on contagious diseases - fallacies and rebuttals

Discussion in 'Hadith' started by SaadSohail, Aug 6, 2020.

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  1. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member

    Expanding further on the Previous Post #92.

    I will be touching briefly on a number of diseases with delayed effects with history of PRIOR EXPOSURE,
    where personal responsibility of people come into play.


    3) Tetanus:

    Tetanus is an infection characterized by a state of generalized hypertonia that manifests in the form of painful muscle spasms of the jaw and neck.The disease most commonly occurs in those who are not vaccinated or in the elderly with waning immunity.

    Most common source of infection is a wound that is often trivial and may go unnoticed, such as a minor laceration from wood or metal splinters or thorns.

    The incubation period can last from one to 60 days but is, on average, around 7 to 10 days. (DELAYED effect)

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/tetanus/


    The WHO estimates worldwide tetanus deaths in 1997 at around 275,000 with improved rates in 2011 at 14,132 cases. However, of these cases, the prevalence of tetanus is still disproportionately higher (some studies showing 135 times higher) in low-resource settings than rates in developed countries, with mortality rates of 20% to 45% with the infection. Mortality rates vary based on the availability of resources, notably mechanical ventilation, invasive blood pressure monitoring, and early treatment.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK459217/
    ______
    In developed Country US*.

    Cases reported of Tetanus in 2019 and 2018: ZERO
    In 2017: 33

    In 2016: 34


    CDC notes: Today, tetanus is uncommon in the United States, with an average of about 30 reported cases each year. Nearly all cases of tetanus are among people who did not get all the recommended tetanus vaccinations. This includes people who have never received a tetanus vaccine and adults who don’t stay up to date on their 10-year booster shots.

    https://www.cdc.gov/tetanus/about/index.html

    In Pakistan*:
    Cases reported of Tetanus in 2019: 509
    In 2018: ZERO. (Not reported likely).
    In 2017: 478
    In 2016: 667

    *Source of cases reported:
    https://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/globalsummary/timeseries/tsincidencettetanus.html

    Reason for disparity:

    Pakistan is one of the 34 countries that have not achieved the neonatal tetanus (NT) global elimination target set by the World Health Organization (WHO). It is one of the most underreported diseases and remains a major but preventable cause of neonatal and infant mortality in many developing countries.
    Various literatures reveal that TT vaccination coverage in Pakistan ranged from 60% to 74% over the last decade. Low vaccination coverage, the main driver for NT in Pakistan, is due to many factors, including demand failure for TT vaccine resulting from inadequate knowledge of TT vaccine among reproductive age females and inadequate information about the benefits of TT provided by health care workers and the media. Other factors linked to low vaccination coverage include residing in rural areas, lack of formal education, poor knowledge about place and time to get vaccinated, and lack of awareness about the importance of vaccination.


    Tetanus can be prevented by the administration of tetanus toxoid, which induces specific antitoxins. To prevent maternal and neonatal tetanus, appropriate doses of tetanus toxoid need to be given to the mother before or during pregnancy, and clean delivery and cord care practices need to be ensured.

    http://www.epi.gov.pk/vaccine-preventable-diseases/tetanus/

    _________________________________

    4)Tuberculosis:

    ONSET:
    Mode of transmission:
    TB bacteria are spread through the air from one person to another.
    Latent: Persons with latent TB infection do not feel sick and do not have any symptoms. They are infected with M. tuberculosis, but do not have TB disease. The only sign of TB infection is a positive reaction to the tuberculin skin test or TB blood test. Persons with latent TB infection are not infectious and cannot spread TB infection to others.
    Overall, without treatment, about 5 to 10% of infected persons will develop TB disease at some time in their lives. About half of those people who develop TB will do so within the first two years of infection. For persons whose immune systems are weak, especially those with HIV infection, the risk of developing TB disease is considerably higher than for persons with normal immune systems.
    Persons with TB disease are considered infectious and may spread TB bacteria to others. If TB disease is suspected, persons should be referred for a complete medical evaluation. If it is determined that a person has TB disease, therapy is given to treat it. TB disease is a serious condition and can lead to death if not treated.

    https://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/general/ltbiandactivetb.htm

    Trend of Tuberculosis in developed country: UNITED STATES over the years:

    In 2018, a total of 9,025 TB cases were reported in the United States. This represents a 0.7% decrease from 2017.
    In 2017, the most recent data available, 515 deaths in the United States were attributed to TB. This is a decrease from 528 deaths attributed to TB in 2016.

