Rasulullah & Magic

Discussion in 'Seerat ar-Rasul' started by Misbah al-Hidaya, Dec 1, 2007.

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  1. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    merey piyare bhayya, do you know what a tautology is in logic? or a red herring is in istadlaal? inshAllah, see you soon.

     
  2. Abu Fadl

    Abu Fadl Banned

    Gibril Haddad says every Hadith in Bukhari Shareef is Sahih and has no weak hadith?
     
  3. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    i believe and trust in qaDi `iyaD's explanation [tatbeeq] of the problematic Hadith [mushkil al-Hadith] than you or your teachers.

    moreover, quoting imam abu bakr al-jaSSaS to stretch your rejection of a hadith from bukhari is really amusing; and shows an abject ignorance of the principles of Hadith.

    this is basic knowledge of hadith principles: a certain hadith can be similar in wording but if it is reported through an unreliable chain, it becomes unreliable. and when there is a hadith reported through a chain of trustworthy narrators, that hadith is considered SaHiH.

    but yet, there are Hadith which are reported by trustworthy narrators, but are problematic - usually, in their contradiction of some established principle or externally contradicting other hadith.

    in such cases, Hadith masters and jurists attempt an explanation to reconcile apparently conflicting Hadith [taTbiq]. because there is a great danger in rejecting such hadith outright [like some audacious amateurs with a smattering of the sciences are doing these days.] and that danger is obvious - you risk endangering all their narrations.

    therefore, there are specialist in these sciences who do these reconciliations and we have seen a brilliant example by qaDi `iyaD raHimahullah.

    ----
    coming back to imam al-jaSSaS, if you read the entire discussion on magic and its effects, you will notice that it is a generic comment he makes without specifically rejecting the narration of bukhari. this is your favorite fallacy: generalization [or as you would love it qaidah kulliyah].

    our elders - because they were experts and not amateurs - did not reject these Hadith of bukhari; instead they attempted explanations.

    anyway, if you notice the scholars of ahl as-sunnah did not reject that there was magic done upon RasulAllah sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam. and we [i mean followers like us AND our teachers, the scholars of ahl as-sunnah] agreed that this magic did not have any effect on his blessed heart or his lofty intellectual faculties `alayhi afDalu's salatu wa's salam.

    my contention with you is that you have denied this effect of magic 'absolutely' which even imam al-jaSSaS did not and with a clumsy sleight of hand equated his rejection of CERTAIN WORDS that he rejected that magic was done upon RasulAllah sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam. in the very text you have quoted; albeit in that which you did not care to paste:

    [FONT=&quot]وانتحاله وجائز أن تكون المرأة اليهودية بجهلها فعلت ذلك ظنا منها بأن ذلك يعمل في الأجساد. وقصدت به النبي عليه السلام; فأطلع الله نبيه على موضع سرها وأظهر جهلها فيما ارتكبت وظنت ليكون ذلك من دلائل نبوته، لأن ذلك ضره وخلط عليه أمره ولم يقل كل الرواة إنه اختلط عليه أمره، وإنما هذا اللفظ زيد في الحديث ولا أصل له
    [/FONT]
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  4. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member


    dear bhayya, I believe with all my conviction the above without qualification. coming from a learned brother like yourself it is a sweeping statement to say the least..once you investigate the matter from the books of ashaira and maturidi and hambali mutakallimeen, you will find that this 'ALL' kulliya does not stick at all. i would request that if you can kindly just give me the authors and names of their books in this matter; i know you cannot provide all but atleast six would do...

    the reason i am saying it because sometimes we have choices to make amongst various shades of opinions and sheeshay kay ghar waley..muhawara to aap nay suna ho ga.

    jazakAllah.
     
  5. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    why, do you doubt it?
     
  6. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    We do not believe Hazur Paak(ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam) to be God but He is everything that is perfect other than that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2007
  7. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    please provide evidence for this statement as well.??



    as for your evidence about Rasul Allah((ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam) being under the spell of magic..well brother as i stated above in the light of Quran sharif and absolute perfection and spotless immaculate Holy Prophet((ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam). i cannot accept that magic had any affect on Molai Kul (ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam)....dont you think that there has to be a rational conviction rather than just trying to fit an unfitable to safeguard the authenticity of mohaddiseen at the expense of demeaning the Shaan of The one for whom this world,nay, this universe was created??

