New CCTV of Crane Tragedy Makkah

Discussion in 'General Topics' started by sherkhan, Oct 9, 2015.

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  1. Juwayni

    Juwayni Active Member

    Before starting a new one :)
     
  2. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    [note to self:] can you finish that book overdue since urs-e-alahazrat...?
     
    Juwayni and Unbeknown like this.
  3. Juwayni

    Juwayni Active Member

    السلام عليكم و رحمه الله و بركاته

    اللهم صلي على سيدنا محمد وعلى اله وصحبه اجمعين

    Moreover, one key difference between us and them is that they believe after they die that's it. For us, if we had the intention and tried to realize it but were unable to do so, In Sha Allah, we'll be rewarded for the intent as well as the attempt.

    Additionally, we live in a time different to others. We're presented with news of atrocities on an hourly basis, in full HD, and some folk are filled with sentiments of powerlessness. While not forgetting our brothers and sisters, it helps to try and focus our actions on things we can change rather than remaining in a state of constant lamentation for things we cannot.

    اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ الْعَفْوَ وَالْعَافِيَةَ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ،
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  4. Unbeknown

    Unbeknown Senior Moderator

    My sentiments/thoughts exactly.

    Sidi abu Hasan's replies:


    1. قَالَ عُقْبَةُ بْنُ عَامِرٍ ، قُلْتُ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ مَا النَّجَاةُ ؟ قَالَ : " أَمْلِكْ عَلَيْكَ لِسَانَكَ , وَلْيَسَعْكَ بَيْتُكَ , وَابْكِ عَلَى خَطِيئَتِكَ

    2. أَتَلُومُنِي عَلَى أَمْرٍ قَدَّرَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَيَّ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَخْلُقَنِي بِأَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَحَجَّ آدَمُ مُوسَى فَحَجَّ آدَمُ مُوسَى

    3. And this one-liner of pure wisdom: "as muslims, we know that we will be compensated in the court of Eternal Justice - and such compensation is worth dying for." Allah u Akbar.

    4. [​IMG]

    5
    . From post#13:

    obviously, things we can do should be done. and among such things is being better muslims, coming closer to Allah ta'ala, emulate the sunnah diligently. as a muslim, i believe in miracles. as a muslim, i believe in Allah and that He has Absolute Power; He can do what He Wills. so there are things beyond mere actions - look at the many tyrants of recent times and look how they were entrenched and appeared to be untouchable. they are gone. if you go back a hundred years in history, there was this huge empire - and eventually, the sun set on the empire. chengiz khan and his mongol hordes seemed unstoppable, but they disappeared except for their mention in history books.

    recall the splendour - wicked and evil, but splendour nevertheless, of the nuremberg rallies. boggles the mind, the sea of humanity and the emotional speeches of hitler (on that count modi is not even upto his shoe-shine boy - though he aspires to fill his shoes and be an indian hitler; thus trying to act on his script).

    http://tinyurl.com/o76faxb
    http://tinyurl.com/l3hmmy6

    where are they? who in germany can dare to wear a swastika or call themselves nazi today?

    [​IMG]


    -----

    Making Sense of Russian Political Ambiguities

    This is the biggest and the fatal weakness of the AngloZionist Empire: its survival depends on the colonization or destruction of every other country out there. Every independent country, whether big and powerful, or small and weak, represents an unacceptable challenge to the hegemony of the “indispensable nation” and the “chosen people”, which now try to rule over us all. This might well be the ultimate example of Hegelian dialectics at work in geopolitics: an Empire whose power generates it’s own demise. Many empires have come and gone in history, but the globalized world we live in, this dialectical contradiction is tremendously potentialized by the finite conditions in which empires have to operate.​
     
  5. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    JazakAllah for your reply. Were you planning to add more to this (since you put a [tbc] in the end)?
     