    Totals-Cases-Graph.jpg





    https://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/statistics/tbtrends.htm


    Trend of Tuberculosis in developing country, PAKISTAN:

    trend Pakistan.jpg

    TB is highly epidemic in Pakistan. According to the latest WHO estimations, the incidence, prevalence and mortality of TB in Pakistan are 230 per 100 000, 310 per 100 000 and 39 per 100 000, respectively. This indicates 410 000 incident cases of TB and 69 000 TB deaths in Pakistan every year. Pakistan is the sixth highest TB burden country in the world and by far the largest among the 22 countries of WHO’s Eastern Mediterranean Region.

    https://www.emro.who.int/emhj-volume-16-2010/volume-16-supplement/article-06.html

    A total of 369,548 people were notified as having TB in 2018. An estimated 44,000 HIV negative people die from TB disease in Pakistan each year

    https://tbfacts.org/tb-pakistan/

    Incidence of Multidrug-resistant Tuberculosis in Sindh, Pakistan
    The frequency of MDR-TB patients being treated with first-line ATT was 40.2% (68/169). Among these cases of MDR-TB, there were 36 (53%) men and 32 (47%) women. The growing drug resistance of M. tuberculosis is a problem in Pakistan.


    Previous TB history, a history of multiple antituberculosis therapy (ATT) courses, prescriptions from multiple clinicians, unsupervised general practitioner management, age <45 years, male gender, immigration from another area with TB endemic/resistant strains, unemployment, and below satisfactory living conditions were associated with an increased risk of developing MDR-TB. Patients with evidence of the failure of the first-line ATT, patients who defaulted appointments, and patients who relapsed during the treatment are also at a high risk of developing MDR-TB.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6605965/

    Why the discrepancy?
    1)Lack of education in Pakistan.
    2)Lack of trust in doctors due to limiting beliefs.
    3)Patients usually think they know "better" than the doctors and rely on Gharolu totkay or Hakeem.
    4)Poor compliance to anti-tuberculous drugs again due to lack of trust at the end of the patients or lack of better counselling by the doctors. ****
    5)Poverty, they are compelled to stay along with the patient in the same room because they cannot afford better accomodaton.
    People with TB disease are most likely to spread it to people they spend time with every day. This includes family members, friends, and coworkers or schoolmates.
    6)Patients failure to comply with doctor's instructions.

    More on precautionary measures pertaining to tuberculosis. More on this by WHO.


    Here's is an important survery conducted to access the perception of tuberculosis in Pakistan, in which Around 1817 (73%) respondents said that TB is a contagious disease, 447 (18%) said it is not contagious, and 212 (9%) did not know about contagiousness of TB.

    The government of Pakistan even launched DOT program in colloboration with WHO. DOT=directly observed therapy where doctors ensure that patients arrive at the clinic and take their medications on time. But poor compliance and failure to abide by the treatment protocol ARE STILL unfortunately HIGH.

    Nevertheless, the Pakistan National Tuberculosis Programme (NTP) has achieved a remarkable and steady improvement in numbers of TB cases detected, from 11 050 in 2000 to 248 115 in 2008, and treatment success rates reached 91% in 2007. This has been achieved through extraordinary commitment and financial inputs by the Government and health development partners, providing support for strategic and infrastructure improvements by the NTP.

    The World Health Organization (WHO) Directly Observed Treatment Short-course (DOTS) strategy for TB was adopted and piloted in Pakistan from 1995 onwards, but major progress in TB control was only achieved after the revival of the NTP in 2001 when TB had been declared a national public health emergency through the “Islamabad Declaration”.

    http://www.emro.who.int/emhj-volume-16-2010/volume-16-supplement/article-06.html

    I think this one is evident enough and one would understand where responsibility of government, doctors, patients and people come into play.

    More to come in sha Allah.


     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
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  2. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member

    So this post is going to be very BIG but it addresses a fundamental point being raised again and again and I believe is the MAIN point of this discussion. I believe, being a doctor, I haven't tackled this issue WELL-ENOUGH, like I should have.
    ______________________________
    Quoting Brother Faqir:


    ______________________________

    1) HIV/AIDS:

    Disease (AIDS) onset: 10-20 years. (DELAYED EFFECT).
    In the early years, patient is asymptomatic despite harbouring HIV.

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/hiv-and-aids/symptoms/

    Mode of transmission:
    Intercourse with infected partner, sharing needles, blood transfusions, e.t.c

    https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/basics/transmission.html

    Preventative measures: Donot share syringes, screen blood*, use protection e.t.c.

    https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/basics/prevention.html

    It is observed that doing a certain activity is correlated with "INCREASED" incidence of an incurable disease in patients such as sharing the same needles.

    No known cases of individuals being infected with HIV "without" exposure or without a prior correlating event.
    (But it is not rationally impossible in the mind's eye).

    IN DEVELOPED COUNTRY LIKE USA

    "The risk for acquiring HIV infection through blood transfusion today is estimated conservatively to be one in 1.5 million, based on 2007--2008 data."

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5941a3.htm


    In extremely rare cases, HIV has been transmitted by

    Receiving blood transfusions, blood products, or organ/tissue transplants that are contaminated with HIV. This was more common in the early years of HIV, but now the risk is extremely small because of rigorous testing of the US blood supply and donated organs and tissues.