    If you are going to do taqleed in aqeedah then Imam Abu Bakr al-Jassas al-hanafi(R) who died almost two hundred years before Qadhi Ayyadh al-maliki had the opinion about the reports and spell of magic on Hazur Paak((ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam) that they are ALL FABRICATIONS and designed to undermine Miracles and Personality of the Holy Prophet(((ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam)...I am who is a no one is not the only person to deny that these types of ahadith are aginst shaan e Risalat....there is nothing wrong with saying that a mohaddis made a mistake then giving a 'daagh' in the ABSOLUTE PERFECTION of THE PERFECT(ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam)...think brother that I am only trying to defend Rasul Allah(ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam) and i am not spending my time and energy to prove that Our Prophet did not know what he was doing or where He was goin or where He was coming from or did go anywhere but did not know...nauzobillah min zalik. and remember khayyala yukhayyalo takhyeelan..is an afliction of the mind!....merey 'kahyaal' mein.

    وقد أجازوا من فعل الساحر ما هو أطم من هذا وأفظع ، وذلك أنهم زعموا أن النبي عليه السلام سحر ، وأن السحر عمل فيه حتى قال فيه : { إنه يتخيل لي أني أقول الشيء وأفعله ولم أقله ولم أفعله } وأن امرأة يهودية سحرته في جف طلعة ومشط ومشاقة ، حتى أتاه جبريل عليه السلام فأخبره أنها سحرته في جف طلعة وهو تحت راعوفة البئر ، فاستخرج وزال عن النبي عليه السلام ذلك العارض وقد قال الله تعالى مكذبا للكفار فيما ادعوه من ذلك للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فقال جل من قائل : { وقال الظالمون إن تتبعون إلا رجلا مسحورا } ومثل هذه الأخبار من وضع الملحدين تلعبا بالحشو الطغام واستجرارا لهم إلى القول بإبطال معجزات الأنبياء عليهم السلام والقدح فيها ، وأنه لا فرق بين معجزات الأنبياء وفعل السحرة ، وأن جميعه من نوع واحد والعجب ممن يجمع بين تصديق الأنبياء عليهم السلام وإثبات معجزاتهم وبين التصديق بمثل هذا من فعل السحرة مع قوله تعالى : { ولا يفلح الساحر حيث أتى } فصدق هؤلاء من كذبه الله وأخبر ببطلان دعواه وانتحاله
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2007
  8. SA01

    SA01 Veteran

    Subhanallah brother Abu Hasan.........you have just hit the nail on the head! How simple and perfect is the Aqeedah of the True Ahle Sunnah ....Masha'allah! :)

    MAY ALLAH TA'ALA OPEN OUR MINDS TO CONTEMPLATION AND UNDERSTANDING AND MAY HE HELP US TO ILLUMINATE OUR IMAN WITH EXTREME LOVE AND RESPECT FOR THE HOLY PROPHET, Salallahu alayhi wa aalihi wassalam, AND HIS FAMILY AND COMPANIONS AND THOSE THAT FOLLOWED HIM. AAMEEN!!
     
  9. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    just because you cannot prove your point, you are trying to make us look bad. there is a name for that fallacy - you can look it up.

    --
    however, here is OUR standpoint:

    1. we believe that RasulAllah sallAllahu `alayhi wa sallam was free from all imperfections.

    2. we believe that RasulAllah sallAllahu `alayhi wa sallam is absolutely ma'Sum.

    3. however we also believe that being affected by magic does not negate any of the above two statements. and as such, we are mere students; we repeat the ruling of scholars who are authorities on hadith and tafsir and who are more reliable than you and i.