  6. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    We need to change our mentality - rather than despairing, imagine instead the reward on the day of judgement for having performed jihad in all three forms in these troubling times! And to give one's life and health in these causes, to become martyred while supporting the deen - whether it is supporting through the pen or standing up and protesting - Allah Akbar, imagine the reward!
     
    Aqib alQadri likes this.
  7. sunni_porter

    sunni_porter Well-Known Member

    On a side note, this is one of the biggest diseases (or sympton of some other disease?) in the ummah right now - we don't make effort in any matters - whether it be facing oppression and tyranny, combating social evils, or learning and spreading deen.

    For example:

    Tyranny - how many of us organize and take part in protesting and combating tyranny? e.g. protest and boycott Israel:
    http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/15/israel-ship-protest.html

    Social evils - we inform our immediately family, friends and community to stay away from various evils affecting society, but how many of us actually make an effort to stop and remove the evil altogether? e.g. demand governments to ban pornography:
    http://moralityinmedia.org/

    Learning / spreading deen - learning the basics, building Sunni masaajid, etc.

    --

    I understand the discussion was focused on individuals in predicaments, but I think it can be expanded to touch on what our general mentality and approach is these days regardless of the situation one is in - most of us are asleep and waiting for someone else to do the job.
     
  8. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I probably lurch more towards despair. Only power that collapsed in my lifetime is Soviet Union. Muslims everywhere are persecuted lot (can't think of any place where their lot has improved in last 40 years, except perhaps Turkey). For sure, coming of Imam Mahdi (radiAllahu anhu) will herald the joyous times for Muslims; but will Muslims get a breather or regain peace anytime before that? Will our suffering keep getting worse?
     
  9. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    sunnistudent has made some very valid points on crane tragedy (barring unnecessary snide comments). Hajj mubarak ho! Your first-hand account of Mina tragedy would be welcome.
     
  10. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    That was Abu hasan's answer!

    I wrote the Urdu version and not the Arabic one. Thank you for the correction.
     
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    alf laylah, not alif.
     
  12. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    good question. i won't pretend that i have the definitive answer; but these are things that i tell myself.

    as RasulAllah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam said: كُلُّ عَامِلٍ مُيَسَّرٌ لِعَمَلِهِ one who can act, things are made easy for him to do.

    those who can confront tyranny, who have the means and have the courage and numbers should do so. and those who cannot, should best manage. imagine that you are waylaid by a bunch of hoodlums; you can confront them and fight them outnumbered 5 to 1 - or either comply (saving your life) or flee (for dear life). if you are an average person facing heavily built thugs - or if one of the thugs is carrying a gun, it is utter foolishness to fight. discretion is the better part of valour.

    but if you are a policeman with a couple of guns - and trained to draw and shoot fast, it would be cowardice to surrender without a fight. in this case, fighting is made easy for you.

    obviously, things we can do should be done. and among such things is being better muslims, coming closer to Allah ta'ala, emulate the sunnah diligently. as a muslim, i believe in miracles. as a muslim, i believe in Allah and that He has Absolute Power; He can do what He Wills. so there are things beyond mere actions - look at the many tyrants of recent times and look how they were entrenched and appeared to be untouchable. they are gone. if you go back a hundred years in history, there was this huge empire - and eventually, the sun set on the empire. chengiz khan and his mongol hordes seemed unstoppable, but they disappeared except for their mention in history books.

    recall the splendour - wicked and evil, but splendour nevertheless, of the nuremberg rallies. boggles the mind, the sea of humanity and the emotional speeches of hitler (on that count modi is not even upto his shoe-shine boy - though he aspires to fill his shoes and be an indian hitler; thus trying to act on his script).

    http://tinyurl.com/o76faxb
    http://tinyurl.com/l3hmmy6

    where are they? who in germany can dare to wear a swastika or call themselves nazi today?

    [​IMG]

    [tbc]
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2015
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  13. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    If it would have been you ( abu hasan) I would have openly said your name.