    (https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/basics/transmission.html)

    Previously:


    In the early 1980s, blood became a vector for HIV infection and transmitted a fatal illness to approximately half of the 16,000 hemophiliacs in the United States and to over 12,000 blood transfusion recipients (CDC, MMWR, July 1993).

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK232413/


    IN DEVELOPING COUNTRY LIKE PAKISTAN:


    Between April-July 2019, 31,239 individuals underwent HIV testing of whom 930 tested HIV-positive. Of these,763 (82·0%)34 were aged <16years....Most children (89·2%, 404/453) reported multiple previous injections and 40/453 (8·8%) reported blood transfusions

    https://researchonline.lshtm.ac.uk/id/eprint/4654958/7/Manuscript_submitted.pdf

    ^If a doctor is injecting the same syrine to multiple patients, he is responsible.

    ^If a hospital is transfusing blood without proper screening, those involved are responsible.

    ___________________________________

    2) PREGNANCY & DEATH


    Quoting brother Faqir:

    TWO kinds of fallacies are very obvious in your posts:

    1)Muddying the waters:
    To introduce something, typically information, to an issue or situation that makes it less clear or more confusing.

    2) Gish Gallop:
    The Gish gallop is a technique used during debating that focuses on overwhelming an opponent with as many arguments as possible, without regard for accuracy or strength of the arguments.

    I will be addressing this very quote of yours "AGAIN" and I will use this very contention of yours to form a premise of my argument.


    https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/maternal-mortality

    The high number of maternal deaths in some areas of the world reflects inequalities in access to quality health services and highlights the gap between rich and poor. The MMR in low income countries in 2017 is 462 per 100 000 live births versus 11 per 100 000 live births in high income countries.

    BUT THIS WASN'T ALWAYS THE CASE:


    maternal-mortality.png

    MMR COMPARISON by country:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_maternal_mortality_ratio

    Why do you think is the reason for higher number of mortality rates of pregnant women in Developing countries?

    Now you could say: It is the Will of Allah (swt).

    And I would respond: I agree.

    But what is the difference between developed and developing country when it comes to strategies being implemented while catering pregnant woman?

    And this is the "VERY" angle which I will use, to show where "responsibility" comes into play.

    Major Causes of Death in the Community
    In the community 78.1% of the deaths were due to direct causes and 21 .9% to indirect causes. Hemorrhage was responsible for over half the deaths i.e. 52.9%. The second most common cause was Sepsis (16.3%) followed by Eclampsia (14.4%) and Obstructed labor (6.5%.) Abortion caused 5.2% of the deaths. Among the Indirect causes Hepatitis was the most common (14%) followed by Heart disease 9.3%.

    A Study of Mothers Brought Dead to JPMC
    A study was carried out at JPMC to establish the factors that caused delay in women reaching hospital in time. This showed that during a twelve year period 1981 -1992 a total of 601 maternal deaths were seen in the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology. Of these 150 (25%) women were brought dead. The reasons for delay were economic, like non-availability of transport and lack of finances (3 6%), soclo-cultural factors including absence of husband from home (34%), inadequate and inefficient maternal health services (2 1%). In 9% the reason for delay could not be determined.
    The most common cause of death amongst these 150 women was haemorrhage (63% of which 42% were postpartum haemorrhage) followed by eclampsia (19.3%) ruptured uterus (9.3%) and acute inversion of uterus (6%.).

    https://jpma.org.pk/article-details/2474
    _________
    Findings of the Pakistan Demographic and Health Survey (2007) show that only 39percent of the deliveries in Pakistan were attended by skilled birth attendants: 34 percent of these deliveries took place at a health facility, while only 5 percent of pregnant women could utilize the services of skilled birth attendants (SBAs) in their homes (NIPS 2007). This underscores the fact that a majority of births occur at home attended by untrained traditional birth attendants (dais).

    http://paiman.jsi.com/Resources/Docs/paiman-initial-assessment-midwives.pdf
    ________

    1)
    If the government individuals have promised that they would improve delivery of maternal services to the rural areas but it was just a ploy to gain votes, they are RESPONSIBLE.
    2)
    If an unskilled worker poses herself as a SKILLED AND TRAINED individual to earn some money and the poor pregnant woman ends up dying, the lady health worker is responsible.
    3) If the husband is counselled by a doctor, that there is risk involved in the delivery since she is HAVING SIEZURES (a condition known as ECLAMPSIA secondary to high blood pressure), and that she needs to get admitted.

    BUT the husband fails to listen to the advice of a doctor because he thinks that his wife needs to practise patience based on his faulty interpretation* of Hadith literature*, then he is responsible.

    ***FAULTY INTERPRETATION:

    This comes from "FALSELY EQUIVATING" Epilepsy with Eclampsia although the symptoms (which ARE uncontrollable FITS) APPEAR SIMILAR TO AN UNTRAINED EYE.


