1:08:20+]


    Whether or not you view Mufti Fazl Chishti's stance on skipping janazah as extreme; some of objections that he has raised can't be brushed under the carpet. Some of his charges are serious, others bit trivial.

    Was Mawlana Khadim Rizwi's plunging TLYR movement into rumble-tumble of dirty electoral politics a mistake? Invariably such move results in compromises and mis-steps (which Mufti Fazl Chishti has highlighted). Sa'ad Rizwi's latest video Tariq Zaleel (that I posted on other thread) shows what political compulsions lead to. In my view, TLYR was a much-needed movement, but TLP is a deviation from original goal.

    But was it Mawlana Khadim Rizwi's sole responsibility to call out shias? Should Mufti Fazl Chishti maintain silence on issues of minor difference, instead of spreading intishar? I think so.
  10. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Modern-day school system, democracy etc. are not free of faults/evils. At best (and at conceptual level), these are mubah (if free of anything un-Islamic). In practice, these are riddled with problems and un-Islamic features. There are traditional, alternative Islamic nizams (institutions/processes) which are superior to modern schooling system, democracy etc. So Mufti Chishti is not completely wrong in railing against these, even if he sounds anti-modern and "out of touch". Unless he does unqualified (mutlaq) takfir of proponents of schools, democracy etc. (so far there's no evidence for the same), he can't be labelled extreme.

    As far as his criticism of DI is concerned, he probably has few valid points; but it is unfair on his part to disparage it completely, without appreciating its positive contribution/impact. He seems to have softened his view of late (and he even quoted DI's Faizan-e-Amir Muawiya booklet in his recent lecture). He is answerable for his extreme views on DI, but not on the above issues.

    As far as his language is concerned, he may sound brash, vituperative at times (against his favourite targets) but he is nowhere as bad as Irfan Shah. Again, he is answerable for his language if used for people against whom he should be withholding his tongue.
  11. Noori

    Noori Senior Moderator

    In this audio he clearly stated very extreme opinions regarding DI, voting system, and school. this is astonishing that he is so extreme against DI while his teacher, molana Irshad Hussain Jhandyalvi rahimahullah was a pro DI, and his sons are pro DI to date.

    and use of abuses - majority panjabi ulama don't think it is bad, they say it is part of the culture.
  12. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    An old video of Mufti Fazl Chishti giving tablighis a proper dressing down (video is mis-captioned as "munazra with jameel").

  13. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    i don't understand punjabi fully either, other than elementary and basic punjabi.

    the criticizing shaykh (Khursheed saab) says Fazal Chishti saab calls it kufr. he gives 'smart' reasons for the same saying perhaps he was beaten up by a masterji or had his sandals or school bag stolen or something.

    Fazal Chishti saab is defending his position on "school ke khilaf" (based on the video you linked, and my meager understanding of punjabi). he says he's not worried about stolen sandals, but rather stolen daughters and sisters and stolen izzat in schools. if he's just "khilaf" of schools (as opposed to takfeer), then that's a fair point really, and even something to take on board and consider seriously.

    our madrasa and darse nizami system itself is in shambles. and it doesn't contribute much to the community if the half baked ulema of the times just look the other way citing mibah for modern school system. it will be only twice as bad for the millah.

    to be honest, a whole lot of people are "school ke khilaf" now because of the unrestricted kufr and other fitnahs taught there. in my school days, in a Muslim country, hindu teachers used to tell ganpati stories to seven year old Muslim students - i repeat, in a Muslim country, circa 80s and 90s!

    these days there are "Islamic" schools where the "bade bhai" concepts of wahabi disrespect are taught, modern secular schools teach lgbt acceptance, and so on. in india, convents teach christian prayers to children. in so many well respected Muslim families with 'deeni' temperament in my part of india, a 'convent educated' girl is considered the ideal bahu with perfect manners. upper class Muslims would sell a kidney to get their kids educated in a convent and wear blazers with the cross printed on it!

    in his recent diatribes against Islam and Muslims, macron specifically even talked about monitoring Muslim schools in france, and he even spoke about closely monitoring home schooling for Muslim communities

    it isn't rocket science that schooling (home, or public, or private school, or anything in between) is a project to shape the future generation's mindset. anyone can ask himself or herself how are they doing that with their currently chosen schooling system/method.