    Before I answer your Alif laila arguments tell me, what makes you think that I was commenting on your posts? Where did I say that it was abu hasan who said this? Why do you think that you are so special that I need to reply or refute your every crap comment? Now bring a evidence to support your claim. Don't mess it like you have been doing in the past.( making claims without proof)

    Recall, when you said that your being forum admin does not mean you read and monitor every thread. You also said that you do not represent every one the forum (something to this meaning). Now what do you mean by "us"? Or finally you are acting as the forum admin?

    I hope you will answer these simple questions and go through posts in the other thread discussing crane collapse.
     
  14. Wadood

    Wadood Veteran

    sorry, emotions took over. i should be a man, strong with courage.

    i should have sabr facing "any" kind of adversity; when will i get this ? this world's worth is less than a mosquito's wing; not worth the revenge; save yourself before death; bodies are meant to perish either instantly or over time; its the same thing; a matter of perception really; Dajjal will be worst; what matters is the truth, the wisdom that the Qur'an Kareem has taught me about practical life
     
  15. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    not us. but then, you are a champion in burning strawmen, so it is quite expected.

    hmm. i didn't notice. who is that?

    of course, not everybody is a party to the parleys and knows all the issues inside out. it is just the newspapers - and no one (outside the clique of the ruling elite) knows for sure what is really happening; besides we are not experts on foreign policy and current affairs. we do comment on some things which are patently obvious, but otherwise, this is a time of holding our tongues and staying back:

    قَالَ عُقْبَةُ بْنُ عَامِرٍ ، قُلْتُ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ مَا النَّجَاةُ ؟ قَالَ : " أَمْلِكْ عَلَيْكَ لِسَانَكَ , وَلْيَسَعْكَ بَيْتُكَ , وَابْكِ عَلَى خَطِيئَتِكَ

    ----
    you haven't understood my argument. i did not say that you should write a qasidah for saudi govt. or send a part of your salary to binladen group. all i said was, why the unending alassing?

    muddayi laakh pe bhari hai gawahi teri. [please note that this line was directed at our forum member.]

    أَتَلُومُنِي عَلَى أَمْرٍ قَدَّرَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَيَّ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَخْلُقَنِي بِأَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَحَجَّ آدَمُ مُوسَى فَحَجَّ آدَمُ مُوسَى

    ----
    who and where?

    ----
    again, who is preventing criticism?

    ----
    what else do you want?

    ----
    did i say that you should rejoice? all i said was wailing and constant whining after a tragedy is not the da'ab of muslimin.

    ----
    what makes you think that nobody understands this except you?

    you are not supposed to ponder over destiny; but when that which is destined occurs, you can behave according to your own whims, OR accept the destined and say as your Lord taught you to say:

    [​IMG]


    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2015
  16. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    I take your point. I am not quibbling about destiny lest I cross the line.

    I am genuinely wondering how should Muslims reconcile destiny with need to make effort. Imagine a Muslim is faced with tyranny (which could range from more benign tyranny of culture/thought to extreme of physical persecution). Should a Muslim accept this tyranny as his fate or should he confront tyranny (in all or one of 3 forms, from jihad to speaking out to considering it evil)?

    What would you advise an oppressed? Should a Palestinian accept his situation in Israel as his fate or should he wage jihad? Since he is so hopelessly out-resourced to even register a fight, should he just slink out of Palestine? Not in his lifetime can he hope for freedom. [substitute Palestinian with Uighur in Xinkiang, Rohingya in Myanmar or anyone else, the question remains the same]

    AlHamduLiLLah, I and you are not faced with such trial; but I often wonder what should a Muslim's approach be when faced with tyranny.