    ***HADITH:
    Prophet ﷺ (peace be upon him said): If you have patience (with tawaqqul) for you is Paradise, that is better, or if you wish, I will supplicate for you to be cured. She asked to have patience over her illness but asked that her awrah be protected under her epilepsy, for which the Prophet ﷺ prayed for it to be covered.

    This hadith is means of comfort to those individuals suffering from epilepsy. THERE'S NO CURE OF EPILEPSY.
    https://www.healthline.com/health/epilepsy

    4) Post-partum infections:
    It develops within six weeks of delivery, it is called postpartum sepsis or puerperal sepsis. Puerperal sepsis is defined as the infection of the genital tract occurring at labour or within 42 days of the postpartum period. The puerperal sepsis/pyrexia presents commonly with fever and other symptoms like pelvic pain, foul smelling vaginal discharge and delayed reduction of the uterine size. (DELAYED EFFECT)


    This was an observational prospective Cohort study conducted from January 2011 to December 2011 at the Obstetrics and Gynaecology Department Liaquat University of Medical & Health Sciences Jamshoro/Hyderabad, Sindh Pakistan.


    In this study most of the cases were referral from outside 95 (73.64%), and had UN necessary labour induction 52 (41.3%) with improper sterilization by UN skilled personals this can be the reasons for their infective morbidities. Majority of these women 108 (83.72%) were having prolonged rupture of membranes at the time of admission, in these women second stage of labour was prolonged so the rate of second stage intervention by emergency Caesarean section 29 (22.48%) as well as by instrumental delivery was high 22 (17.05%)

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3817780/

    https://www.hey.nhs.uk/patient-leaflet/15544/


    (More to come in sha Allah).


     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
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  3. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member

    Asalamu Alaikum brothers,
    Got really busy!
    So starting off where I left from IN sha Allah.
    Before I begin let me cite a couple of hadith to illustrate a point
    (I believe this is the crux of this matter):

    Hadith #1:

    Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri and Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "No fatigue, nor disease, nor sorrow, nor sadness, nor hurt, nor distress befalls a Muslim, even if it were the prick he receives from a thorn, but that Allah expiates some of his sins for that."

    Sahih al-Bukhari 5641, 5642
    In-book reference : Book 75, Hadith 2
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 7, Book 70, Hadith 545



    Hadith #2:

    Abu Hurayra reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "A man came across a thorn in the road and said, 'I will remove this thorn so that it does not harm a Muslim man.' For that reason he was forgiven."

    : Al-Adab Al-Mufrad 229
    In-book reference : Book 11, Hadith 9
    English translation : Book 11, Hadith 229



    Let's have a look at this comment from brother Faqir:

    "Additionally, I mentioned in my previous posts, how sickness and covid / or plague is “EXCLUSIVELY” a mercy for the believers an expiation from sin, and then if I am an agent in spreading this “MERCY” why are you disheartened?"

    The following can be understood from such a comment.
    1)It is failure to reconcile "Hadith #1" with "Hadith #2".

    2)It also comes from a narrow world view to interpret hadith literature according to one's preconcieved notions that one already holds to be true.
    3)Last but not the least it also comes from failure to understand how one's interpretation of hadith fits into a broader scheme of things i.e. the general interpretation of whole of hadith corpus & our reality.

    If it is said:
    You are committing false analogy fallacy by comparing a thorn to that of a disease.

    It will be said to him:
    This is a side-track. Your main point of contention is that "you are agent in the spreading the mercy" (and being stricken with a disease or a thorn is mercy for a believer) therefore it makes equal sense, according to your principles, to "not" remove that thorn from that road, in fact to place it on the road because being striken with it is at the end of the day, a mercy for a believer. And you are merely an agent in spreading it.
    Going by your principles, you will not be held responsible.

    If it is said:
    The effects of a thorn are immediate therefore a believer should remove the thorn, and the effects of a disease manifest unpredictably and therefore you are responsible for the former and NOT in the latter.

    It will be said to him:
    Is the effect of a thorn a mercy for a believer?
    If you say "No" that is denial of hadith.
    If you say "Yes", then your statement "a believer should remove the thorn" contradicts the former statement " I am an agent in spreading this “MERCY” why are you disheartened?"

    The statement is rendered meaningless and NOT the point of contention of this VERY THREAD.

    ^Therefore your raising of this point or tackling from this very angle of "mercy" doesnot evade you of the responsibility of putting yourself or lives of other people in danger.

    Finally, one couldn't help but think about the dangers such an individual could pose to himself or those around him.

    May Allah (swt) guide us.

    I will continue to address the rest of the posts very soon in sha Allah. I apologize for the delay.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
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  4. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    Don't worry brother I appreciate your criticism, and arguments, and I don't mean to call those points ad hominems, I meant the sprinkling of insults throughout those criticisms ;) .It will be fruitful for me in the end regardless as I may learn new things :). Rest assured this wasn't a waste of time, at least for me since (I'll take your advice and read those books).