    personally i am extremely skeptical and cynical of modern schooling for Muslims, be it public or private.

    the devbandis are far ahead of us in schooling. i know in karachi they have successfully implemented some maktaba system, where Quran hifz and fiqh (devbandi) are taught, and by the 12th class, the student comes out as a hafiz, (devbandi) aalim, and 12th pass. it's a more strenuous routine, where kids spend time at school like a working person, from 8-5 and it includes everything lunch, afternoon snooze, secular & religious studies, etc.

    we are sleeping, as usual.

    anyway, coming back to FC, it was disingenuous to defend "school ke khilaf" if he really espoused a fatwa of "kufr" as stated by the criticizing mawlana khursheed. by the same token, it was also wrong of the criticizing mufti/mawlana to portray a "school ke khilaf" opinion as takfeer. we don't know which of the two mawlanas played smart here.

    BUT modern schools (even in a place like pakistan) being factories producing liberals, feminists, secularists, perennialists, qadiani sympathizers, etc. and teaching daughters and sisters to forsake their haya and izzat is open to anyone who isn't summum bukmun 3umyun!

    @abu Hasan's post # 27 on this very thread is very closely related to the topic of schooling too in the sense of modern fitan and threats to Sunniyat.
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
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  14. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    alHamdu lillah.
  15. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    The video says that the gag was temporary and is not in force any more; hence Mufti sahab is now free to speak. Except for a brief hiatus in September (which probably matches with speaker's claim), Mufti sahab has been delivering several lectures since the "summer of discontent". His last 2 lectures have been delivered in last couple of weeks.
  16. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i do not know if mufti fazl chishti sahib has been prohibited from speaking.

    if this is the case, then we must support him - by filling in (to the best of our ability) with dalail and kicking in the teeth of mubtadiyin.
    so long as mufti fazl is unavailable, feel free to post a video that needs a radd. in sha'Allah, we will do our part.

    those who are not under pakistani tyranny can record videos.

    wa billahi't tawfiq.
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  17. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    If this video is to be believed, then establishment tried to temporarily gag Mufti Fazl Chishti from speaking on issues (supporting Dr Jalali):

  18. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    yes it cannot be denied that DI knows how to keep its base immovable and more or less untouched even during periods of high tides - and I feel that the very things that form the major points of valid criticism against them - are enabling them to do this.

    It's a question of perspective - and of priorities. And there is room for disagreement.

    On the flip side - the points of failures are very limited - which is either very good or very bad ...

    And Allah knows best.
  19. Brother Barry

    Brother Barry Veteran

    I'd say it's because of Di's commemorating Urs, doing Juloos, sloganeering and mentioning the virtues of Hazrat Ameer Muawiyah (Allah Almighty is pleased with him) that all the jackles have been revealed who were hiding amongst sunnis.

    Many sunnis who still followed Minhaji Mia, Ajmer tafi/shia mafia, Neefa rafizi of pindi aswell as various other sellouts had their eyes opened due to the aforementioned scoundrels being unable to contain themselves after seeing Di doing all this and televising it for the masses to see.

    Personally I think on hiting the Minhaji/Tafi/Shia/Rafizi brigade where it hurts Di has done a job like no other. They've clarified Sunni beliefs and provided ample solid answers to any objections raised by the rafizis and the jackles on their payroll. All this whilest following their rules of no names etc.

    Many may not agree with the no names policy but the fact is DI do get the message across crystal clear to their following and we have to remember that following is massive and being constantly educated and trained to be solid sunnis who are able to recognise sellouts such as Irfani Mia, Neefa Rafizi, Munawar Jamati, PAQS as well as their chamche like Raja Nabeel of Coventry.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  20. Waqar786

    Waqar786 Veteran

    Imagine if one of the big deo scholar was locked up in the manner that Jalali Sahib is in solitary confinement. I have heard no books are allowed and even their medicine has been stopped, all because they are unwilling to be cowed. The deos would have caused so much commotion and the gov would have no choice to release them. Sunnis need to unite and force the Gov's hand. Don't just stop there too, drag Syed Munawwar Jammati and co into court for questioning because it is clear they are acting on an agenda.

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