    ---
    qaDi `iyaD in his celebrated kitab ash-shifa says: [vol.2, part three, chapter two] section: that he was afflicted because of magic.
    ...
    ...
    verily magic is an ailment among ailments; and an illness. it is possible for him to be affected by magic just like it is possible for him to be affected by any of the illnesses that is not repugnant nor that which is a blemish on his prophethood. [innama's siHru maraDun mina'l amraD. wa `ariDun mina'l `ilal. yajuzu `alayhi ka-anwaa'yi'l amraDi mimma laa yunkar wa la yaqdaHu fee nubuwatih]
    further down he explain the hadith of bukhari [notice that he does not deny it or reject it - after all, he was an imam of Hadith] he says:
    verily, it is now manifest to you that the subject of these narrations is that magic affected his external organs not on his heart or his belief or his mind [la `ala qalbihi wa i`ytiqadihi wa `aqlihi]; verily it affected his sight and he was forcibly restricted from going to his women;

    this is what the meaning: 'he expected that he could go unto his household but he could not go unto them' [yukhayyalu is translated as 'imagined' as in 'hallucination' - whereas qaDi `iyaD says that yukhayyalu means 'he expected that he could']. that is, he would - as was his blessed wont - go unto his womenfolk as has been mentioned earlier of his virility; however, when he went near them, he would be afflicted because of magic and he would not be inclined towards it anymore - like it happens to one after an argument [with their spouse].

    Allah ta'ala knows best.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  10. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    absolutely masoom and free from affects of magic....it is my Imaan that Rasul Allah(sallalaho alyhey wa aalihi wasallam) free from any imperfections.
     
  11. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    the part that you did not state: do you deny that magic had absolutely no effect on the Prophet sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam?

    a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y is the key word, if you have failed to notice.
     
  12. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member


    yes, you are right plain simple sentences written by simple ordinary men......this was in the first post...what part of it that you cannot understand my learned honourable brother?
     
  13. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    actually, i was making a point and i thought you would get it. in other words, i do not really dispute the word mas'Hur to mean bewitched. so please let us get that out of the way.

    as for being influenced by magic - you have still ignored my question and keep answering something which you imagine to be my stand. i repeat my question in all sincerety: do you deny it absolutely that RasulAllah sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam was afflicted because of magic?

    as for sahih al-bukhari, again i am not a part of your grand scheme of 'kulliyah'. it was another separate point to refute the hollowness of your idea that 'appeal to authority' is not a proof. in other words, i have not yet commented on the traditions from al-bukhari. if you notice you have dissed something with a condescending comment 'oh you are appealing to authority' and yet you ask us to bring proof from aqidah books of nasafi and taftazani! vacillating standards i must say. after all you are not reading the kalimah of taftazani, are you?

    when you have demonstrated that you cannot understand plain english sentences written by simple and ordinary men, how can anybody trust you to understand the high arabic of the qur'an and hadith and the language of lofty men with superior intelligences?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  14. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    the two versions in bukhari sharif are that Rasul Allah(S) imagined doing things and imagining that He(ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam) had been to His(ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam) wives whilst He(ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam) had not......


    these are part of the same report...you cannot believe in this yet believe in something from your imagination but call it from sahih bukhari.
     
  15. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member


    Imam Abu Bakr Jassas hanafi ( d.370 AH) who is Jurist rather than a mohaddis says in ahkam al-Quran about the hadith of magic spell upon the Prophet(S) that these types of reports were fabricated by mulhideen and in response Jassas presents the same aayah in refutation:

    وقد أجازوا من فعل الساحر ما هو أطم من هذا وأفظع ، وذلك أنهم زعموا أن النبي عليه السلام سحر ، وأن السحر عمل فيه حتى قال فيه : { إنه يتخيل لي أني أقول الشيء وأفعله ولم أقله ولم أفعله } وأن امرأة يهودية سحرته في جف طلعة ومشط ومشاقة ، حتى أتاه جبريل عليه السلام فأخبره أنها سحرته في جف طلعة وهو تحت راعوفة البئر ، فاستخرج وزال عن النبي عليه السلام ذلك العارض وقد قال الله تعالى مكذبا للكفار فيما ادعوه من ذلك للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فقال جل من قائل : { وقال الظالمون إن تتبعون إلا رجلا مسحورا } ومثل هذه الأخبار من وضع الملحدين تلعبا بالحشو الطغام واستجرارا لهم إلى القول بإبطال معجزات الأنبياء عليهم السلام والقدح فيها ، وأنه لا فرق بين معجزات الأنبياء وفعل السحرة ، وأن جميعه من نوع واحد والعجب ممن يجمع بين تصديق الأنبياء عليهم السلام وإثبات معجزاتهم وبين التصديق بمثل هذا من فعل السحرة مع قوله تعالى : { ولا يفلح الساحر حيث أتى } فصدق هؤلاء من كذبه الله وأخبر ببطلان دعواه وانتحاله
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  16. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    well, here are three english independent translations of asad, picktal and yusuf ali of the verse in question:

    M. ASAD:17:47 We are fully aware of what they are listening for when they listen to thee:Asad(17,57) [57] for when they are secluded among themselves, lo! these wrongdoers say [unto one another], "If you were to follow [Muhammad, you would follow] only a man bewitched!"

    Yusuf ALI:17:47 We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say, "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!"

    Picktall:17:47 We are best aware of what they wish to hear when they give ear to thee and when they take secret counsel, when the evil doers say: Ye follow but a man bewitched.
     
  17. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member


    ok, show me this kulliya from classical sources if you are truthful! lets see if this claim can be justified from aqeedah books such as juwayni, nasafi, baqilani,jurjani, taftazani etc
     
  18. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    qaidah kulliyah at it again.

    SOME said that minor sins are permissible for prophets BUT ALL agreed that OUR prophet sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam is free from ALL major and ALL minor sins. SOME also opined that prophets alayhimu's salatu wa's salam could have committed sins BEFORE they were prophets; but MAJORITY disagreed and said prophets are free from sins even before they were prophets.
    ---
    compare this with your qaidah kulliyyah:
    ---
    and 'appeal to authority' is a part of our tradition whether you like it or not. if you take away imam bukhari's saHiH because it is 'appealing to authority' - then you cannot talk about anything. i dispute your understanding of the word mas'Hur meaning bewitched. how can you prove that it is what you think it is and not what i think it is that what you think is not what it exactly is.

    also, you are putting words in my mouth. i am ASKING you whether you reject this thing about magic absolutely or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  19. Misbah al-Hidaya

    Misbah al-Hidaya Active Member

    Narrated by aisha raz :Magic was worked on prophet so that he began to fancy that he was doing a thing which he was not acyually doing.


    My main concern is this statement...and the fact that Quran sharif quotes kuffar as saying: Rajulan mas'hura.

    secondly, as for your 'appeal to authority' argument and thus proving affects of sehr on the Holy Messenger(ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wa sallam)...well, in that case they have also stated in their books that 'minor sins' are also possible for the Prophet(ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam).....therefore by the same token, you also hold to the belief that not only magic but minor sins were also a possibility for the Noble Prophet(ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam)....

    edited by noori: sorry to replace (S) which does not mean anything. I see that you are only concerned to defend your logic, not the respect of RasoolAllah
    ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa sallam, otherwise copy/past is just 2 seconds job.
    thank you brother, i have also taken liberty to add 'aalihi' with it because my symbol S stands for the whole darood, which i read when write it. a durood without mention of progeny is likened by Rasul Allah(
    ŞallAllāhu álayhi wa aalihi wasallam) as one without a tail...i.e....flawed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007
  20. abu Hasan

    abu Hasan Administrator

    Haasha li'llah. na'udhu billah min shururi anfusina. i would not dare to even make such a statement and perhaps would use more milder words to convey a point.

    never did i make that statement neither did i suggest anything that abominable. al i`yadhu billah.

    in your haste of qaidah kulliyyah you muddle up everything else. i was just enquiring about your position whether you reject absolutely that RasulAllah sallAllahu `alayhi wa sallam was affected by magic or not. the question of whether this influenced other faculties or whether he merely became sick is a further point.

    don't let the qaida kulliyah get you...
     

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