    I won't reply until you have have fully addressed all the points. May Allah give you the tawfiq to do so.
     
  5. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member

    Have patience.
    And meanwhile while you are at it; try reading a bit on:


    Logical fallacies:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14355445-logically-fallacious

    https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/30643722-mastering-logical-fallacies

    ___________________________________________________________________
    P.S calling out on Incorrect interpretation of data, pointing out where the misrepresentation of information has taken place, pointing out the sleight of hand the opponent uses to build his case over under an "alleged" article the information of which essentially self-refutes the original claim of the opponent, pointing out the absurd and/or non-sequitor inferences in the opponent's argument, calling out on the fact of how ignorant the opponent is of "medical" science and taking the hadith out of their original context and the apparant denial of "observed" phenomena, pointing out the fact that opponent makes claim about medical science which are at best unsubstantiated and lie in direct contradiction to what has been observed AND calling out on the fact that the opponent hasn't bothered to verify his claims is NOT an adhominem. ;)

    At the very least i expect the people i am conversing with to "know" these things. Otherwise, it is a just matter of debating for the sake of debating. A total waste of time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  6. FaqirHaider

    FaqirHaider اللَه المقدر والعالم شؤون لا تكثر لهمك ما قدر يكون

    Edit: 0.08%, 1.3%
    I had forgotten to multiple by 100 : In case you you wish to take another ad hominen jab ;), feel free regardless.
     
  7. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member


    Let's define slippery slope fallacy:

    In a slippery slope argument, a course of action is rejected because, with little or no evidence, one insists that it will lead to a chain reaction resulting in an undesirable end or ends. The slippery slope involves an acceptance of a succession of events without direct evidence that this course of events will happen.

    So your claim that i am committing a slippery slope fallacy is rejected because you haven't bothered to substantiate your claim.

    Not only that, you have a really convoluted (fallacious) way of thinking:

    Approximately 529,000 women die from pregnancy-related causes annually and almost all (99%) of these maternal deaths occur in developing nations.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2505173/


    In other words, you are "straw-manning" me and bringing a false analogy on the table. I talk about apples and you bring oranges.

    The comparison

    1)First majority of pregnant women DONOT die from pregnanacies.
    2)Secondly, majority of pregnancies ARE UNREMARKABLE (without complications).
    3)No known correlating factors which husbands could undertake as a preventative precaution which is linked with "reduced" complication rates of delivery and pregnancy have ever been found.
    ___________________________________________
    Compare the above with:
    1)Majority of people with COVID19 develop symptoms following exposure.
    2)Some develop moderate symptoms and require hospitalization and even ventilation and then recover.
    3)Some develop severe symptoms and require ventilation.
    4) Majority would recover.
    5)Known correlating factors are found such as social distancing, wearing masks, or washing hands with soap which are linked with reduced spread compared to those who don't practise precautionary measures.

    So you see you are making bogus argument which doesn't stand its ground. It is not only a straw-man but a false analogy as well.

    It doesn't take one to be a doctor to understand preventative" measures such as social distancing and wearing masks are linked with lesser infection rates compared to those who don't adopt such measures.

    Where as no such correlating factors ARE KNOWN and proven for which husbands need to take precautionary measures which are linked with reduced complications rate in pregnant women.


    Since you are too intellectually "dormant" to understand this all.

    Let me give you a better example:

    A husband is a known alcoholic and he forces his pregnant wife to drink alcohal with him. Now alcohal consumption is correlated with "fetal alcohal syndrome."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK448178/

    This syndrome is not something which happen with "immediate effect" following consumption of alcohal. It happens following chronic exposure...
    This is a good example because it matches what WE ARE talking about. This is where the "husband" is repsonsible.

    Or the HIV example given in the previous post reflects the scenario in a much better way (POST #86). This is where the doctor is responsible where he is using the same syringe for each of his patient.


    How about another example? I love giving examples:

    This incident happened with me in a clinical setting at a hospital.

    I counselled a guy who a child with CKD (chronic kidney disease). The guy was adamant and he didnot want his child to undergo dialysis. Doctors came and went trying to consel him. And i noticed something. All those doctors spent about 2-3 minutes with him and when they noticed that the guy remained unconvinced they signed the papers saying "father not convinced and walked away". I took the father to my room (doctor's room) and conselled him. It took me 2 hours to counsel him. And he agreed.

    Kidneys donot function in CKD patients or they have a very minimal function. This person was of the view that without dialysis his son was still making urine so it is sufficient.

    Now urea in blood doesn't build over night. (it can in some situations). The uremic condition is linked with coma and death without dialysis.

    We did the dialysis and his son was fine (by the will of Allah). But the moment i left the ward after a few weeks, his father denied treatment for his son. And in the next 5 days he died.
    There were no immediate effects. Not all patients with CKD require dialysis as well.


    Your post is as clear as a day. It needs no TAWIL of its own.