    ------

    When mongol hordes attacked Persia, Shaykh Najm al-Dīn Dāya al-Rāzī (alayhir rahma), author of the masterpiece, Mirsad al-Ibad and disciple of Shaykh Najm al-Dīn Kubrā (alayhir rahma), fled Khwārazm due to Shaykh Kubrā’s prophecy of mongol invasion, then fled Rey and Hamadan leaving behind his family to face death at the hand of invaders. Hamid Algar, the shi'i translator of Mirsad (The Path of God's Bondsmen: From Origin to Return), naively condemns Dāya's abandonment of his family. But for Dāya, his family's fate was sealed after his Shaykh's prophecy. Dāya didn't stay back to oppose qadr.

    What should lesser folks like us (without that level of spiritual attainment and benefit of foresight) do when faced with such situations?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2015
  17. sunnistudent

    sunnistudent Veteran

    There are people who love to support Saudi Kingdom. Start a thread about Saudi inhuman attack on Yemen and how Saudi took help of UK to cancel a demand in UN against an inquiry about Saudi attack on Yemen, we will find many forum members quietly ignoring that thread. But the same people will give every excuse to support Saudi regime!

    I was present in Masjid al Haram a few minutes before the crane tragedy occurred. Strong wind was witnessed 2 days before the incidence. The weather department had issued rough weather warning two days prior to the accident.

    Why was heavy weather precaution not implemented? Why were the cranes not lashed/ secured , as is required as per heavy weather check list? All those who have worked in safety/ engineering company know about heavy weather precautions.

    We don't have to bring qada and qdar into this otherwise we will end up at Hazrat Adam alayhis salam eating fruit from that forbidden plant.

    Allah has given us wisdom and intellect and has ordered us to use it. Justifying human lapse and negligence to qada and qadar shows that people need to understand these matters.

    Indeed, those who died in crane tragedy are shaheed, as per the hadith of the prophet sal allahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam. But this should not prevent people from criticizing those who did not follow the procedures properly. Unless these mistakes are realized such incidence are prone to occur. As per the inquiry committee , Bin laden company ( which is looking after crane and construction) was found responsible , though without criminal intent , for the incidence. Heavy compensation has been declared to the family of the martyrs.

    The wahabi kingdom did not say that one should rejoice since these people are martyrs now and the negligence of Bin Laden company was destined to occur!

    The matter is simple to understand. Qadar and qadar is destined, but we do not know what is in the destiny. Hence we are ordered to follow the commands of shariah and not to ponder over destiny. Shariah commands us to use our brain, resources and intellect. That is what we are supposed to do.

    In sha Allah, will write about Mina tragedy in the other thread. I was staying in the next street where Mina stampede occurred.
     
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    @sherkhan
    brother, there are two aspects here. first is the issue of mu'amalat - yes, they should conduct an inquiry and take steps to avoid such mishaps in the future. the second is of lamenting the dead, and expressing anguish and feeling empty at the loss.

    as muslims, we know that we will be compensated in the court of Eternal Justice - and such compensation is worth dying for.

    wa lillahi'l Hamd.
     
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  19. AbdalQadir

    AbdalQadir time to move along! will check pm's.

    deen is LIVING REAL life.

    what abu Hasan has said is about PRACTICAL IMPLEMENTATION & APPLICATION in real life.

    we are Muslims.

    a major difference between us and kafirs is that we LIVE by Quran & Sunnah (even though not as we SHOULD be doing, like our pious predecessors did) while they are hypocrites even by the standards of the cheap words they utter, which are just meant for book shelves and "intellectual" conversations over drinks or coffee.
     
  20. sherkhan

    sherkhan Veteran

    Will those who were inadvertently responsible for it through negligence and incompetence (if not in this case, then definitely in case of Mina stampede) not be questioned on the Day of Judgement? Allah (azza wa'jal) knows the best. If the guilty could be questioned on that Day, why can't we have an inquest on the systemic failure in this world? If nobody blames the failure on the part of the authority, they will never be shaken out of complacency and these tragedies will recur with alarming frequency.

    True, we shouldn't blame the destiny, but we need not hold back on blaming those who failed.
     

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