    I think giving a balanced verdict should be taken, personally I have mingled with the infected , a family friend lost someone to the virus, I visited their house for condolences (apparently all but one person was positive), the gave me gloves, but that was maybe 10 minutes after, I talked and hugged one of the brothers (who was convinced he was false negative since everyone else was positive), neither me or anyone in my family were infected (through me), and this was a month ago, similarly my brother who hung out with his friend whose family too were infected, yet nothing happened to us Alhamdulillah.



    It is indeed very stange that your so called "dismantling" is not only working against you but proving beyond a reasonable doubt how ignorant and stubborn you really are.

    What is strange is that all this while, you didnot actually bothered to sit straight and do your research.
    _________________________________________________________________________



    HOW did you jump from cure from taking medicine is Optional to taking precautionary measures is OPTIONAL when:

    Anas bin Malik narrated that a man said:
    "O Messenger of Allah! Shall I tie it and rely(upon Allah), or leave it loose and rely(upon Allah)?" He said: "Tie it and rely(upon Allah)."

    What you fail to understand is the Quran and hadith corpus needs to be understand "wholly". Not taking individual ahadith to suit your own "twisted" notions of responsibility.

    Any person could use the hadith to suit his preconcieved notions, and astonishingly you are quite apt at.
    The only problem is that your whole argument lacks a "rational" foundation. You do not understand Predestination and niether do you understand the concept of responsibility. Not only that ,what you think you understand about "medical science" is also dubious at best.


    What you are good at is taking isolated hadith to prove a point of yours that it is not required to take precautionary measures YET surprisingly you have affirmed responsibility for a person who is a diabetic with bad habits all the while not realizing that none of what he does is associated with immediate "complications" (or effects as you seem to put it).


    Talk about apples and you will have oranges. BTW the answer is within the very hadith that you gave here. Look again.

    Agreed. When did i suggest otherwise? I must say your love for logical fallacies is very obvious in your posts. (Hint: "red-herring".)


    Says someone who brings an article, all in a rather shoddy attempt to prove that what he did was "right".And doesnot even bother to read that what the article claims is in direct oppositon to his claim. And such an individual then has the audacity to talk about how pious the other individual is especially when he makes the following claim:



    Dishearted? Of course not.
    Ashamed? YES. Of how "ignorant" you really are of Islam, The concept of QADR and the modern science.

    By your definitions the doctor who uses the same hypodermic needles for the same patients can say that he is spreading MERCY (in the form of HIV) and that he is not responsible.

    It is true that disease is a mercy for the believers as it sheds SINS BUT that doesn't mean a person puts himself in conditions where he puts others or himself at risk.

    Red-herring. Not the point of discussion.


    Are you really that stupid? The prophet ﷺ did give glad tidings to those who are sick. No questions about that.

    But where did you pull this out from "then if I am an agent in spreading this “MERCY” why are you disheartened?"

    When did the noble prophetﷺ asked us to invite problems and trials under the pretense of Tawakul OR to put other people's lives in danger under the pretense of spreading mercy?

    حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادٌ، أَخْبَرَنَا قَتَادَةُ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَ يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنَ الْبَرَصِ وَالْجُنُونِ وَالْجُذَامِ وَمِنْ سَيِّئِ الأَسْقَامِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏

    Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 1554

    Grade: Sahih

    عَنْ أَنَسٍ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ كَانَ يَقُولُ اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِكَ مِنْ الْبَرَصِ وَالْجُنُونِ وَالْجُذَامِ وَمِنْ سَيِّئْ الْأَسْقَامِ

    1554
    سنن أبي داود كتاب الصلاة باب تفريع أبواب الوتر باب في الاستعاذة

    حَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْمَلِكِ بْنُ عَمْرٍو، حَدَّثَنَا زُهَيْرُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَمْرِو بْنِ حَلْحَلَةَ، عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ، وَعَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ مَا يُصِيبُ الْمُسْلِمَ مِنْ نَصَبٍ وَلاَ وَصَبٍ وَلاَ هَمٍّ وَلاَ حُزْنٍ وَلاَ أَذًى وَلاَ غَمٍّ حَتَّى الشَّوْكَةِ يُشَاكُهَا، إِلاَّ كَفَّرَ اللَّهُ بِهَا مِنْ خَطَايَاهُ ‏"‏‏.‏
    (Sahih al-Bukhari 5641, 5642)

    The prophet ﷺdid both. He taught us the dua to seek refuge of Allah from illnesses yet at the same time to seek cure when you are sick and/or be patient as it sheds the sins of the believers.

    Your failure comes from your inability to reconcile the hadith with your twisted notions of predestination and responsibility.

    It is a mercy from Allah when you get infected. That doesn't mean you start putting lives of other peoples at risk under the false pretense that you are spreading "mercy".


    Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri and Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "No fatigue, nor disease, nor sorrow, nor sadness, nor hurt, nor distress befalls a Muslim, even if it were the prick he receives from a thorn, but that Allah expiates some of his sins for that."

    According to your twisted logic: a believer should start intentionally stricking his feet "repeatedly" on a thorn because it would then lead to expiation of sins. Subhan Allah.

    Or one should start placing thorns in the paths of believers BECAUSE it would (by the will of Allah) be a means of removal of their sins.

    What can be said about a person who does this?

    And Guidance alone is from Allah.

    P.S i would be writing the response to the rest of the posts in due time. In sha Allah.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  8. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member


    Isn't this whole conversation revolving around personal responsibility?

    It doesn't take much for an individual (a person who is NOT intellectually handicapped) to understand the nonsense of your implication here.

    Your underlying assumption that if the "immediate effect" is NOT THERE and there is no 90-99% aquisition therefore by default the person is not responsible.

    Let me spill out the beans for you:

    The aquisition of HIV is correlated with "infected" blood transfusions and re-using hypodermic needles in the same patients. This is OBSERVED. NOT WAHM or speculation.
    What is NOT observed is a patient developing HIV without exposure. (But this is not rationally impossible. It could happen. But that isn't the NORM).

    Now a doctor in order to save some money,uses the same syringe to withdraw blood samples from a vast majority of patients.

    The ihtiat here was to use a brand new syringe each time he withdraws sample from the patients.
    But he didn't do that. He wants to save some money. And he didn't know who the HIV carrier was.

    Now the thing with HIV is that it normally takes 10-20 years to develop FULL BLOWN AIDS-an untreatable disease according to medical community. There are no immediate effects except from flu which normally develops around 3-4 weeks following exposure.
    And the newer drugs are either unavailable or beyond the means of a common man and they are NOT linked (correlated) with eradication of AIDS/HIV.

    https://aidsinfo.nih.gov/understanding-hiv-aids/fact-sheets/19/46/the-stages-of-hiv-infection

    Therefore, according to your own principles, we should stop using "new hypodermic needles" each time we withdraw a blood sample, we should stop isolating "dialysis" machines for HIV individuals and we should stop screening blood for HIVs. After all we are not responsible. Right?

    Let me ask a better question, would you allow me to inject HIV contaminated blood in your vein?
    or your father's vein?
    But my question isn't precise. So let me rephrase it for you:
    Would you allow me to inject a needle into your vein which i have been using on my patients for the last 1 month?
    After all, since I am not responsible, according to you, then why not go ahead and do it?

    Wasn't this your original contention when you stated your lack of not taking precautionary measures is in accordance with Shariah and the fact that you are not responsible?

    _______________________________________________________________________

    https://www.who.int/csr/don/03-july-2019-hiv-cases-pakistan/en/

    On 25 April 2019, the local administration in Larkana district was alerted by media reports of a surge in human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) cases among children in Ratodero Taluka, Larkana district, Sindh province, Pakistan. A screening camp was initially established at Taluka’s main hospital. Later, screening was expanded to other health facilities including selected Rural Health Centers (RHCs) and Basic Health Units (BHUs). HIV rapid test kits that were initially used were replaced with pre-qualified WHO test kits.


    From 25 April through 28 June 2019, a total of 30,192 people have been screened for HIV, of which 876 were found positive. Eighty-two per cent (719/876) of these were below the age of 15 years. During the screening, several risk factors were identified, including: unsafe intravenous injections during medical procedures; unsafe child delivery practices; unsafe practices at blood banks; poorly implemented infection control programs; and improper collection, storage, segregation and disposal of hospital waste.



    Can the doctor present an excuse here that he didn't know who the (HIV)carrier was and therefore by default he is not responsible for using the same syringe in multiple number of patients despite knowing the fact that "using the same syringe is a correlating factor of HIV transmission"?


    And guidance alone is from Allah.


    More posts will be added in due time in sha Allah.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
  9. SaadSohail

    SaadSohail Active Member


    Straw-manning.
    I Never ONCE claimed that you called the corona virus itself Wahmi. What does that statement even mean?
    These kind of (intentional or unintentional tactics) change the frame of discussion. They drift the conversation to a place which was never about the original discussion in the first place.

    I have no idea where you pulled that out from.




    How does any of what you wrote above negate the following:
    It has been observed that majority of people staying in contact with COVID19 get infected?
    It doesn’t.

    However the article you quoted isn’t about what you claim it is about. I will address that later in this post.



    You need to demonstrate for the readers; “what frame of your position” I changed. If you meant the following then there is no need. I will address that.


    Your posts have given me enough experience on not to debate those who like to talk without knowledge. IF your concern was “immediate” effect then you wouldn’t have written the following:



    What are the statistics here that you are talking about?

    You do not even know how much time a diabetic patient normally takes (with poor glycemic control) to develop gangrene of toes (following autonomic neuropathy) which ultimately leads to having the toes being "amputed" by a surgeon.


    MOREOVER,
    When i asked:
    The man doesnot mend his ways.3 months later, his toes are amputated. 6 months later his whole foot is amputated. After a year he dies from what they call a "Silent" heart attack.
    Is this person not responsible for not taking care of his health?


    You responded:
    [quoted]As stated he is responsible for his actions here, since he in in control of this affair (by will of Allah).[/quoted]

    I will repeat what i wrote earlier. You have no idea what this discussion is about in the first place.


    Really?

    The following is directly QUOTING YOU.


    You shouldn’t have inserted that “Ebola virus” fatality rate comment here. Because since you did that it is indeed a false analogy fallacy NOT A NON-SEQUITOR.

    Not only that your previous posts are riddled with “Mortality” rates (which I later addressed) when it wasn’t the point of discussion in the first place. The point of discussion was “Your responsibility” which you are STILL very keen on evading.

    Anyways this whole point of discussion pertaining to immediate effects is somewhat STILL IRRELEVANT.

    To those who didn’t understand:
    1)please see how much time it normally takes for a diabetic person with poor glycemic control (albeit linked to person’s poor eating habits or laziness in taking medicines) to develop complications such as foot gangrene.
    2)And while you are at it try researching how “better” glycemic control correlates with development of complications and/or better outcomes.


    While it is TRUE that not all humans who get in contact with the VIRUS develop the symptoms, I totally grant that.

    But that doesn’t evade the fact that majority of individuals who DO get the disease have a history of CONTACT. That is observed.This is NOT WAHM.

    It is NOT the following case:

    1) It has been observed that people staying in contact with COVID19 get infected. (50%)
    2) It has been observed that people who did not stay in contact with COVID 19 get infected as well. (50%).

    While you can Find isolated examples where people could develop COVID symptoms without PRIOR history (It is not rationally impossible) BUT that doesn’t negate the fact that majority of individuals who get infected with COVID19 are have a contact history with COVID19 patients.



    All this dumbing down of complex stuff should have been pretty “useless” had you bothered to research what I wrote (provided how much time you took to write this all).

    For example:

    The article that you quoted.
    https://www.theguardian.com/global-...irst-indigenous-case-of-coronavirus-in-amazon

    Did you even bother to read it? Let me cite the relevant stuff:

    ________________________________________________________________
    The 20-year-old from the Kokama tribe tested positive for the virus in the district of Santo Antonio do Iá, near the border with Colombia, 880km (550 miles) up the Amazon river from the state capital Manaus, Sesai said in a statement on Wednesday.

    Four cases of coronavirus have been confirmed in the same district, including a doctor who tested positive last week, raising fears the epidemic could spread to remote and vulnerable indigenous communities with devastating effect.


    Sesai said the woman was a medical worker who had been in contact with the doctor. She was the only person to test positive among 15 health workers and 12 patients tested after the doctor was found to have the virus, Sesai said. Their names were not made public.

    The doctor had returned from vacation in southern Brazil to work with the Tikunas, one of the largest tribes in the Amazon with more than 30,000 people who live in the upper Amazon near the borders with Colombia and Peru.

    The woman has not shown symptoms of Covid-19 and has been isolated with her family, Sesai said.

    Health experts warn that the spreading virus could be lethal for Brazil’s 850,000 indigenous people, who have been decimated for centuries by diseases brought by Europeans, from smallpox and malaria to the flu.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    This what you wrote:

    Now tell me isn't this a case of "intellectual dishonesty?"

    Although the article says nothing about “no known contact”, in fact it establishes the positive contact and its travel history.(The heading under the photo explicitly states this: The indigenous woman was a medical worker who had contact with an infected doctor in Brazil.)

    I still grant you that the incident happened as you claim it happened.

    So what?

    Did I for once claim that all people who get in contact with COVID19 patients develop the disease? Did i?

    What I said is, it has been observed that majority of people who get in contact with COVID19 develop the disease.

    So you are attempting to write a refutation without even bothering to read “correctly” what that article you cited is talking about in the first place?


    Define inconsistent?
    How do the majority of people getting infected from exposure to COVID19 patients sound inconsistent to you?




    Sigh.
    Does this RED-HERRING need a response?

    I think it is better that I bring a quote from your own post:

    QUOTING YOU:


    let the readers compare the two comments that you wrote above:



    1)After coming to know that “plaque” has broken out.
    2)After coming to know that “Majority of people who are COVID+ have CONTACT history”
    3)After coming to know that “That the disease takes time to develop and meanwhile a person could be what they call in scientific community as a carrier”.
    4)After coming to know that a “certain group of people develop extremely severe symptoms”



    A person goes out in the open meets with people who HE KNEW ARE COVID+ without taking precautionary measures and when pointed out talks about how he is not responsible by citing examples riddled with fallacious reasoning and totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


    Guidance alone is From Allah (swt).


    P.S i would be addressing the rest of your posts when I find time.

    Jazak Allah
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020

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